Trapdoor 50-70 exit wound


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pohill
November 29, 2012, 05:32 PM
Springfield Trapdoor 50-70. At 100 yds with a reduced load, it put a good sized hole in an empty 7.62X54 Mosin ammo can. They say it will kill any animal on this continent.
I reload and cast my own bullets (got lots of great info from Strawhat). I just got 2 lbs of beeswax and made my own lube (5 pts beeswax, 5 pts crisco, 1 pt olive oil). With a stock pad, it's a great gun to shoot.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4262.jpg

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Cosmoline
November 29, 2012, 05:35 PM
I love the original fifty!

I'm really wanting to get some more time in with the rolling block but I cannot find .50-70 brass anywhere and I've worn out most of my limited stock. I had a big order on GB that got cancelled because his supplier backed out.

What are the specs on that bullet and does it have deeper grooves for the BP lube? I've tried to melt off smokeless lube on some rounds I have but the groves don't want to hold the beeswax and oil mix.

Busyhands94
November 29, 2012, 05:49 PM
Now that's a mighty fine looking bullethole! ;) How many grains of powder are you using? And what do you think is the muzzle velocity? I'd get a .50-70, the only problem is I'm pretty sure you can't get any kind of .50 other than a muzzleloader in The Kommiefornia Republik. Although they might have just made the .50 BMG illegal, wow. Brilliant, Mr. Lawmaker. Because if I were going to rob a liqueur store I'd grab that big bore sniper rifle. Forget that Raven Arms .25 Auto, do it up right. :rolleyes:

pohill
November 29, 2012, 05:57 PM
I bought the Lee .515 mold (450gr) and Lyman dies. I bought the brass from from Track of the Wolf, but I only bought 25. I'm waiting on more. I tried SPG lube but I like my homemade lube better. 2 lbs of beeswax should last a long time.
I loaded about 55 grs of FFG in 15 rounds. I'll probably go back to 65 grs (that stock pad is amazing). Muzzle velocity? Not sure. When I shoot at the metal gong at 100 yds with the Mosin, it sounds like this:
Boom splat.
With the 50-70 it's Booooom............splat.
I never reloaded before buying this rifle. Strawhat guided me and got me going.
Trapdoor on top, Belgian .50 bottom.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF3413.jpg

Cosmoline
November 29, 2012, 09:29 PM
I'm having really good results with a 500 grain slug over dropped and compressed 70 grains of 2F. I tried the special cartridge powder but it didn't work as well, though it fit better in the brass.

My lube is similar to yours but I haven't tried crisco in it. I may add that and see if it helps make the stuff stick better in the grooves.

StrawHat
December 1, 2012, 04:54 PM
Glad to hear you are having a good time with the big 50! I know I sure like mine. It drops deer a lot better than the smaller flatter shooting 45-70. My FrankenTrapdoor was out a couple of times over the summer. Probably fired about 18 shots total. Two more shots and I will reload the 20 for next years shooting!

MCgunner
December 1, 2012, 06:15 PM
Springfield Trapdoor 50-70. At 100 yds with a reduced load, it put a good sized hole in an empty 7.62X54 Mosin ammo can. They say it will kill any animal on this continent.

With a well placed shot and a jacket solid, probably will, but I doubt it's the choice of the pros for the big five. :D I mean, heck, the .275 Rigby did it.

Fine old load and some fine rifles you got there. I kinda think of my CVA Wolf as a .50/90 without the case. :D Difference, won't shoot the heavy weights the Sharps will, but if 385 grains won't stop it, I don't wanna hunt it. :D

pohill
December 1, 2012, 09:27 PM
The 50-70 is a great gun. I just wish I bought more brass when it was available. Starline is the only company that makes it and they're saying that it might not be until next spring before they produce more. No one has any available.
With that in mind, I brought the stock of my 50-70 to my gun store - they have an original 45-70 barrel for sale (no stock). It's in great shape. It would fit my 50-70 stock with a little wood trimming but I wouldn't do that.

I don't hunt but if I did, I'd need a big target, like this guy I saw in Yellowstone last August.


http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4027.jpg

MCgunner
December 1, 2012, 09:34 PM
You can't trim something bigger down or something, make the brass? Probably not since anything you might make it out of is probably equally as rare.

Those bison can be some mean, ornery ol' cusses. One charged a Harley out during the Sturgis rally one year, killed the guy. He shoulda had mufflers. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gif

pohill
December 1, 2012, 09:46 PM
I have 25 brass cases, which is fine for a day's shooting. I usually bring the Mosin along. Any idea how long the brass lasts? (on average)

StrawHat
December 2, 2012, 04:20 PM
I have 25 brass cases, which is fine for a day's shooting. I usually bring the Mosin along. Any idea how long the brass lasts? (on average)
Depends on few things. How much do you resize and do you anneal the brass? For single shots I do not resize until the round has trouble chambering. I have gotten 20 and more loads from a single brass. The ODGs would often shoot an entire competition with a single cartridge case.

pohill
December 2, 2012, 05:21 PM
I resize each time I reload.
anneal the brass?
What is this you speak of? Am I missing a step?

