registered guns


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odorf
November 29, 2012, 09:34 AM
i have been told that there is not a federal law requiring one to register his or her firearms.or a state law in ms. ok good, none of mine are registered and none will ever be.
but.. am i watching to much tv? i see all the time that a person has been arrested for a nonregistered firearm. so now i am confused as a dizzy blonde.
if you dont have to register them, how can you be arrested for nonregistered
guns??
as long as your not a felon, your legal to have a gun.
isnt this RIGHT protected by the constatution?

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Guillermo
November 29, 2012, 09:45 AM
there is no Federal registration of non NFA firearms. (machine guns, AOW, etc are exceptions)

In fact, they are required to purge the records after a NICS check, although I doubt they do.

Some states have registration. Their penalties are widely varied. I do not believe that Mississippi is a registration state.

Guillermo
November 29, 2012, 09:58 AM
This is not to be taken as legal advice...but the NRA usually is up on such things

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/mississippi.aspx

Sam1911
November 29, 2012, 09:59 AM
Several answers:

1) TV is TV. It rots your brain and helps millions of people to know and understand things that are completely untrue. Many things happen in TV shows that are needed by the story writers to make the plot work.

Examples:
a) The TV cops need a charge on which to hold a suspect = voila, a random unregistered weapon violation.
b) The TV cops need to be able to be able to link up a bullet recovered with a particular shooter = voila, a "rare and unique" super special sniper bullet only fired by this one gun that was sold by one store to one guy ... and the cops have access to a database that tells them all of that.
c) The TV cops need to know that there's no way suspect "A" could have shot the victim because he's too tall, so they have a scanning machine that takes a 3-D image of the room where the body was found and projects the trajectories of all people moving and shots fired during the crime, and the computer comes up with a graphical readout with a big red "X" showing that it couldn't have been that guy.

2) Many crime dramas do take place in major metropolitan areas and some of our largest and most well-known major metropolitan areas do indeed have firearm registration laws and/or owner licensing schemes in effect, so it is possible that the law being referenced by a TV actor cop is actually in place, or similar to one in place, in the city where that show takes place ... though any such factual accuracy would be undoubtedly a product of the most random coincidence.

AlexanderA
November 29, 2012, 10:03 AM
TV scriptwriters are raised in a social culture that just assumes there is gun registration. This may be true in places like NYC, etc.

AirForceShooter
November 29, 2012, 10:15 AM
Ever watch CSI Miami?
All the cars they kneel in front of have license plates in the front.

AFS

odorf
November 29, 2012, 10:17 AM
so what they are doing is desensitizing us to the fact that guns are not registered. thanks for setting me straight.

Guillermo
November 29, 2012, 10:28 AM
Alexander makes an astute observation.

Most television scripts are written in places like California where there are all kinds of onerous laws.

The writers simply do not know any better.

MedWheeler
November 29, 2012, 10:48 AM
Ever watch CSI Miami?
All the cars they kneel in front of have license plates in the front.

That, and they have a Hummer H2 (which, in reality, has all the acceleration rate of a diesel locomotive) that beats out the entire patrol fleet of Crown Victoria Interceptors as a pursuit vehicle...

No, OP, your firearms need not be "registered" by any Federal law, nor state law in Mississippi..

Guillermo
November 29, 2012, 11:15 AM
A H2 may be one of the only things on the road slower and handle worse than a Crown Vic.

Why we burden our cops with such things is a mystery. Even Glocks work well.

Old Fuff
November 29, 2012, 11:40 AM
Just to frustrate the "your guns have to be registered..." myth...

In Arizona, gun registration is PROHIBITED BY LAW! :what:

Can't ask for better then that... :cool:

smalls
November 29, 2012, 12:56 PM
In Arizona, gun registration is PROHIBITED BY LAW!

Now just imagine if we had something like a Constitution that said something along the lines of "...shall not be infringed". Or something crazy like that! That would blow me away.

Oh, wait...

