Local hunting accident. This needs to be shared


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R.W.Dale
November 29, 2012, 04:43 PM
Prayers to all parties involved in this tragedy. Obviously investigation is ongoing but I feel compelled to share this because of two gross failings of judgment are evident.

http://5newsonline.com/2012/11/29/johnson-county-man-mistaken-for-deer-fatally-shot/

Cliff notes: man lounges on porch, hears and sees motion in the bushes. Shoots assuming deer and kills a "hiker"

What we should all take away from this is two things.

That orange should always be worn in the woods during season for hunters and non hunters alike.


That the entire thought process behind "brush busting" is a failure of judgment. Not only from a ballistic standpoint but a safety one as well. IMO and this verges on rant, if the target is obscured enough by flora that getting a bullet through is a concern then the shot is not a good one and therefore should not be taken.



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heeler
November 29, 2012, 05:32 PM
I have never worn orange while hunting in my entire life.
What this guy did was foolishly fire at an unknown target.
We know the results of that reckless behavior.

kyle1974
November 29, 2012, 05:35 PM
There is no way a person can mistake a human for a deer. It's more than likley the case of some idiot shooting someone, or shooting at to scare, and it ending up badly.

no one just shoots at moving trees and expects to kill a deer... not buying it. :banghead:

rcmodel
November 29, 2012, 05:37 PM
Some people just shouldn't be allowed around firearms at all!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/girl-halloween-costume-mistaken-skunk-shot-cousin/story?id=17536625

rc

rbernie
November 29, 2012, 05:39 PM
The point of the OP is well taken, but it must be said that the shooter was neither hunting nor can the outcome be reasonably construed as an accident.

R.W.Dale
November 29, 2012, 05:46 PM
I have never worn orange while hunting in my entire life.
What this guy did was foolishly fire at an unknown target.
We know the results of that reckless behavior.

I'm shure the victim would have opted for orange if he had any clue that someone like the shooter was out there.

Even though in the end the wearer benefits from orange its actually there for insurance against stupid people. You might be the safest hunter in the world, that orange you wear is insurance against folks barely smart enough to load their gun. Its the same reason hwy workers wear the stuff.

To knowingly dismiss a prooven safety measure is only marginally less reckless than the shooter




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heeler
November 29, 2012, 05:48 PM
I hunt on private land in Texas and consider myself very safe.
True weird things can happen though.
But I will leave the blaze orange to public lands hunters and such.

buck460XVR
November 29, 2012, 06:40 PM
The shooter was in a swing in his backyard. The victim was on a hiking trail. The hiking trail has been there for quite some time. The trail was used by other folks for reasons other than hunting. Seems this trail is in a residential setting. As rbernie stated, this was no hunting accident. A case of Gross Negligence. Hope the shooter gets the book thrown at him.

Zombiphobia
November 29, 2012, 08:30 PM
This isn't an accident, it was reckless negligence and he should be tried for negligent homicide. On the other hand, I have to wonder, without checking the article, why the hiker was so near this man's house?

R.W.Dale
November 29, 2012, 08:38 PM
This isn't an accident, it was reckless negligence and he should be tried for negligent homicide. On the other hand, I have to wonder, without checking the article, why the hiker was so near this man's house?

I fundamentally agree. However tragedies like this are seldom the result of one factor and there's a strong possibly that had the victim been wearing orange as a last line of defense against bad firearm handling he might be alive today.




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303tom
November 29, 2012, 08:41 PM
Proof you don`t just shoot at movement in the brush, you be damn sure of your target & HEELER, if you don`t wear Hunter Orange in Missouri you get fined, we have`nt had a hunting accident in I don`t know how long.............

matrem
November 29, 2012, 09:25 PM
there's a strong possibly that had the victim been wearing orange as a last line of defense against bad firearm handling he might be alive today.


While I agree with that statement for that particular incident,the more folks that wear orange just contributes to more careless shooters shooting at "non orange"..sheeesh!
It should be positive identification, not the color that makes it a target.

H&Hhunter
November 29, 2012, 09:45 PM
I'll tell you what guys. If some IGNORANT S.O.B. ever does that to me he'd better kill me on the first shot because I'm returning fire. There is no excuse for this EVER and I consider it attempted murder for anybody stupid enough to even think about it.

beatledog7
November 29, 2012, 10:06 PM
...apparent hunting accident...a resident of a nearby home was sitting in a swing in his backyard when he saw something move across the creek from his residence.
The man grabbed a 30-30 rifle and fired one shot at what he thought was a deer, according to deputies.

