sportsmans warehouse and colt


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browncoatdawn
December 3, 2012, 09:08 PM
I dont know, but I was just about ready to open my mouth at sportmans.
The gun salesman was telling a couple of new customers that Colt AR 15 rifles are the best of the best and none other come close. He literally told the guys that Bushmaster and DPMS and the other brands offered no military spec rifles, and that all but Colt were made with 100-200 rounds a year as a max.
Now I have a DPMS and before I did any mods, I put 400-500 at a time through mine. All I did was took it apart, cleaned, lubed and double checked that the parts were properly staked before I took it out the first time. I think that might be the major mistake most people make.
Since I have had my rifle, I have upgraded it to an M16 NP3 bolt group and a black ejector spring, and since I am not shooting off the bench I left the stock trigger in it.
I have had no problems, and the original bolt group is in fine shape. I did upgrade to a heavier duty charging handle too now that I think of it.

I know a couple of guardsmen that tell me that they carry Bushmaster rifles when deployed. I imagine the brand doesn't matter so much as long as the thing is true Mil Spec.

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wally
December 3, 2012, 09:26 PM
It ain't "true mil-spec" unless it has the paper trail with inspector's marks and is engraved US Government Property.


Blind obedience to "mil-specs" is why us taxpayers get stuck paying for $400 toilet seats and $600 hammers.

rcmodel
December 3, 2012, 09:29 PM
It ain't "true mil-spec" unless it has a 14.4" barrel and select fire either.

rc

JHansenAK47
December 3, 2012, 10:05 PM
MILSPEC is way over dramatized. A milspec buffer tube for a collapsible stock is thinner than a commercial spec tube. I guess you could argue that the milspec buffer tube can fit both milspec and with a good bit of slop commercial spec stocks. That aside I still don't think the beefier commercial spec buffer tube is inferior to the Milspec version.

browncoatdawn
December 3, 2012, 10:06 PM
well, they did say the only difference was that the civilian model wont rock and roll. For my thinking, my rifle is near mil spec. It has the internal and external measurements mil spec, and now the bolt is also. I really think I like my 20 inch barrel better though lol. The thing that surprises most people are that lots of buffer tubes aren't mil spec. I'm not really sure why that matters to so many people care so much.

helotaxi
December 4, 2012, 09:50 AM
MILSPEC is way over dramatized. A milspec buffer tube for a collapsible stock is thinner than a commercial spec tube. I guess you could argue that the milspec buffer tube can fit both milspec and with a good bit of slop commercial spec stocks. That aside I still don't think the beefier commercial spec buffer tube is inferior to the Milspec version.
Except for the difference in material (mil-spec is 7075-T6 vs 6061-T6) and the inferior method of threading that doesn't leave a full profile thread in the commercial tube. For a range plinker, you're right, there is no difference. For a rifle that is going to get beat on, there's a difference. There are also several stocks that are only available in a mil-spec diameter. I've yet to see a quality stock that was only available in commercial diameter.

357SIG
December 4, 2012, 10:31 AM
Except for the difference in material (mil-spec is 7075-T6 vs 6061-T6) and the inferior method of threading that doesn't leave a full profile thread in the commercial tube. For a range plinker, you're right, there is no difference. For a rifle that is going to get beat on, there's a difference. There are also several stocks that are only available in a mil-spec diameter. I've yet to see a quality stock that was only available in commercial diameter.

Really??? Do you care to back that statement up with facts? I'd like to see the first example in history of a commercial tube being proven as inferior to a milspec one, even considering the type of metal.

A lot of non-spec rifles have been through the wringer, and they seem to do just fine. Lots of them have passed torture tests, which include drop tests and intentional attempts to damage the components. Some agencies have even "frisbee" tested the submitted guns and tossed them against a wall. I have not heard of broken commercial tubes. I have never seen the threads give out either.