Colonel
November 29, 2012, 01:04 PM
They show lots of stuff on TV regarding guns that's a little bit "off":

Revolvers that shoot 490 rounds before needing to be reloaded, for example ... or cops and bad guys never actually loading their semi-autos until they get REALLY MAD ... and then we get the hackneyed, dramatic SNICK-SNACK of the slide! :banghead:

mgmorden
November 29, 2012, 01:07 PM
To many who aren't intricately familiar with firearms laws it sounds like a reasonable thing. Even people who own guns - many figure that since they're filling out a 4473 then the gun is registered. Even my relatives (all of whom hunt and own guns) thought that once you got a CWP you had to go have a gun "registered in your name" in order to carry it.

With all that in mind, its not hard to make a TV show showing gun registration. Trust me, many other things on those shows don't work either.

My particular favorite is "Zoom in on this picture and enhance" and then the picture gets clearer. That is absolutely 100% completely mathematically IMPOSSIBLE. You cannot add data to a picture that is not there. You can smooth the pixels, and you can do a lot of effects, but you cannot "enhance" a zoomed in image to show more detail.

Shadow 7D
November 29, 2012, 02:43 PM
Many crime dramas do take place in major metropolitan areas and some of our largest and most well-known major metropolitan areas do indeed have firearm registration laws and/or owner licensing schemes in effect, so it is possible that the law being referenced by a TV actor cop is actually in place, or similar to one in place, in the city where that show takes place ... though any such factual accuracy would be undoubtedly a product of the most random coincidenc

AND
they (actors, writers, producers)
are from said places, and assume that the rest of the country works like New York City or LA

Deanimator
November 29, 2012, 03:49 PM
Learning about firearms law from TV is like learning about cosmology from watching the third Flash Gordon serial.

CoRoMo
November 29, 2012, 04:40 PM
TV scriptwriters...
I thought this thread might be about local news programs but it looks like everyone is commenting on the fictional shows on TV.

Don't exclude the local or national news though, even in locales where registration does not exist.

When a report is broadcast about a shooting or a crime of interest, the news report will often include a statement along the lines of... "Officers found a handgun in his vehicle that was not registered to him".

It's just a simple and quick remark, but it does the same thing; it gives the viewers the impression that firearms are required by law to be registered in the owners' name.

Guillermo
November 29, 2012, 04:55 PM
learning about cosmology from watching the third Flash Gordon

is that bad?

brickeyee
November 29, 2012, 05:22 PM
It is entertainment.

Any connection to reality is purely accidental.

Deanimator
November 29, 2012, 05:46 PM
is that bad?
It depends.

Try walking on the surface of Mars in tights...

Librarian
November 29, 2012, 05:57 PM
Most television scripts are written in places like California where there are all kinds of onerous laws.

The writers simply do not know any better.
Both statements are true, I think - but California does not generally require that guns be registered.

That's distinct from the practice of sending make/model/caliber and purchaser information to Sacramento for handgun purchases through CA-licensed FFLs.

Long guns are not 'registered' at all (beginning 2014, same info will be sent to Sacramento on long guns as now is done for handguns).

See also the Calguns Foundation wiki article -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Firearms_registration

BSA1
November 29, 2012, 06:38 PM
Most states are already registering gun owners though such things as Permit to Purchase Firearm and Concealed Carry Permits.

Guillermo
November 29, 2012, 07:38 PM
Try walking on the surface of Mars in tights

I don't want to do that anymore than anyone wants to see it done.

:eek:

mgmorden
November 29, 2012, 08:59 PM
Most states are already registering gun owners though such things as Permit to Purchase Firearm and Concealed Carry Permits.

Knowing that someone owns a gun isn't all that valuable. You've got a 25% chance of scoring a "yes" just picking randomly.

Besides, there are more gun owners without permits than with. Don't forget that hunting and target shooting are still major reasons for gun ownership, and even among those that own them for protection many are using it for home protection rather than carry.