The shooter was not hunting when this happened; ergo, it's not a hunting accident. The article does not say, but who would be surprised if we find out there was alcohol involved? It was a stupid shot, a slam dunk for a decent prosecutor.

R.W.Dale
November 29, 2012, 11:34 PM
The shooter was not hunting when this happened; ergo, it's not a hunting accident. The article does not say, but who would be surprised if we find out there was alcohol involved? It was a stupid shot, a slam dunk for a decent prosecutor.

I feel compelled to point out that just because the guy is sitting on a swing does not rule out him hunting. With the details given we must assume the gentleman was hunting as the story claims. He may very well have had orange on and the whole shebang hunting from his yard




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alsaqr
November 29, 2012, 11:49 PM
This isn't an accident, it was reckless negligence and he should be tried for negligent homicide.

Bingo!!!!

The answer to why the man was shot could maybe be found here:

Investigators later learned the shooter and victim were acquainted, but the sheriff’s office would not specify the nature of the relationship.

beatledog7
November 30, 2012, 12:28 AM
I feel compelled to point out that just because the guy is sitting on a swing does not rule out him hunting. With the details given we must assume the gentleman was hunting as the story claims. He may very well have had orange on and the whole shebang hunting from his yard

If I were truly hunting from a porch swing, wouldn't I at least be holding my rifle so that when monster buck happens to amble by I can shoot him without the need to "grab" my 30-30?

bogon48
November 30, 2012, 12:32 AM
I agree that this doesn't sound like a hunting accident, more like total negligence - cannot believe no arrest was made.

I wear orange even when walking in my own woods during hunting season because I can't control who slips in there.

When I hunted in some of the public hunting areas near me, it was insane on the opening day of deer season. People were moving and firing semi-autos to drive deer toward people on the other side of a hollow.

Once when spring turkey hunting (gobbler season) in another pubilc area, I made the mistake of gobbling instead of doing hen calls. I was all camoed up in some brush, no orange, and a lunatic came in my direction at a dead run, shotgun pointed at my position. I started yelling, and he went away.

Just saying it pays to be cautious.

heeler
November 30, 2012, 01:21 AM
303 Tom...Missouri is Missouri and Texas is Texas.
9.9 out of 10 people hunt on privately owned land in this state thus we are not stumbling across one another while hunting because we actually know who we are hunting with and tresspassing is looked on pretty dimly and poaching is a felony.
Fwiw I was born in Missouri,actually the farm town called Senath.

22-rimfire
November 30, 2012, 05:38 PM
This isn't an accident, it was reckless negligence and he should be tried for negligent homicide.

That is my take as well. There are lots of reasons to be out tramping around in the woods and hiker may simply be a generic term in this case. Sadly, someone mentioned brush busting calibers as the 30-30 is often considered as such.... seems like it worked.

I suspect there is more to this story, but I hope not and it is simply stupidity. Some people use hunting season as an excuse to disguise their true purpose in shooting. Again, there is a loss of a life and there is no excuse for stupidity.

sleepyone
December 2, 2012, 11:39 PM
After just reading this article, I was surprised to see that Alsaqr was the first one to mention the two were acquainted in post 16. That is the real story. The vast majority of murder victims knew their attacker. I doubt if this was an accident at all.

R.W.Dale
December 2, 2012, 11:46 PM
After just reading this article, I was surprised to see that Alsaqr was the first one to mention the two were acquainted in post 16. That is the real story. The vast majority of murder victims knew their attacker. I doubt if this was an accident at all.

I've not been keeping up with the story to be honest. But if you'd ever been to coal hill Arkansas you'd find it more suspicious if the two men DIDN'T know each other to some extent.




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buck460XVR
December 3, 2012, 09:37 AM
The reason they probably knew each other is, odds are they were neighbors. If folks had read the article they would know the victim was on a PUBLIC HIKING TRAIL that follows the creek. The victim probably used the trail to walk his dog or do his daily walk/run that many suburbanites do. To blame the victim for not wearing blaze orange during this is grasping at straws to justify the shooting.

627PCFan
December 3, 2012, 12:36 PM
I have seen too many people going on nature hikes in public areas, to include public WMA's during hunting seasons not only failing to wear orange, but wearing brown jackets and walking brown dogs because thats what they do all year round. I would like to legislation passed that if your on public land during hunting season the same hunters orange requirement should be applicable to non-hunters.

brnmw
December 3, 2012, 12:51 PM
First: Hiker that close to someones house in the bushes...:confused:
Second: Shooting at an unknown> unidentified target in the bushes...:what:
Stupid on two ends, however very tragic to say the least.

