38 special too long


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jim8115
December 3, 2012, 01:41 PM
Bought a bunch of 158 flat point from thebulletworks.net . Seated them to the crimp groove, which made the OAL 1.480. They wont chamber in any of my revolvers correctly. That is they either wont allow the cylinder to close, or if it does it drags.

Question is, should I attempt to seat the ones I already made a bit deeper. or just shoot them in one of my 357's, since they will work in them.

I made up quite a few, and would rather fix them for the 38's , if possible

JIM

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rcmodel
December 3, 2012, 01:48 PM
Seeing as how the SAAMI Max OAL of a .38 Spl is 1.550", you have something going on there besides an OAL of 1.480".

Either the bullets are too big in dia to fit in the chamber throats?

Or you are bulging the brass when crimping them?

First thing to do is drop a bullet down the chamber and see if they will enter or can be pushed through the throats.

Then completely color a cartridge that won't fit with a black magic-marker then force it all the way in the chamber.

Then eject it and see where the marker ink is rubbing off.

rc

jim8115
December 3, 2012, 02:02 PM
I have done the marker test. It is the profile of the bullet. the shoulder is hitting the throat,
The only way that I know of to resolve it, is to seat them deeper.

rcmodel
December 3, 2012, 02:07 PM
What do the bullets measure?

Can you push them through the throats by hand?

rc

jim8115
December 3, 2012, 02:14 PM
.358 they are snug, probably cant push them through by hand. With every other bullet I ever loaded for a 38, the shoulder doesnt hit the throat

jim8115
December 3, 2012, 02:17 PM
I wont buy anymore of them. The real question is, can i push an already crimped bullet an additional .020-.030 and go ahead and use them

rcmodel
December 3, 2012, 02:18 PM
Have you cleaned the chambers throughly with a bronze bore brush & solvent??
Chucked in an electric drill?

rc

jim8115
December 3, 2012, 02:21 PM
The chambers are clean , havent used a brush in a drill though

ArchAngelCD
December 3, 2012, 02:36 PM
Rather than try to reseat the already crimped bullet go ahead and shoot them in a .357 Magnum like you said in your OP. (if they will fit)

I'm very surprised any .38 Special bullet won't chamber correctly in your revolver. I agree something else is probably going on.

jim8115
December 3, 2012, 02:42 PM
I will check everything again tonight. I load and shoot 10-15 thousand 38's a year, all different bullets. This is the first time I have encountered this. Did you look at the bullet profile/ Its not a regular SWC.

JIM

ArchAngelCD
December 3, 2012, 02:46 PM
Yeah, I did look at it. I think they call that design a truncated conical bullet.

rcmodel
December 3, 2012, 02:54 PM
Yes, I did look at it.

But all Keith style SWC have a front driving band that sticks out and enters the throats almost that far.

Hornady's swaged lead FP bullets are .358" and stick out of the case that far.


Did you actually measure the bullets at .358", or just take their word for it?

rc

jim8115
December 3, 2012, 02:58 PM
I am pretty sure I measured them as soon as I opened the box. thats my habit. I also have some of the Hornadys you mentioned. Shot some this weekend with no problems. But seated at 1.455 they dont have as much shoulder out front as the problem ones.

Jim

Steve C
December 3, 2012, 03:04 PM
Seated them to the crimp groove, which made the OAL 1.480. They wont chamber in any of my revolvers correctly. That is they either wont allow the cylinder to close, or if it does it drags.

Question is, should I attempt to seat the ones I already made a bit deeper.

On occasion I've found that to get a rather long bullet to seat deep enough it was necessary to crimp the case mouth into the top of the crimp groove. If that is your problem I would just try seating them deeper. It should only take a very small amount to get the round to fit. Start with a small turn on the seating stem, check for fit and add a bit more until the round fully chambers. Since max COL for the .38 spl is greater than your measured OAL the problem cause may be the tapered edge of the bullet catching the cylinder throat.

Under some circumstances I've found that a cartridge wouldn't fully seat in the cylinder due to not setting the sizing die down enough to take out all the bulge at the case base. Often the rounds will seat fine in S&W revolvers but will not in the tighter tolerances of a Colt cylinder. I now always fit test the first couple rounds off the press in a Colt cylinder to make sure they'll fit in all my revolvers.

MMCSRET
December 4, 2012, 01:30 PM
Is it possible you have a revolver originally chambered for 38 S&W? The originals in that chambering had cylinders short enough to not accept 38 Special rounds.

7.62 Nato
December 4, 2012, 01:56 PM
Can you post pics of some of the problem rounds? Next to some you loaded without problems might help also. I had some reload 38s once that wouldn't load in my 38 or 357. Turns out they had too much crimp and bulged the case a little. I ran them through a sizing die with the stem removed and they worked fine.

ATLDave
December 4, 2012, 02:31 PM
The dragging part is peculiar. Sounds like the problem isn't getting the round into the chamber, but having one end or the other stick out and interfere with the frame or forcing cone. Have you checked to make sure the primers are seated correctly? Are the bullets literally stick out of the front of the cylinder?

jim8115
December 4, 2012, 06:13 PM
They dont drop all the way into the cylinder, so they drag the frame just enough to hang things up

triggerman770
December 4, 2012, 07:29 PM
have you weighed them? they could be 168's. I have some kieth style 168's that are too long for the special.

Lost Sheep
December 5, 2012, 12:24 AM
This may be a case where the Lee Factory Crimp die might be helpful. The function of the Post6-Sizing ring is to ensure the dimensions of the cartridge meet SAAMI specifications.
If it is a matter of case diameter, that should do the trick.

Of course, there might then be a matter of case mouth tension (the springiness of brass vs lead being substantially different). But that is another matter.

If it is a matter of the shoulder of the bullet, that might be another matter entirely.

Lost Sheep

jim8115
December 6, 2012, 01:26 AM
1) it is not case bulge
2) the are 158 truncated cone from thebulletwoks.net
3) they are 158 grain , .357-358
4) the bullet is .663 long
5 ) where a Missouri bullet 158 SWC has .101 shoulder in front of the crimp groove, these have .140
6) the same problem in 2 different model10's as well as a model 64

I am convinced it is the bullet profile causing the shoulder to hit the throat when seated to the crimp groove.

JIM

06
December 6, 2012, 01:36 AM
Have gotten into the habit of sizing any purchased cast boolits. Often see where they are "squeezed" a bit to proper diameters. Had a "pot" full of 45s that gave me a lot of trouble so just started sizing everything cast.

Jim Watson
December 6, 2012, 01:41 AM
I think you would just make a mess cramming them farther into an already roll crimped case. But what have you got to lose besides a couple of bullets to try it on?

Some old guy name of Keith said to seat his 173 gr SWC to crimp over the leading edge for use in .357 brass in the original .357 Magnum; but that it worked better to just use Special brass. So I think your best out is to just shoot these in Magnum chambers.

JLDickmon
December 6, 2012, 09:01 AM
I think you would just make a mess cramming them farther into an already roll crimped case. But what have you got to lose besides a couple of bullets to try it on?

No. DO NOT do that. You could too easily cause a kaboom that way.

Pull the bullets and start over. You have to treat it as a "NEW" load development.

If the bullet ogive is too long for the throat of the chamber anyway, it's already setting you up for catastrophe..

homatok
December 6, 2012, 02:19 PM
You do not indicate whether your load is at (or near) maximum. If it is, seating the bullet deeper into the case may well cause a rise in pressure that might be catostrophic! Be carefull!!

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