Help a newcomer out


PDA






justinpar
December 3, 2012, 08:09 PM
Looking for advise on my first competition pistol purchase. The local club I'll be joining hold 3gun, idpa, and uspsa. I would like to compete in these matches for fun and to progress my skill level. I'm looking for a little guidance on a pistol that will be a good start for all three of these events. I've narrowed it down to the following.

CZ85- my number one choice at the current moment. High capacity, LH control (lefty shooter), should be a soft shooting 9mm.

Glock 17- I shoot glocks accurate.. Big plus. Even though they are not truly ambi friendly I can manipulate them pretty good. Biggest fear with this platform is when my skills progress I might be limited by the lack of LH controls. I ccw a glock 26 and have always liked glocks.

1911- likely of the sti flavor. Likely would need to add LH controls. Not sure if I should go .45 or 9mm in this platform. I reload so either is not a problem. I've shoot a couple 1911's and love the platform.

Out of all the choices I'm leaning toward the cz since it seems like it is the best of both worlds. Is there something I'm missing or should consider? Never shoot a cz so unsure if this is a really good fit for me.

If you enjoyed reading about "Help a newcomer out" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Sam1911
December 3, 2012, 08:13 PM
Howdy, and welcome!

I'll suggest that more folks go farther in competition shooting with Glocks than do with CZs, but that's not really a damning statement against CZs.

There's very little (if anything) you have to do with a Glock that can't be done just as fast lefty as righty. (Though this might be cool: http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/frame-parts/magazine-release-parts/magazine-releases/ambidextrous-magazine-release-for-glock-reg--prod24007.aspx)

Fred_G
December 3, 2012, 08:19 PM
Not on your list, but the S&W M&P 9 is a nice little gun. Compact makes a good carry gun, and you can use the full sized mags in it with the XGrip. Safety is ambi if you get one with a safety, and the mag release can be changed to LH.

Glock makes a good gun, I just don't like the grip angle. Of course, that is personal preference. I have no experience with the CZ, they are popular. Can't go wrong with a good 1911. :)

Jim Watson
December 3, 2012, 11:59 PM
I know several southpaws shooting Glocks with no apparent inefficiency.
Since you know you can shoot one well, it would be the logical choice.
A CZ would be a pig in a poke.
Nothing wrong with an STI except the price, higher than Glock or CZ.

Since you reload, you could consider a Glock 35 .40 caliber.
Load it light for IDPA SSP and USPSA Production, soup it up for Limited.

justinpar
December 4, 2012, 07:42 PM
I've been looking at the 34 and concluded if I go the glock route then the 34/35 is more logical over the 17. I wanted to avoid .40 since I shoot so much 9mm but if there are more options with the 35 then it would be worth it.

Jim Watson
December 4, 2012, 07:49 PM
It depends on how many punches you want on your USPSA classification card.
A G34 is about ideal for Production where everything is scored as Minor. But it would be handicapped in L10 or Limited where the .40 Majors play. A G35 would be competitive there and could still be loaded down to reduce recoil for Production.

The .40 does not have a natural home in IDPA except when loaded light to shoot alongside the 9mms in Stock Service Pistol.

I don't know the divisions within 3 gun. Sometimes they parallel USPSA, sometimes not.

twofifty
December 5, 2012, 01:25 AM
Justin, the thing about competitions is that there are strict rules about what types of guns get to play in which division of the sport.

Some rules distinguish between gun models, calibers, sights/optics, magazines, min. trigger pull weight, whether and how much extra gunsmithing is allowed, custom work, OEM optional equipment/accessories.

Guns that may be well suited for a particular division in one sport may not be allowed to compete at all in another sport.

Suggest you try and make your way to a few local IDPA, USPSA and 3-gun matches to see what you can learn. Some of these sports also post their rules online.

K1500
December 5, 2012, 01:52 AM
Glock 17 or 34 gets my vote. You shoot them well and you can go to the top with either gun. If you want or need to make major, a Glock 35 would be a good choice, but I would start (and probably never leave) the 9mm. Pick whichever feels best to you. If you plan on carrying it, especially IWB, the 17 gets the nod. I shoot a 17 and used one as my primary carry gun for years.

Another solid choice is the M&P in 9mm. Many feel the ergos are better for them than the Glock. Lots also like the XD, but I have only fired one mag out of one and it wasn't for me.

56hawk
December 5, 2012, 02:36 AM
Like others mentioned it really depends on which sport and what class you want to shoot in. I shoot a 40 caliber STI in USPSA Limited class and it's arguably the best possible choice for that class. 9mm puts you at a disadvantage in a lot of classes because it is scored lower than a 40. 45 is almost always at a disadvantage due to magazine capacity, an exception being the single stack class where you are limited to eight rounds.

glockgod
December 5, 2012, 05:20 AM
If you are a Glock fan you might want to look at the Gen 4 Glocks. They have a nice semi aggressive finish on the grip-a reversible magazine release to help out the lefties-and backstrap additions to help fit the gun to your hand. If you own a Glock you also might want to look into the GSSF competitions at gssfonline.com

daybreak
December 5, 2012, 02:32 PM
Howdy, and welcome!