R.W.Dale
December 3, 2012, 01:34 PM
. To blame the victim for not wearing blaze orange during this is grasping at straws to justify the shooting.

Go back and reread my posts. NOBODY'S saying the lack.of orange in any way excuses the shooters gross lack of judgment here.

But if that orange might have given the wearer a better chance of surviving this encounter it absolutely is his sole blame for not having used it. Just like if someone doesn't wear a seatbelt and is injured in an an accident. So freaking what if its not their fault?! That's minuscule consolation when they're the one who have to deal with the injuries or being dead.




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Mike J
December 3, 2012, 01:48 PM
Wearing orange while deer hunting is state law here in Georgia. If I go into the woods for any reason during deer season I still wear it. Even if I'm just getting firewood or whatever. I do not shoot at what I can not see but I think it unwise to underestimate the capacity of my fellow man for stupidity. This thread makes me think about many years ago. My hunting partner was in a tree stand near the property line when bullets started coming through the tree he was in. He exited the stand & looked up to see a turkey fly past. Yes there are idiots that will shoot at a flying bird with a deer rifle. God only knows where those rounds ended up at.

That said from what I read in a recent E mail from the DNR here I believe the majority of hunting accidents in Georgia are the result of tree stand accidents although I am sure there are still some firearm related ones.

Old Shooter
December 3, 2012, 02:00 PM
Shouldn't need to wear blaze orange when walking on gods greeen earth at any time.

If you are hunting or intend to shoot at something wiggling the bushes around, it is YOUR responsiblity to know what you are shooting at....period.

This is the shooters fault, not the hikers.

788Ham
December 3, 2012, 02:46 PM
In the state of Colorado, one must wear a hunter daylight orange vest or jacket, and includes a hat or cap, total must be 500 sq. inches during hunting seasons. This includes guides or other non-hunters in hunting group. Without it and caught, one will be ticketed! One would have to be pretty ignorant to go out into the woods during hunting season without this display of color, IMHO !

There have been a few instances of folks being shot at while wearing these colors, still doesn't take away the responsibility of knowing what you're shooting at either, if you're not sure, you'd best not pull that trigger!

Previous responder mentioned one shouldn't need to wear blaze orange when out walking God's green earth, but if during hunting season, your roll of the dice pal !

ClickClickD'oh
December 3, 2012, 03:05 PM
To knowingly dismiss a prooven safety measure is only marginally less reckless than the shooter

Wait... Seriously? You really are going to maintain that not wearing Blaze Orange is only marginally less reckless than firing a high power rifle at random noises?

Seriously?

One would have to be pretty ignorant to go out into the woods during hunting season without this display of color, IMHO !

The problem isn't not wearing Blaze Orange. The problem is that over reliance on the presence of Blaze Orange has led to stupider hunters that use it as an identification crutch and shoot at anything non-dayglo.

The mentality in the hunting community that allows for these types of events needs to be purged with an iron fist. Every deer we take, Buck or Doe, we glass it long enough to judge it's approximate age, it's body size and if applicable it's rack. Not only B&C score, but characteristics. Deer need to be properly judged before the shot to protect and improve the herd. Blaze Orange is a pathetic stand-in that is completely unnecessary to the competent hunter. There's no way in hell to drop the hammer on a hiker when you should know it's a 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 doe between 165 to 185 and she has a snubbed tail. It's just not possible. To many people are willing to take the fleeting shot on a poorly identified, or even mostly unseen deer. It's not just dangerous, it's bad hunting. Those people are sad excuses for hunters, and most of them need to have their tickets pulled. The fewer idiots you have in the woods, the better the hunting and the better the herd.

And for Gods sake people, stop shooting the yearling and two and a half bucks.

R.W.Dale
December 3, 2012, 03:16 PM
Wait... Seriously? You really are going to maintain that not wearing Blaze Orange is only marginally less reckless than firing a high power rifle at random noises?

.


Yes I am. Stupidity and arrogance are not very far removed from one another.

One person is a danger to everything in the woods. The other is freely offering themselves up to these folks.

It ain't rocket science folks. Orange just like seatbelts and airbags aren't there to guard against the safe responsible hunters/drivers. They're there as safeguards against all the folks who aren't and that YOU WILL NEVER EVER NOT IN A BILLION YEARS have control over.

And to argue that orange is part of the problem. That's just derp derp talk. When the possible outcome is people getting shot and killed you absolutely dumb it down to the lowest common denominator.





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R.W.Dale
December 3, 2012, 03:24 PM
I also hate to do this but I think I need to single out the Texans here.

Your hunting on controlled access private land is almost completely unlike hunting heavily forrested public land. You guys are closer to European hunting than the rest of the country.

