Purchase Confiscated Firearms From WV Police?


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Uncle Richard
November 29, 2012, 08:15 AM
Legislation was passed this year that allowed authorities in WV to sale confiscated firearms to dealers instead of destroying. I've searched the web and can not find who conducts them and where these sales take place. Does anyone know?

Sorry if this question doesn't fit the Legal forum. Wasn't sure where to ask.

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md2lgyk
November 29, 2012, 12:21 PM
Interesting. I too live in WV (Harpers Ferry) but had not heard of this. Have you tried asking dealers in your area?? Or local LE?

Uncle Richard
November 29, 2012, 01:03 PM
I have not checked with the local LE, however, I will.

FYI.......Inaddition to sale of confiscated firearms (senate bill 149), WV also passed legislation (Senate Bill 353) which allows those with concealed carry permits be exempt of a NICS check when purchasing a firearm.

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/state-legislation/2012/4/west-virginia-governor-signs-nra-backed-bills-into-law.aspx?s=&st=10512&ps=

Shadow 7D
November 29, 2012, 03:50 PM
you would have to contact the local PD or the state PD property division and see who handles their sales, most contract out (or over to the state property division) to conduct the auction. They can tell you who the auction company is. It won't be up to the city/county/state to advertise, past maybe a small legal notice in the local newspaper, but the auction company, who is vested in this, as they get a percentage of the winning bid.

JustinJ
November 29, 2012, 04:56 PM
My primary gun store is a Military/LE/EMT supplier. Departments regularly trade in confiscated weapons in exchange for store credit and the store then sells the guns to the public. Unfortunately they have started doing most of their sells on Gunbroker but when they do in store sells there are generally some great deals. I recently picked up a great condition Mini14 for under $400 and a 10/22 for $150. A good chunk of my collection was bought through similar deals. They also of course have excellent deals on LE trade in weapons such as Glocks. Occasionally Dept's will trade in excess stuff with little or no use. I once got a brand new Glock 21SF Gen 3 for $400, a like new M&P .40 for $300 and a like new Glock 22 Gen 4 for $425. Anyways, you may want to seek out LE supply stores in your state as i would guess most departments just trade in confiscated guns for store credit.

splithoof
November 29, 2012, 10:32 PM
I sure wish Los Angeles County would auction off confiscated firearms. After watching truckloads go into the smelter (including some really nice pieces) it sickens me to know that our elected "protectors" are wasting potential dollars, all while they cry for more $$ from the taxpayers who elected them.

Bubbles
November 29, 2012, 11:09 PM
For the WVSP you may have to register as a state gov't contractor. I'll have to double-check what the annual fee is to get access to the contract list.

For the local departments you will need an "in" with the Sheriff or Chief of Police. The good ol' boy network is pretty tight.

And yes, as the OP stated, the state legislature passed a law that LE agencies couldn't destroy seized guns, they had to be sold off to FFL's once no longer needed as evidence. Only firearms that are illegal (e.g. unpapered machine gun or one with an obliterated serial number), or ones that were deemed unsafe to fire, can be destroyed.

Twiki357
November 30, 2012, 03:18 AM
Arizona just recently passed a similar law for selling confiscated firearms, [I think] it is restricted to bulk lot sales to dealers.

Ryanxia
November 30, 2012, 09:43 AM
Happens all the time here, didn't know some states had laws against it. Here it is up to the police chief's discretion though, I know some departments still destroy them instead of selling which is retarded. Tax payers money out the window not to mention there's probably some American history being destroyed.

Blue Line
November 30, 2012, 10:41 AM
I worked for WV DNR a long time ago, mid-80's. We auctioned confiscated guns at the Div 3 HQ. I can tell you at an auction this stuff went really high, too high for most of it was junk or for the same price you could buy new. I could only guess maybe people were buying back guns they had forfeited?

VA27
November 30, 2012, 01:55 PM
Around here, some agencies have figured out that soliciting bids from dealers for the whole lot will net as much or more money than an auction.