I'll suggest that more folks go farther in competition shooting with Glocks than do with CZs, but that's not really a damning statement against CZs.


I'll counter with CZ is the winningest pistol in IPSC worldwide. It dominates ipsc.

Shoot both. i have a feeling you'll pick the CZ.

Jim Watson
December 5, 2012, 03:18 PM
USPSA and IDPA don't play by IPSC rules.

IPSC Production has a minimum 5 lb DA trigger pull.
With a CZ only the first shot is DA, the rest are SA as light as you like.
With a Glock, all trigger pulls are the same and must make the minimum 5 lbs.

In the American games, there is no trigger pull limit and 2 lb Glocks are common.
Not that I recommend one for a beginner.

justinpar
December 5, 2012, 07:21 PM
Daybreak.... I would like to hear more about the cz and why it is your pick. I've never shot/held one but the pistol looks top notch to me. From everything I read it is a highly underestimated pistol and does not get the respect it deserves. I like the fact that it is not plastic framed pistol with ability to shoot SA.

daybreak
December 5, 2012, 09:06 PM
I own several CZs now and i've sold almost all my other pistols now with the exception of one 1911, a ruger Sr1911. I've sold my glock 17, my XD9, my rock island 9mm 1911 and replaced them all with CZs. I own 5 now.

I've got both a 75 shadow single action and a 75 shadow (DA/SA). The single action only is my steel matches gun and I bought the other (DA/SA) 75 shadow to shoot production.

For me, it's the most comfortable most ergonomic pistol I've ever held, 1911 included. I've got slim aluminum grips on mine, but even the factory rubber ones are excellent.

My single action has THE NICEST single action trigger in a semi i've ever felt, period. It has zero pre travel, and I mean zero. It breaks like glass, clean and crisp. It's Better than any 1911 trigger I've felt. My DA/SA 75 shadow has an excellent excellent trigger as well. Very light and short reset in single, very smooth double. CZCustom also now offers a short reset trigger job which makes it so the reset point is like the single action only version with virtually no take up. I haven't shot one of those yet but I hear they're amazing. It's production legal too.

They are freaking accurate. 1911 or better accurate. Anyone that tells you out the box a glock is just as accurate has never fired a CZ. I've watched so many people suck at shooting dueling trees until they pick up my CZ and start nailing plate after plate. They all say the same thing: "I'm buying one of those".

CZs in the past have not gotten the recognition they deserved, but that's changing. Try finding one in stock anywhere. In California, they are flying off the shelves. Here in Louisiana where i work, not so much. Most people I talk to at the range have never even heard of CZ.

It is an incredible incredible production gun. If you get the 85 definitely get the combat version without a firing pin block. Check out CZcustom for a race hammer and trigger job, or seek out uspsa grand master Matt Mink who does excellent trigger jobs as well.

daybreak
December 5, 2012, 09:13 PM
Unless you absolutely need a right side slide stop, I would just opt for a CZ Shadow over an 85 combat if you've got the budget for one. The shadow has ambidextrous safeties and you can switch the mag release to the right side.

IdahoSkies
December 6, 2012, 11:47 PM
It really depends on what game you want to shoot. I will bet that a Glock 17 will get you into almost everyone. I shoot IDPA and I generally run a witness in 9mm (CZ clone). I love it. Just be aware that the all steel weight of the 85 may get you in trouble with some division weight capacities.

glockgod
December 7, 2012, 07:38 AM
Glock 17- I shoot glocks accurate.. Big plus. Even though they are not truly ambi friendly I can manipulate them pretty good. Biggest fear with this platform is when my skills progress I might be limited by the lack of LH controls. I ccw a glock 26 and have always liked glocks.

If you are a Glock fan you might want to look at the Gen 4 Glocks. They have a nice semi aggressive finish on the grip-a reversible magazine release to help out the lefties-and backstrap additions to help fit the gun to your hand.

I'd go with a Gen 4 Glock 17.( I did!):)

justinpar
December 9, 2012, 05:07 PM
Well.... Went to a couple of gun stores today and got a hold a cz75sp01 and a glock 34. They are both great feeling guns but I think I'm sold on the cz85combat. Hopefully I can find one! The cz is what I'm truely looking for. That perfect in between of a 1911 with all steel construction but also a high cap 9mm.

Anyone know of a retailer online that might have one? Buds is out of stock.

Fred_G
December 9, 2012, 05:27 PM
http://www.gunsamerica.com/976866634/Guns-For-Sale/Gun-Auctions/Pistols/CZ/CZ_85_Combat_9mm_luger.htm

Google says they have the CZ85 Combat

justinpar
December 9, 2012, 05:42 PM
http://czcustom.com/cz-85-combat-polycoat-9mm.aspx

This site should be good to go? Anyone deal with them?

Hoser
December 9, 2012, 05:51 PM
The CZ Custom shop is good to go.