Orange is absolutely a necessary safety measure. I don't know how many times in the national forest I've picked out that tiny block of orange showing through the trees that tells you not to shoot in that direction. I don't care how good you think you are at "glassing" you'd never see if it was camo.

Without orange you guys are mistaking being oblivious to the other hunters around for awareness and you Texans are relying on that fence instead of orange to serve the same end.




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buck460XVR
December 3, 2012, 03:40 PM
First: Hiker that close to someones house in the bushes...:confused:
Second: Shooting at an unknown> unidentified target in the bushes...:what:
Stupid on two ends, however very tragic to say the least.


According to the latest report I saw, the victim was 140 some yards away from the shooters residence. Not really that close. Newest press release I saw now claims the victim was on a trail on private property(as opposed to the first release I read where they claimed it was a public hiking trail) and the investigation is now centered on what the victim was doing there, as the local Police Chief says the shooter and the victim had a "relationship"? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

While I admit blaze orange could have saved the victim, the claim that he was as much as fault as the shooter is non-sense. One does not shoot at a sounds. One does not shoot without identifying their target and what is beyond it. The very basics of gun safety. The victim was not wearing a brown suit with a white patch on the rump and antlers. He was wearing blue jeans and a camo coat. In Wisconsin, one is required to wear blaze orange when hunting any game during a gun deer season.......except for waterfowlers. Yesterday I saw three goose hunters walking the trail that surrounds the lake by my house. They were in full camouflage. At the same time I knew the neighbor was out in the next woodlot hunting deer with a muzzle-loader. I could see his blaze orange in his blind. The thought of this thread went thru my mind as I watched the goose hunters make their way to their truck. I doubt if they thought they were in any danger, altho the scenarios between them and the accident in Arkansas were quite similar. I certainly didn't consider them stupid as they were doing what was required to goose hunt and were completely legal. Again.....there is no excuse for shooting a gun at something you have not identified as a target. Period.

heeler
December 3, 2012, 03:56 PM
I have to hand it to you Dale...You are consistent in your views.

R.W.Dale
December 3, 2012, 03:59 PM
Look its not about as you put it "making excuses for the shooter" its about keeping the person who may get shot ALIVE with no extra holes at the end of the day. I may take a more dim view of humanity than you do but its my firm belief that stupid people will always be doing stupid things and you will NEVER change that. But what you can change is what those stupid people see when looking your way.

I've gone so far as to put my orange hat atop my deer blind. Its not like deer pay attention to colors anyways.

Sometimes its more of a "hey I'm here don't shoot this direction" thing than it is "not a deer"




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Art Eatman
December 3, 2012, 04:00 PM
Simple rule: Don't shoot at anything that's not been identified as a proper target. You get right down to the nitty-gritty, orange is irrelevant to responsible behavior. (Not knocking orange; it's obviously been contributory to greater safety.)

Yeah, there are some idiots who will take "sound" shots at a noise, "Just wanted to see what ran out..." People who do that would have to double up on smarts just to reach "stupid". If they screw up, whatever maximum punishment is available should be administered, IMO.

Double Naught Spy
December 3, 2012, 04:24 PM
I'm shure the victim would have opted for orange if he had any clue that someone like the shooter was out there.

Interesting and naive argument. You don't go around wearing a ballistic vest everyday because you know there are negligent idiots and criminals out there with guns, do you? The idiots and criminals are out there. This is a given and a known. We read about them every day.

FYI, it is varmit or pest season 24/7 in parts of the country such as Arkansas. It is poaching season 24/7 everywhere in the world. Do YOU wear orage every day of your life you go outside? You know there are people like that out there who will shoot at movement and who can't be trusted to properly identify targets.

R.W.Dale
December 3, 2012, 04:31 PM
You want to discuss niave. I take it you live in the suburbs.

Are you actually suggesting that you're no more likely to be shot in the off season with nobody in the woods than you are during modern gun deer season where the forests flood with folks who may be out there the only that one season for the entire year?

And yes I do usually wear an orange hat and avoid certain colors.

So to grace the asinine contention that orange = a vest. Yes I go out in public with a gun as insurance and if I were going out in public and expected shooting I would absolutely wear armor ... if I couldn't avoid going


Again you Texans do not understand the fundamental differences. Try to image your hunting spot, no fences, where everyone is free to come n go as they please at any time of the day.



Its quite revealing that ALL the anti orange comments are from Texas. It starkly shows how different the hunting culture there differs from the rest of the country.