While an auction can generate a bigger gross, (people will bid amazing amounts for junk) by the time the agency figures in their costs (officers detailed for inventory, transport and on site security before and during the auction) and the auction company takes their cut, it's just more cost effective and a lot less hassle.

grubbylabs
November 30, 2012, 02:59 PM
sounds like a good way to increase revenue, to bad most politicians can't pull their heads out of their u know whats long enough to figure out that there are tons of ways to save and even make money for the municipality like this.

9MMare
November 30, 2012, 06:47 PM
Happens all the time here, didn't know some states had laws against it. Here it is up to the police chief's discretion though, I know some departments still destroy them instead of selling which is retarded. Tax payers money out the window not to mention there's probably some American history being destroyed.

We dont know where 'here' is.

rduchateau2954
December 1, 2012, 09:15 AM
I've been wishing WI would do the same. Such a waste to destroy them.

Good luck with your hunt.

md2lgyk
December 1, 2012, 09:55 AM
"In addition to sale of confiscated firearms (senate bill 149), WV also passed legislation (Senate Bill 353) which allows those with concealed carry permits be exempt of a NICS check when purchasing a firearm."

How is that possible? Isn't NICS a Federal thing? How can a state exempt somebody from it?

Sam1911
December 1, 2012, 11:15 AM
How is that possible? Isn't NICS a Federal thing? How can a state exempt somebody from it?

The Brady Law allows certain alternatives to the federal check. If a state's own background checking is deemed equivalent, the state agency acts as a "Point of Contact" for this.

As well, many states offer firearms permits of various kinds which are deemed to supersede the federal check as the state has already conducted an equivalent check.

Check your state here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/brady-law/

Carl N. Brown
December 1, 2012, 11:36 AM
I wonder what it would take to get Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit to NICS exempt eligible? http://www.atf.gov/firearms/brady-law/permit-chart.html

I had to file fingerprints to TBI and FBI to get my THCP, plus background checks. For Brady compliance, the State of Tennessee is the POC point of contact, meaning state BG before FBI BG check.

Oh, well it is still easier than the old application for permission to purchase, with CLEO signoff and potential fifteen day waiting period.

lemaymiami
December 1, 2012, 11:36 AM
I'm certain that most on this site will applaud any possible sales of confiscated firearms by police departments (or whatever agency does this sort of stuff....). I have to say, though, that for most chiefs of police..... nothing provides smaller benefit while increasing the risk to your job.

In short, unless agencies/political entities are in dire financial straits there's little to gain and lots to lose selling confiscated weapons. Guns last a long time (the few weapons I own will long outlive me... ). Careful research can trace a weapon through the various owners from when it first left the factory to whoever has it now. As a result, if I were a chief and my job was only as strong as the political judgment of whatever council or administration I worked for... you can guess what my decision would be. During my 22 years in law enforcement I worked for five chiefs of police and not one of them would want to sell the first weapon that might end up in the wrong hands. The fact that you or your agency had absolutely nothing to do with whoever legally purchased that former confiscated firearm wouldn't save you from the adverse publicity in the slightest. Selling weapons that were City owned property was bad enough -but confiscated weapons?

Like I said, as much as we'd like to see an opportunity to purchase these kinds of weapons.... I think that you'll see very few of these kind of sales.

As a young police sergeant I was in charge of our property room for about two years (guns, dope, evidence of every kind, etc.). It was my job to carefully account for every weapon we held, return them to their rightful owners if proper, or hold them for eventual disposition. In some cases that meant converting usable quality weapons to City property (and a few years later I was issued a Beretta model 92 -European version with mag release at the bottom of the handgrip..), or store them for eventual destruction. None of the few chiefs I knew would consider even for a moment selling confiscated guns. At the end of my two years I did destroy an entire large garbage can filled to the top with confiscated firearms....... That was in the early eighties down here in south Florida.