Please try to post factual information in your response, not a theoretical superiority, merely due to the specs of the piece being slightly better. If you can reveal an example, please let us know how it was concluded that the specs for the part were to blame, and whether it might be a single freak example, or something widespread.

Think of this: a titanium spoon is no better than a decent stainless one for eating soup, nor will the inferior stainless wear out within a lifetime of use. Only if subjected to extreme force -- that of which no one will ever experience when using it for its intended purpose -- will it show it's inferiority. It's all about the application. I can't think of one single example of when a buffer tube will benefit from being milspec. Same goes for 4140 vs. 4150 or CMV barrel steel in an AR15. Furthermore, when these questions are debated on dedicated AR15 forums, the consensus is the same; no differences in the field for the given application.

henschman
December 4, 2012, 10:50 AM
Your DPMS doesn't have a chrome lined barrel and it is 1/9 twist instead of 1/7. Also the barrel is not high pressure tested and magnetic particle inspected. All these things are required on military rifles, and Colts have all of those features. Bushmasters have chrome lined barrels, but they only offer 1/9 and don't HPT or MPI.

The guy at the store was exaggerating, but it is true that Bushmaster and DPMS don't make any mil spec rifles. However, I would definitely dispute the claim that "no others come close" to Colt. Maybe that is true of the models that Sportsman's Warehouse carries, but there are mfgs like BCM, DD, Noveske, and PSA that make all mil spec rifles, and offer them in more configurations and with different options than Colt. BCM and PSA beat their prices, too.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
December 4, 2012, 11:50 AM
Wally and RC are absolutly right.... Some parts in an AR are mil-spec from certain manufactures. But like they said, it isn't really a mil-spec rifle. The FCG is different, the lower receiver has been milled more to accept the afore mentioned FCG. Trust me the $400 toilet seats and the $30 rolls of John Wayne toilet paper suck... LOL

Carne Frio
December 4, 2012, 12:03 PM
The Sportsman's Warehouse sales people are not experts.
I own Bushmasters and Colts. Both work fine. I prefer the
Colts.

Gtscotty
December 4, 2012, 12:40 PM
Blind obedience to "mil-specs" is why us taxpayers get stuck paying for $400 toilet seats and $600 hammers.

False, the DOD has been trending heavily towards COTS procurement (for better or worse) for years, we're only supposed to use Military specific peformance specs for items where the warfighters really do have a set of requirements that differ from what is being offered commercially. A lot of the procurement waste casually attributed to DOD procurement is in reality caused by a small subset of contractors determined to squeeze every percieved hint of vagueness in a contract for all the cash they possibly can. Most contractors are more upstanding than this, plenty are not.

If you want other factors to blame for DOD waste, take a look at the overly cumbersome congressional monetary control system and a contract protest system set up to put the government at a serious disadvantage.

*End Rant*

As for the OP, it sounds like you ran into the classic gunstore blowhard... I usually try to ignore these types, the more you try to logically explain the faults in their argument, the louder they argue...

browncoatdawn
December 4, 2012, 03:12 PM
my barrel and chamber are chrome lines actually, but the twist is 1/9. I have fired both and tend to like the 1/9 barrel better anyway. I have a lot of 62-69 grain ammo and it performs better out of my barrel.
I would have to wonder who colt contracts out to when they cant keep up with demand.

Fishbed77
December 4, 2012, 04:40 PM
I know a couple of guardsmen that tell me that they carry Bushmaster rifles when deployed.

I'd be curious to hear a little more backup on this. AFAIK, all M4/M4A1s in the current inventory are Colts, and all M16A2/M16A4s are either Colt or FN.

I've been wrong before, though. Obviously, there are some more esoteric examples out there (H&K M416, etc.) but I wouldn't expect many of these in National Guard hands.

helotaxi
December 4, 2012, 05:48 PM
Really??? Do you care to back that statement up with facts? I'd like to see the first example in history of a commercial tube being proven as inferior to a milspec one, even considering the type of metal.I've seen several commercial tubes that have collapsed under lateral stress. I've seen pictures of several that have had the threads strip when the castle nut was tightened because the threads were not full profile. Like I said, the casual user will never notice a difference, but if there were truly no difference, then everyone would have gone to the commercial tube long aago since it is cheaper to produce from a material and machining standpoint.