I am pretty close friends with one of their gunsmiths.

justinpar
December 9, 2012, 05:59 PM
Good to know... I'll likely give them a call as their website indicates they also don't have one in stock.

daybreak
December 9, 2012, 06:35 PM
I've spent a couple grand there. They are the go to site for all competition CZ stuff.

justinpar
December 9, 2012, 09:25 PM
May just have to go through them... All the lgs outlook on getting a 85 seem pretty grim. I might be able to land a 75 sp-01 but from what I have seen it needs work to meet the wait limit for idpa so ill prob avoid that

daybreak
December 9, 2012, 09:42 PM
www.damascusgunshop.com may be able to help you out as well.

daybreak
December 9, 2012, 09:44 PM
USPSA and IDPA don't play by IPSC rules.

IPSC Production has a minimum 5 lb DA trigger pull.
With a CZ only the first shot is DA, the rest are SA as light as you like.
With a Glock, all trigger pulls are the same and must make the minimum 5 lbs.

In the American games, there is no trigger pull limit and 2 lb Glocks are common.
Not that I recommend one for a beginner.

I believe starting in 2013 uspsa production division guns require a minimum 3lb trigger pull for the first pull.

Jon_Snow
December 10, 2012, 01:23 PM
That rule was introduced and then repealed because almost all the production shooters were against it.

Jed Carter
December 10, 2012, 08:34 PM
Sooner you get a pistol the sooner you can start, looks like the CZ may take a few months. I went the G34 route to get started asap, I understand it's available in a Gen 4 now. Really easy to do your own upgrades, trigger work, sights, etc on the Glock. Magazines, you may want 8-10 for a match are relatively cheap and they are tuff enough to drop on gravel and step on. I am a CZ fan, but to get a CZ with all the allowed mods, and magazines you may have enought in it to buy two G34s. The best DA/SA trigger I have ever shot was on a CZ SP01 from Angus' Custom Shop, cost around $1400 I was told. Too rich for my wallet, Competition is hard on pistols things wear out, break. On a Glock or 1911 I can fix most problems, or perform my own upgrades, parts are everywhere, tools are everywhere. I went the quick and easy way and have a Production Division pistol that I shoot as well as any other 9mm pistol I have shot... well almost as well as my STI 9mm 1911.

mgmorden
December 10, 2012, 09:28 PM
That rule was introduced and then repealed because almost all the production shooters were against it.

Yep. It was strange but it seems like when talking to people (both online and in real life), the only people who supported this rule were people who didn't shoot production, and people who did all thought it a bad idea.

daybreak
December 11, 2012, 10:04 AM
Yep. It was strange but it seems like when talking to people (both online and in real life), the only people who supported this rule were people who didn't shoot production, and people who did all thought it a bad idea.

Interesting! I'll bet those Limited guys were tired of seeing production guys finish higher in the overall combined results hahaha.

justinpar
December 11, 2012, 05:40 PM
Well, I just got a cz75 sp-01 with night sights. I know this puts me out of ssp unless I do some weight reduction, but I should be fine for the other competitions the club offers. Pretty pumped and cannot wait to shoot the thing!

Anyone running one of these? What weight reduction have you done?

daybreak
December 11, 2012, 06:30 PM
congrats!

For IDPA I don't know if it's legal do to the full length dust cover. As far as weight reduction goes, I recommend checking out the brianenos forums or czforums.us for help.

twofifty
December 11, 2012, 06:56 PM
Justin, iirc BCrider has put a SP01 on a weight loss program and has run it in SSP for awhile.

justinpar
December 11, 2012, 07:07 PM
Everything I read say for ssp it only needs a diet. ESP has the full lenght dust cover but if I can get it down on weight and run in ssp then it qualifies for ESP based on what I read. This is a small local club so not 100% how closely they follow these rules.

daybreak
December 11, 2012, 07:11 PM
I know rules are rules, but I wouldn't stress about weight on a local level.

justinpar
December 15, 2012, 11:16 AM
Finally put some rounds through the gun last night! It feels great. I brought some handload a and factory rem. umc... Looks like I'll have to do some load developement. The cz would not fully feed my standard load of 4.5 bullseye, 1.145 oal, 115gr Missouri bullet company. Seems like the OAL is to long.

twofifty
December 16, 2012, 03:16 AM
In an SP-01 I load RN plated 125s to 1.130" and they feed very reliably.
They still feed if a bit longer, but at 1.135" I start getting some hickups so I stick with 1.130".

Books says COL for 115s is 1.090", but you could probably go longer.

justinpar
December 16, 2012, 11:30 AM
1.145" was perfect for my SR9. I'll just have to spend some time to find what the sp-01 likes

justinpar
December 27, 2012, 01:03 PM
Did some reading and it is common place to have to seat below 1.1" with cz's and lead bullets. Did the drop test and 1.05" was perfect

otasan56
December 29, 2012, 11:06 AM
I'd go with the G17. The ammo is cheap, and the gun is a primo defensive pistol. If you get some Federal or Winchester 115 gr JHP +p+ ronds for SD, you'd be all set. That is what I use.

justinpar
December 29, 2012, 12:04 PM
Already snatched up a cz... My daily carry is a g26 and I have the extended g19 if needed

If you enjoyed reading about "Help a newcomer out" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!