I'll be interested to follow this topic and I'm sure that many here will disagree with what I've just said - but it's an honest view from someone who was inside "the system".

coebam
December 1, 2012, 11:46 AM
Just some FYI:

Even if a person has a valid concealed carry license, that does not entirely eliminate the "NICS" back ground check process. The purchaser still must complete and sign the 4473 application form. The only thing the the CCL does, is allow a transfer without actually either calling in to the NICS center or filing electronically. The FFL dealer must have the signed 4473 on file with a copy of the CCL attached. Line 22 on the 4473 states: "No NICS check was required because the buyer has a valid permit from the state where the transfer is to take place, which qualifies as an exemption to NICS" Then on line 23 the FFL dealer fills in the info from the CCL license. The reason behind this is the person with a CCL has already passed a comprehensive background check.

xfyrfiter
December 1, 2012, 12:15 PM
NM has been trying to do this with the ccw for a while but the bleeding hearts in Santa Fe want nothing to do with it. CCW check is much more thorough than NICS, ie. fingerprints, FBI background, renewal every two years etc. all it is is a revenue generating tax.

Carl N. Brown
December 1, 2012, 12:25 PM
I suspect that the confiscated weapons will be disposed in the manner of surplus or obsolete police guns sales, and will end up same as other used guns in gun dealer inventory.

for most chiefs of police..... nothing provides smaller benefit while increasing the risk to your job.

I don't know about chiefs, but the city patrolmen, detectives and corrections officers I have known over the years recognized that most legal store sales go to lawabiding citizens for lawful purposes. Last time I attended the local gun show, a dealer had a table of police surplus arms for sale.

I guess the attitude depends more on the local view of guns. Here in Tennessee gun ownership for self defense, pre-service marksmanship practrice, recreational shooting, collection as historical curios is accepted by most civilians and most of the police.

Statistically guns are more likely to be owned and used lawfully rather than criminally. The NRC "Firearms and Violence" review in its treatment of "gun buy backs" pointed out that, given 65 million privately owned handguns and 6,500 handgun homicides in 2004, a gun "buyback" would have to buy 10,000 handguns before claiming it took one potential murder weapon off the streets. Considering all gun crimes, including those where no one is killed, wounded or where the gun not even used or fired just present, gun control supporter Robert Sherrill conceded in "The Saturday Night Special" 1975 that crime represented 1 of 400 guns at most.

lemaymiami
December 1, 2012, 12:54 PM
Carl, you're absolutely right. The attitude of most chiefs that I've known probably hasn't changed much, though (even if I'm nearly at the age to be considered an "old timer").

grubbylabs
December 1, 2012, 01:36 PM
"In addition to sale of confiscated firearms (senate bill 149), WV also passed legislation (Senate Bill 353) which allows those with concealed carry permits be exempt of a NICS check when purchasing a firearm."

How is that possible? Isn't NICS a Federal thing? How can a state exempt somebody from it?

Here in Idaho I only have to fill out the form and I am ready to go.

I'll be interested to follow this topic and I'm sure that many here will disagree with what I've just said - but it's an honest view from someone who was inside "the system".

Well I know I disagree with you on this. It is the "system" and its attitude towards an armed population that creates most of the problems for lawful fire arm purchases and owner ship. Why does it matter where the gun came from if it was purchased legally from a legal source?

Carl N. Brown
December 1, 2012, 02:25 PM
Some chiefs are afraid of the political/media fall out if a confiscated weapon later turned up at a crime scene.

Honestly, I am still surprised that so many police trade-ins are offered for sale at gun stores. Even though I think all in all the guns will not be used for harm.

About fourteen national surveys project 764,000 to 4.7 million defense gun uses per year, with the average being about 2 million (outliers, both from government surveys, are 108,000 and 23 million). Compare that to 430,000 gun crimes reported in the FBI UCR, or max projection of 800,000 from some years' NCVS surveys, legally sold guns are still more likely to be used benificially rather than harmfully. (BTW most defensive gun use and most of the gun crimes don't involve shootings.)

Carl N. Brown
December 1, 2012, 02:42 PM
We'll always have Mexico.