Furthermore, when these questions are debated on dedicated AR15 forums, the consensus is the same; no differences in the field for the given application.You must frequent very different AR forums than I do, since I'm usually the only one holding the position that the "chart" and mil-spec on the whole mean squat for a normal shooter. Certain items will not mean anything outside military use (particularly full auto fire), but for other things there is a difference that will be appreciable.

henschman
December 4, 2012, 06:30 PM
What DPMS do you have that is chrome lined? The only CL barrels they sell are on their NFA 14.5" uppers, which they don't make very many of at all.

Personally I like the 1/7 because while it shoots the 55 and 62 grain surplus just fine, it also lets me use heavier rounds for long range, like the 75 and 77 grain stuff. Also it handles the heavy Hornady TAP HD ammo well. There just isn't a downside to it, as far as I can see. I shoot mostly surplus too, but I got the 1/7 because I want the option. I figure when I get into handloading for this caliber, I will use a lot more of the heavy stuff.

k_dawg
December 4, 2012, 08:33 PM
"Mil Spec" does not inherently means superior. Heck, the mere existance of the "Manual Bolt Closure Device" proves this. It means that it is built and documented as being built to the specification. It does not mean the specification is better.

Aside for the 'fun switch', the original "Mil Spec" M16 is inferior in almost every way. And let's not even talk about 'Mil Spec' ammunition.

browncoatdawn
December 4, 2012, 08:40 PM
from what ive been told, in 2009 DPMS began chrome lining most of their barrels. thats according the their rep on the phone. the chambers have always been chrome lined afaik. the longer, predador barrels are not chrome lined, as this typically effects accuracy, as ive read in many sources. so i know that barrel of mine is not chromed.
i am looking for a 300 blackout barrel for my uppers that i would be happy with. iowa is not an nfa state and i dont think there is much any way around it.

Quentin
December 5, 2012, 02:18 AM
In general he was truthful. Though as henschman said he was exaggerating, Colt is about as good as it gets if you want an AR that can take hard use. BCM and a few others equal Colt in this area but you may not need that type of AR yourself.

henschman
December 5, 2012, 02:44 AM
"Mil Spec" does not inherently means superior. Heck, the mere existance of the "Manual Bolt Closure Device" proves this. It means that it is built and documented as being built to the specification. It does not mean the specification is better.

Aside for the 'fun switch', the original "Mil Spec" M16 is inferior in almost every way. And let's not even talk about 'Mil Spec' ammunition.

You seem to be implying that mil spec is meaningless. This is not true. It is a minimum set of quality assurance. Certainly it is possible to improve on the mil specs, but unfortunately most non mil spec manufacturers make inferior, rather than superior products. The ones who make superior products are well known for it and their price tags reflect it.

351 WINCHESTER
December 5, 2012, 01:04 PM
DPMS chambers have not always been chrome lined. Some are and some aren't.

husker
December 5, 2012, 06:49 PM
I have a Colt. it goes bang every time
My buddy has a Bushmaster. it to goes bang every time
His buddy has a DPMS It goes bang every time.
My buddies buddies buddies wife has a Rock River. Guess what it does?

Quentin
December 5, 2012, 07:02 PM
I have a Colt. it goes bang every time
My buddy has a Bushmaster. it to goes bang every time
His buddy has a DPMS It goes bang every time.
My buddies buddies buddies wife has a Rock River. Guess what it does?

But bang 'em up real bad and see which one still goes bang! That's likely what the Sportsmans Warehouse gun salesman implied.

k_dawg
December 5, 2012, 08:40 PM
You seem to be implying that mil spec is meaningless. This is not true. It is a minimum set of quality assurance. Certainly it is possible to improve on the mil specs, but unfortunately most non mil spec manufacturers make inferior, rather than superior products. The ones who make superior products are well known for it and their price tags reflect it.