DurangoKid
November 29, 2012, 09:20 PM
I was contacted by the BATF in 2000. The BATF was following up on a crime scene in California. They found a .44 Caliber revolver that I had bought in 1970. The state where the gun was purchased did not have registration. I can assure you the Feds are not throwing out the 4477 Forums. I was interviewed 2 times regarding what I had done with the revolver. :(

OilyPablo
November 29, 2012, 09:25 PM
WA state claims there is no registration. BUT if you have a CPL, the police have a database of all CPL holders AND it shows exactly what guns you have purchased.

Carl N. Brown
November 29, 2012, 10:18 PM
The Instant Check NICS records are supposed to be thrown out if the gun purchaser is cleared.

The Form 4473 transaction record when the gun was bought, however, will be kept in the dealers bound book and if the dealer goes out of business the 4473s become property of the ATF.

The ATF can trace a crime scene gun from dealer/importer records to distributor records to retail sales record--the 4473--as part of an ongoing investigation. Also a lot of guns reported stolen go on the crime info computer NCIC.

am i watching to much tv? i see all the time that a person has been arrested for a nonregistered firearm.

Aren't we all? NYC is really big on registration. There are about 25,000 registered handguns in NYC. There are an estimated one to two million unregistered handguns "on the streets" in NYC, the number cited sourced variously to ATF or NYPD. SO, if the TV show is set in NYC, nonregistered firearm is a BIG DEAL. Some New York writers are unaware of anything else being the norm.

w8qf
November 30, 2012, 12:04 AM
When you fill out the registration at your gun dealer it never leaves their business until 20 years later when it is destroyed. Also, you might be interested to know that some ex-felons are not banned from gun ownership. It depends on their conviction and if all their rights were restored in the end.

Twiki357
November 30, 2012, 02:06 AM
I can't speak to any other states, but california's registration is pretty screwed up. I recently got one of the CA attorney general reports on the guns that I purchased back in the 1960s when I lived there. Two guns were not on the report and one of the two that were stolen in the mid 1980s was still shown as being in my possession.

I always get a kick out of the CSI programs (Miami & Las Vegas) with their [unregistered] guns since neither FL or NV have any registration.

CoRoMo
November 30, 2012, 10:14 AM
I can assure you the Feds are not throwing out the 4477 Forums.
It is the dealer who 'throws them out', not the feds.
...you might be interested to know that some ex-felons are not banned from gun ownership.
I don't think ANY ex-felons/felons are banned from gun ownership. It's the POSSESSION of a firearm from which they are prohibited. This thread isn't about that though; drift apologies.

zignal_zero
December 1, 2012, 02:21 AM
FL has a state law AGAINST registering firearms. I always got a kick out of the tattle tales who would try to rat out an X friend to me. They'd tell me "he smokes weed" I'd be like "oh my God call the DEA!" Then they'd tell me "he has a gun and it isn't registered" then I'd get to say "it BETTER not be!" Eventually they'd figure out I wasn't a dog they could just sick on people they didn't like anymore :D

Unfortunately, you would be very surprised how much info makes it from the 4473 to the ATF :( I know because I was one of only two officers, at my old agency, who was authorized to use the ATF's "trace" system. I had my own login on their website and, when I entered a serial number, I would get the last time it was sold from a dealer AND the name of the purchaser. I guess technically they're not registering guns but rather recording transactions :(

brickeyee
December 1, 2012, 02:26 PM
It is a 4473, and the 'bound book' lives forever.

ElToro
December 1, 2012, 03:40 PM
in california it is de facto registered with the state DOJ when you buy a handgun from a dealer or do the lawful thing and do a PPT at an FFL. Long guns will be starting 1-1-13.
beleive it or dont it IS still legal to own a "un registered" gun but there are enhancements for using one in a crime. it is also legal to buy a 50+ year old long gun in your favorite parking lot without the benefit of a FFL and waiting 10 days. only pre 1899 handguns can you do that in CA. interfamily tarnsfer is a different story and you are supposed to self mail in a piece of paper to .gov with $19 telling them your dad gave you a handgun.

i have no doubt the 4473 data is held somewhere forever.

mljdeckard
December 1, 2012, 04:52 PM
The biggest perpetrator of this notion is on cop shows, Law & Order in particular. They always manage to know who owns every single gun in the city. New York does require registration, but they don't very often show how it works in the vast majority of gun crimes there, where the perp uses......SOMEONE ELSE'S GUN.