Acorn Mush
December 2, 2012, 06:02 PM
Pohill, each time a brass case is resized, the material gets a bit harder then before. The process is called "work hardening". In order to return the brass to its prior soft state it must be heated to a dull red and quickly quenched in cold water. This process is just the opposite of that used to anneal steel. If the heated brass is allowed to cool slowly, it will harden again, but I don't know how hard it will become in comparison to work-hardened brass.

I sure hope I haven't confused you or anybody else with this explanation.:confused: I'm certainly no metallurgist. I am only going on experience here, and a little I've read.

Hope this helps.

pohill
December 2, 2012, 06:11 PM
Interesting. When should it be done to the brass? After a certain number of reloads or does the brass take on a certain characteristic that determines it?

DurangoKid
December 2, 2012, 06:16 PM
Track Of the Wolf always has the 50-70 Brass for sale.

pohill
December 2, 2012, 06:42 PM
It's back ordered everywhere. Starline, the company who makes it, is holding off until the spring to make more.

Annealing
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

jason41987
December 2, 2012, 08:22 PM
i really wouldnt say that entire hole is the exit wound.. i mean, it is metal, and what appears to have happened is it started to make a much smaller hole and pealed the metal back as the bullet wash pushing its way through... would love to see this cartridge fired in ballistics gel though to see what i can really do

pohill
December 2, 2012, 09:13 PM
OK, exit hole. There was no blood, no pain, no wound.

jason41987
December 2, 2012, 10:36 PM
was the bullet recovered?.. im wondering what the expanded diameter was

pohill
December 2, 2012, 11:24 PM
I have a reproduction copy of the original manual that came with the rifle. It lists the initial velocity as "1240 ft" and at 700 yds it was "641 ft."
Penetration in white pine at 10 yds was 14 in., and at 1050 yds was 5 in.
Recoil with 70 grs of powder and a 450 gr ball was 95 lbs, "only 5 lbs more than that from 58 calibre muzzle-loading musket, model 1855."
I don't hunt so I don't know what damage it actually does, but I bet it really stings.

StrawHat
December 3, 2012, 07:50 AM
On deer, the results will make you put away the 45-70. Absolutely awesome and yet, to quote the old writers, you can eat right up to the hole.

I can easily say the 50-70 is one of the easiest BPCR for which to develop accurate loads. The down side is the recoil is a but noticable. A day of shooting one in competition will certainly get your attention. Mine goes out when I am loafing and shooting targets of opportunity. 10 shots would be a lot for me to fire in one day with any of my rifles.

jason41987
December 3, 2012, 04:38 PM
im sure it does a ton of damage... no doubt, in fact, ive been wanting to get something like a sharps or an 1885 chambered in a cartridge like this, for long-range howitzer style target shooting... and may the gods have mercy on whatever it hits

pohill
December 3, 2012, 04:47 PM
I probably asked this before - how does the recoil of the 45-70 compare to the 50-70? I put a pad on the stock of the 50-70 and I can shoot 20 rounds without getting rattled too much.
What about a 50-90, 50-100, 50-110? Are they as much fun as they sound?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-90_Sharps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN0k49VQ_EI

72coupe
December 3, 2012, 08:18 PM
To answer your question about annealing, I shoot mostly bottle necked modern cartridges. I anneal them when I start getting neck splits.

Since the cases you are reloading are rare and valuable I would anneal them after 4 to 6 reloadings. I consider it an onerous task so with 223 cases I shoot them till I get 5% neck splits then throw away the whole lot. This is usually after 15 to 20 reloads.

pohill
December 3, 2012, 09:25 PM
I'm probably at the 4 - 6 reload period, and they are pretty hard to find. I read online of an old time method where you hold the case by the base and dip the neck in melted lead, and when you feel warmth in the fingers holding the case, drop the case in cold water. Sounds pretty basic but a little risky, too.

72coupe
December 3, 2012, 09:38 PM
As an addendum, I have never annealed a straight walled case in my life.

I have annealed thousands of bottle necked though.

StrawHat
December 4, 2012, 07:33 AM
I probably asked this before - how does the recoil of the 45-70 compare to the 50-70? I put a pad on the stock of the 50-70 and I can shoot 20 rounds without getting rattled too much.
What about a 50-90, 50-100, 50-110? Are they as much fun as they sound?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-90_Sharps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN0k49VQ_EI
I find the recoil of the 50 to be a bit stouter than the 45. As for the second number [90, 110,etc], I stay with the 70s. I would expect as the powder charge increases so will the recoil, in similar rifles.

Dave, there is a lot of info regarding annealing on the boolit site.

scotjute
December 4, 2012, 12:57 PM
Recoil of a .50 caliber muzzle-loader shooting ~180 grain ball with 90 grains fff is similar to 12 gage. Have not tried it with 500 + grain bullets.

Cosmoline
December 4, 2012, 02:36 PM
The recoil of the .50-70 out of my roller is not bad even with full 70 grain loads topped with a 500 grain slug. The recoil from the trapdoor carbine firing full power .45-70's is greater. I suspect that's because the carbine is a pound lighter. The Army had lighter carbine loads developed, and I suspect the recoil was a factor.

But neither of them compare at all to smokeless safari loads. At most they give you a low-velocity shove. I can't speak to the .50-90 or .50-110 because I'm not rich enough ;-)

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