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heeler
December 3, 2012, 05:03 PM
I am not anti orange.
I just dont feel the need to wear it.
None at all.
And I have been hunting since I was seven and will be 60 this month.

627PCFan
December 3, 2012, 05:15 PM
I just dont feel the need to wear it.

You havent hunted public land on the east coast.

heeler
December 3, 2012, 05:46 PM
And I would probaly not hunt on public land in the east coast.
This is why I appreciate private land hunting so much.
You have control of the situation.

Double Naught Spy
December 3, 2012, 07:47 PM
You want to discuss niave. I take it you live in the suburbs.

You mean the greater Forestburg metropolitan area? We don't even have a stop light! 220 people are listed on the census, but less than 100 in the actual town. Hell, the whole county only has about 25,000 people.

Are you actually suggesting that you're no more likely to be shot in the off season with nobody in the woods than you are during modern gun deer season where the forests flood with folks who may be out there the only that one season for the entire year?

Nope. I did not make any statements of likelihood. I stated directly that the danger exists all the times from idiots about which you are so concerned. I thought that was fairly clear.

Its quite revealing that ALL the anti orange comments are from Texas

Hmm, I don't think you understand geography.

This whole "should've been wearing orange" business reminds me of the Karen Wood incident.
http://www.yankeemagazine.com/issues/2010-01/interact/10things/down-east-stories/karenwood/all

She, too, was killed by a local idiot.

Wes B
December 3, 2012, 08:58 PM
I think Jeff Cooper covered this in the RULES:

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

DAP90
December 3, 2012, 10:44 PM
You realize of course that most people don’t have the faintest idea when deer season is and don’t give it the least bit of consideration. They certainly don’t own blaze orange or think that they need to wear it while on a nature walk with their family. It’s hard to be proactive against threats that you don’t even realize exist. That’s not their fault really; it’s just not a big part of our culture anymore.

LJH
December 3, 2012, 10:44 PM
This is a tragic story.

But as a Texan I wanted to comment on a few things. I own a little ranch and I always were orange when out on the ranch, hunting or not. In 10 years I have never crossed paths with anyone on my place, but my chances of being mistaken for wildlife go way down if I am in blaze orange. But more importantly (to me) my chances of being spotted go way up if I am hurt and unable to make it back to the road.

Double Naught Spy
December 3, 2012, 11:05 PM
You realize of course that most people don’t have the faintest idea when deer season is and don’t give it the least bit of consideration. They certainly don’t own blaze orange or think that they need to wear it while on a nature walk with their family. It’s hard to be proactive against threats that you don’t even realize exist. That’s not their fault really; it’s just not a big part of our culture anymore.

And when hunting was, blaze orange certainly was not part of it.

wgp
December 3, 2012, 11:14 PM
Orange is the law in Kansas for big game, but not for upland bird hunting. But I always wear it (except for doves) and learned a valuable lesson about wearing it once when hunting private land, as the only person with permission to be there, and lo and behold here came a trespassing hunter out of the cover, all camo and basically invisible. He wondered why I was so unhappy since as he said, he could see me.

Not the only time I've come on trespassers hunting on private land, including my own farm. Do as you think best, but being on private land is no assurance you are alone.

Alaska444
December 3, 2012, 11:14 PM
Sounds very suspicious at the very least and definitely negligent homicide as a beginning. I would hope charges will come forth. Perhaps they will wait to see what kind of relationship these men already had and if there were any verbal type of threats mentioned at some point.

jbkebert
December 3, 2012, 11:18 PM
It's a horrible thing no matter who is more at fault. Shooting at a sound is just plain dumbassity.

I went out and cut a couple loads of firewood over the weekend. It is currently the Kansas rifle season and your damn skippy I was wearing a orange vest and hat. Moving through the brush wearing brown Carharts isn't the smartest thing and the chainsaw isn't running all the time. No it should not be needed but it sure doesn't hurt either.

skiking
December 4, 2012, 02:28 AM
Stories like these make me angry. The guy should spend a long time in prison. I am against any law requiring non hunter to wear blaze orange, we shouldn't impose restrictions on other people because some hunters are complete idiots. We should be pushing for people who kill people in this senseless manner to spend the rest of their lives in prison. It seems like every year somebody "accidentally" shoots a hiker and I have to call BS.

Double Naught Spy
December 4, 2012, 08:45 AM
Oh, they don't just shoot hikers. They shoot hikers, other hunters, hunting observers, livestock, occasionally a rider on a horse, houses, people on their own property, and the occasional game warden. It is a real problem, but one that fortunately improves each year with unter education classes, resulting in less deaths and injuries, but there are still those that don't seem to get it.

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