In Mexico City newspaper El Universal's "They Rent Weapons to Kill", 4 May 2010, a report on the Tepito illegal gun market reported on one of the illegal dealers: "A percentage of the weapons, the seller said, come from Mexico via Ministry of Defense personnel who provide [them] in part from weapons seized in raids, or stolen from the ministry's own arsenal."

mister_murphy
December 1, 2012, 03:22 PM
Around here, some agencies have figured out that soliciting bids from dealers for the whole lot will net as much or more money than an auction.

While an auction can generate a bigger gross, (people will bid amazing amounts for junk) by the time the agency figures in their costs (officers detailed for inventory, transport and on site security before and during the auction) and the auction company takes their cut, it's just more cost effective and a lot less hassle.

Thats what I have seen in NC with agencies that get a number of firearms eligible for sale. They have a large distributor (with a FFL) buy the entire batch in exchange for store credit. Prices are typically low from what I have seen, but there again, its a ready, legal buyer, who wont complain (unless there is a contract violation).

Smaller departments here tend to cut them up, as trying to sell them may cost what the few firearm(s) would bring in or more.

rduchateau2954
December 2, 2012, 04:34 PM
Pssh, all they need is a guy like me. I will sell them all on gunbroker for them. Of course I will test fire them all first. ;)

They wouldn't even have to put me on payroll, just pay me in guns. :cool:

Shadow 7D
December 3, 2012, 01:59 PM
Local department contracts with an auction company, they cut the city a deal and collect the standard buyers premium.

All the money from the auctions and other property dispersal goes into the training budget, to the point that it help fund an academy to fill vacant funded positions...
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So, which is the better "public good"
A Police academy (they already had candidates from prior cycles) to fill vacant and funded spots

a trash can of scrap metal (BTW, at some point the property guy got smart, they ATF 'destroy' the frame and sell off the parts kit for the one that they do destroy)

DurangoKid
December 3, 2012, 04:09 PM
When it comes down to a citizens rights or the political career of a public servant who wins? The citizen will not win. As posted my career would be ruined if one of these weapons were used in a crime. I think that answers the question. It is better to melt them down than to sell them to honest gun owners.

Shadow 7D
December 3, 2012, 06:06 PM
OK durango
why doesn't the agency strip for parts, demil frames and sell the parts to somewhere like Numrichs?

CZguy
December 3, 2012, 11:37 PM
Shadow 7D has made a good point. That would be an option that would be good for everyone.

DurangoKid
December 4, 2012, 02:29 AM
That would not be PC. These people believe firearms are evil in any form. The career political hacks would not be connected to selling gun parts.:uhoh:

Shadow 7D
December 4, 2012, 04:31 AM
DO push it to the hacks
it's not the 'public'
point out that you are selling scrap metal to a scrap metal dealer (numrichs/Egunparts - 98% chance they are OUT OF STATE) who pays close to top dollar (wholesale)

and that is MONEY from trash, now come on and tell me that a hack wouldn't love to run back like a good lacky and tell their 'patron' they found a way to save money without messing with anybody

'by selling trash, previously thrown away'

wideym
December 4, 2012, 04:59 AM
A local gunsmith worked out an agreement with the PD here years ago to Demil their inventory of seized guns at no cost, if he could strip them down to the reciever first. It was a good deal for the city since they were not out any money and the "gun" was destroyed. It probably helped that the gunsmith's partner was also a Lt. in the sheriffs dept, although most of the guns were junk to begin with: Rem.742 with cut off barrels and stocks, Rohm .22s, Lorcins, Jennings, single shot shotguns cut down ect...

The gunshop I work at recently bought a batch of guns sold by a local small town PD. Once again mostly Rohms, Lorcins, Jennings, quite a few Keltec .32s, beat up sporterized enfields, Marlin model 60s, and the like. There was only one "assault weapon" in the bunch, a fairly nice Norinco SKS missing the gas tube, piston, plunger and spring. We had to send a couple of guns back to the PD, since they didn't check that the serial numbers had been ground off (a Ruger bolt action and a sporterized Enfield).

Uncle Richard
December 4, 2012, 03:43 PM
thanks guys and gals.

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