They also loudly lament that it is easy to bring in a gun from out of state, because the rest of them aren't as wise as New York.

mgkdrgn
December 2, 2012, 09:31 AM
Most states are already registering gun owners though such things as Permit to Purchase Firearm and Concealed Carry Permits.
Ummm, nope.

You can own a gun without a Carry Permit. And having a Carry Permit does not mean you own a gun (reasonable to assume I agree, but not a sure thing)

All in all, there are actually very -few- places in this country that have gun "registration". Its a myth perpetuated by TV and the media.

Same goes for the "stolen gun list". I'm an FFL, and I don't have any way on this gods green earth of determining if a gun is "stolen" or not.

mgkdrgn
December 2, 2012, 09:35 AM
i have no doubt the 4473 data is held somewhere forever.

The 4473 "data" exists no where else than on the 4473 form. That sits in the FFL's file cabinet for a minimum of 7 years, after which he can destroy it. His "bound book" he has to keep for 20.

The only 4473 info that is sent to NICS for the background check is Name, address, height/weight/ethnicity, M/F, place of birth/residence, ssn if supplied, upin if supplied. The ONLY gun related info is "Long gun, Hand Gun, Other".

OilyPablo
December 2, 2012, 09:58 AM
Most of you CLEARLY don't know WA state.

Absolutely every time a CPL owner buys a gun it goes on a list, by NAME, showing EVERY GUN purchased from a dealer since obtaining the CPL. Every 2 bit cop and podunk force can simply click twice and see what you have purchased. Of course nothing comes OFF the list.

It's incredibly stupid and many here as we learn of this list think it violates the state and US Constitution.

http://seattleguns.net/showthread.php?167436-So-the-police-have-my-CPL-and-firearm-ownership-info-in-a-stop

I have informed the 2nd Ad. Org locally. This could be interesting.

armoredman
December 2, 2012, 11:14 AM
mljdeckard, Law and Order, while a great show for pure entertainment, is produced by that rabid anti, Dick Wolf. Even on the one or two shows where he shows a law abiding gun owner in the right, the gun owner is portrayed as a scumbag just barely on the good side of legal, and the cops hate him anyway. I wonder how Ice-T manages to work under that, considering he's very pro gun. On the other hand, as said, it's entertainment, and even though I can count Constitutional violations on one, sometimes both hands per episode, it's just TV, means nothing.
I love living in AZ...registration is a big no-no.

Quiet
December 2, 2012, 11:28 AM
Most writers for tv shows do not know acutal laws and/or police procedures and just write in what they think it is, which is most often times wrong.

44 Dave
December 2, 2012, 05:48 PM
A friend of mine has a pistol he said he will never part with because it registered to a dead guy in Chicago!
I only have 2 registered guns out of the dozen or so I own.
I am sure my concealed carry permit puts me on a list some where, even here in Wisconsin

oneounceload
December 2, 2012, 09:06 PM
Most states are already registering gun owners though such things as Permit to Purchase Firearm and Concealed Carry Permits.

well, not really.......even if my state knows I have a CCW, they have NO idea what guns I own...............getting a CCW doesn't even mean gun ownership

try again........

opr1945
December 2, 2012, 10:30 PM
I live in Michigan.

To carry concealed you have to have a Concealed Pistol License issued by the state.

To purchase a handgun you must either have a CPL or get a purchase permit from the local police department.

You have 10 days from date of purchase to register the gun with the local police department. By submitting paperwork on the gun you purchased including the serial number.

Failure to do any of the above is a crime.

What do you suppose the state does with this information?

OilyPablo
December 2, 2012, 10:32 PM
Gun Registration is a violation of the 2nd amendment, pure and simple.

Stumpknocker
December 2, 2012, 10:53 PM
Back in 1988 I got stationed out in Las Vegas. We lived 2 blocks inside city limits, so I had to take my pistol downtown for it to be registered and checked against a list of stolen guns. Not sure if that's still required or not, but it was a Las Vegas thing, not Nevada.