I have not implied it in any way shape or form.

But thanks for ignoring what I actually posted. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_A4hxZHkvcQI/TOlqlJwvZ3I/AAAAAAAAASg/-QV4KFDvvu4/s1600/37+two+thumbs+up.gif

browncoatdawn
December 6, 2012, 10:09 AM
In all actuality, the salesman said simply that all other brands were only good for 100 to 200 rounds in a years time. that wasn't thousand rounds. and there was no mention of abuse of said weapon. besides, if I were to buy a weapon that saw lots of abuse, I believe I would go for H&K or FN.

SlamFire1
December 6, 2012, 10:30 AM
Sounds like another "Colt Fan Boys versus the World" thread.

I have Armalite AR15's, Rock River, Bushmaster. They all go bang ,shoot exceptionally well and I am happy with them.

Colt did not make a stock box NM AR15. When I talked to a Colt Executive behind a Colt table of rifles they had on Commercial Row I found him to be an exceptionally arrogant person. I asked why Colt did not put a 1:8 twist barrel on their rifles, because a 1:9 is not competitive at 600 yards, and I got a lecture about how Colt was selling a quarter million AR’s per year, Colt knew what they were doing and I, obviously, was a total idiot.

I have always wondered who was the bigger idiot, me looking for a rifle to shoot across the course, or a Company who wags products to a competitive event that no one could possibly win with.

The reason I am not buying Colt is because they produce an expensive product that does not meet my needs.

I have shot with gentleman who have used their Rock Rivers, Bushmasters, and Armalites enough to go through several barrels. If these brands were horrible I would have heard complaints.

If people want to pay extra for the Pony they are fine to do so. With only 160 employees at Colt, most of their stuff is sub contracted out anyway, from the same subcontractors who sell the same parts to all the other AR vendors.

MachIVshooter
December 6, 2012, 11:52 AM
That counter monkey was an idiot. Colt makes good rifles, but so do a lot of other manufacturers. So long as you avoid Hesse, Blackthone, Vulcan, Olympic, you should be fine.


Except for the difference in material (mil-spec is 7075-T6 vs 6061-T6) and the inferior method of threading that doesn't leave a full profile thread in the commercial tube. For a range plinker, you're right, there is no difference. For a rifle that is going to get beat on, there's a difference. There are also several stocks that are only available in a mil-spec diameter. I've yet to see a quality stock that was only available in commercial diameter.

Really??? Do you care to back that statement up with facts? I'd like to see the first example in history of a commercial tube being proven as inferior to a milspec one, even considering the type of metal.

Commercial tubes were made thicker because the 6061 is softer. The reality is anything that will damage a 1.17" 6061 tube will most likely also damage a 1.15" 7075 tube.

The thing you have to watch for when buying is to make sure that the mil spec diameter tube you get is 7075 and not 6061; There are several manufacturers that make 6061 mil spec diameter tubes, which are weaker than a commercial tube. Would probably be fine for 99% of use, but why buy the tube made of weaker and thinnner metal?

I run commercial tubes on all of my ARs because both of my earlier production Armalite rifles had them, and it was more economical to stick with commercial pattern for stock interchangeability between rifles. I'm pretty rough with them, never had a problem.

SSN Vet
December 6, 2012, 12:33 PM
That's just Shocking!

Do you actually mean to tell us that a sales guy, with Colt on the shelf, is talking up Colt and talking down the competition.... :cuss:

and you didn't intervene? :neener:

Like the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause.... :eek:

One of life's shocking moments is when you discover that sales people are not the worlds leading authority on anything... and they often misrepresent the little bit of factual information they do know, in order to make a sale.