Sent from my communication device using Tapatalk 2

armedandsafe
December 3, 2012, 12:34 AM
That is not Las Vegas, but a Clark County rule. Because Las Vegas is in Clark County, they have to follow that law.

It is still wrong, however.

Pops

NMPOPS
December 3, 2012, 05:40 AM
Employment took me to Upstate New York a few years ago. I had a Concealed Carry Permit issued by the county, good statewide, except NYC and all my handguns had to be listed on the permit and that list is attached to your permit. If I wanted to buy a new pistol it required two trips to the dealer one to purchase and get serial #, then to the county clerk to add it to my permit, then back to the dealer, show him my amended permit so I could then take possession. I am sooo glad I moved to Arizona!

mgkdrgn
December 3, 2012, 10:39 AM
It is a 4473, and the 'bound book' lives forever.
Only if your definition of "forever" is 20 years.

opr1945
December 3, 2012, 06:04 PM
"Gun Registration is a violation of the 2nd amendment, pure and simple."

It may be pure and simple but the United States Supreme Court has never agreed that registration is a violation of the 2nd amendment.

Jim Watson
December 3, 2012, 06:44 PM
If the NICS record of a background check is deleted after 24 hours as the law "requires", I am a Chinaman. I am confident that the feds have a record that John Doe bought "a handgun" on December 1st from Acme Guns. If they care to call or drop in on the dealer for a "trace" they have a lot of leverage to make him look up the same in his book and yellow dog files.

The system is not as efficient as it could be to the tastes of the bureaucrats, but it will get the job done. Years ago, the Charter Arms .38 that Arthur Bremer had carelessly bought under his own name to shoot George Wallace with was traced to him in a matter of hours. I wonder if they have better files now? Not really.

Frank Ettin
December 3, 2012, 10:04 PM
Gun Registration is a violation of the 2nd amendment, pure and simple. Not until the Supreme Court says so (opr1945 has it right).

OilyPablo
December 3, 2012, 10:15 PM
Not until the Supreme Court says so (opr1945 has it right).

Yes and I just don't think we should have to wait for the Supremes to rule.

I have my definition of "right". It's a right. Register to practice religion, the freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly and right to petition? Man that would stir people up. Oh maybe not anymore.

brickeyee
December 4, 2012, 05:03 PM
Only if your definition of "forever" is 20 years.

Point to a regulation or law then.

The last time I looked it up in the CFR 4473s had to be kept 20 years, bounds books could NEVER be destroyed, and must be surrendered to BATFE when the license is terminated.

Frank Ettin
December 4, 2012, 07:47 PM
Not until the Supreme Court says so (opr1945 has it right).

Yes and I just don't think we should have to wait for the Supremes to rule.But in the real world, you don't really have a choice. It's the opinions of courts on matters of law that will affect the lives and property of real people in the real world. You opinion on such things will not.

You might think that a law is unconstitutional, but your opinion won't get that law overturned. You might think a law is unconstitutional, but your opinion won't keep you from getting prosecuted or incarcerated for violating it.

OilyPablo
December 4, 2012, 10:28 PM
But in the real world, you don't really have a choice. It's the opinions of courts on matters of law that will affect the lives and property of real people in the real world. You opinion on such things will not.

You might think that a law is unconstitutional, but your opinion won't get that law overturned. You might think a law is unconstitutional, but your opinion won't keep you from getting prosecuted or incarcerated for violating it.

I can tell you live in California. Look what happened to you guys!

What I'm referring to is a state - and in the real world we do have a choice. If a state sees such lists as unconstitutional and passes a law making such lists illegal, well there you go.

Jim K
December 4, 2012, 10:33 PM
Only on TV could a cop enter a room, look at a "body" from 30 feet away, and declare that "he was shot with a 9mm semi-automatic pistol."

Jim

Art Eatman
December 4, 2012, 11:20 PM
Nuthin' like a little thread drift. :D

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