Oh the inhumanity :rolleyes:

aka108
December 6, 2012, 01:33 PM
Not AR related but if you have a Sportsman's Warehouse you must be in the Norhwest. We had one store in Tallahassee that opened with a bang but the merchandise sold was never restocked. Sadly the store closed and the company went under. Beautiful building. The building has now been taken over and is being expanded into a Bass Pro Shop Outpost. Used to do quite a buit of buying from the Sportsman's Warehouse in Twin Falls, Idaho and was always impressed with the store. Interesting to see the ebb and flow of these businesses. Now you guys can get back to your AR debates. For black guns I have the Arsenal AK's, that's it.

Fishbed77
December 6, 2012, 02:00 PM
Not AR related but if you have a Sportsman's Warehouse you must be in the Norhwest.

We have a Sportsman's Warehouse here in Columbia, SC. Very busy place.

Dr. Sandman
December 6, 2012, 02:13 PM
I am not only shocked, but also dismayed that a gun store employee disguised his (or her) opinion as fact!

Do your own research, friends. You are on one of the many good websites.

I have a DPMS AR-15 that I love and have never had any problems with.

nwilliams
December 6, 2012, 04:37 PM
A lot of it depends on which model AR but in general I think Colt does makes a higher end AR-15 than many other AR manufacturers including Bushmaster and DPMS.

It's not that Bushmaster, Armalite, RRA and DPMS make bad AR's I just don't think they make top quality AR's. I would still say that S&W, PSA, Stag and now Windham Weaponry are higher up on the latter in terms of quality. Higher still would be Sig, Colt, Daniel Defense, BCM, LMT and Noveske.

If I were going to take a intense carbine course I wouldn't bring a DPMS or Bushmaster but I would feel perfectly comfortable with a Colt, LMT, Noveske, Daniel Defense or BCM.

So IMO the sale clerk wasn't being dishonest, he may have been acting a little like an AR snob but then again I can be that way as well and so I can't really fault him for speaking his mind.

MachIVshooter
December 6, 2012, 08:47 PM
It's not that Bushmaster, Armalite, RRA and DPMS make bad AR's I just don't think they make top quality AR's. I would still say that S&W, PSA, Stag and now Windham Weaponry are higher up on the latter in terms of quality.

Where do you get the idea that Stag and Windham (Bushmaster defectors) are better than Armalite and RRA? As for PSA, it depends on the particular model.

How many of these have you actually played with? I've had trigger time on just about every brand, save Barret, Noveske and Larue. I'll tell you right now that there was nothing about the Colts that put them above Armalite, RRA, S&W and several others as far as I could tell.

What exactly do you think makes the Colt better? Why do you feel that Stag and Windham (generally considered mid tier) are now better?

SilentScream
December 6, 2012, 09:23 PM
Just remember guys the whole "Mil-Spec." thing is not all about the durability of said product. It is mostly set up for commonality of parts, I.E. lets make sure all the manufacturers of weapons, mags, etc. all make the same product to the same dimensions, so that all of the parts fit in all the different weapons they are meant to fit into. (Dated example:An Inland M1 carbine with a Winchester bolt, underwood trigger assy. National postal meter charging handle, and sights from Rock-Ola. All these manufacturers make these parts to the same "Spec.")That is about 90% of the reason behind "mil-spec." It is my belief that the term "mil-spec." was highjacked in the early days of the AR-15 building craze in the early 2000's due to the uncertainty of fit between available commercial parts. That has since changed in a big way and now I see "mil-spec." as basically a sales pitch.

dvdcrr
December 6, 2012, 11:39 PM
When I was a young man in forest service training the only chainsaws they told us were good enough for a true professional were stihls. But before I told my father this I couldn't help but remember all those years he kept us warm all winter long with a lowly old "inferior" McCulloch.

Warp
December 7, 2012, 12:47 AM
The employee was going in the right direction, but went overboard.

There are other makers at least as good as Colt. Not DPMS or Bushmaster, but quite a few others.

MachIVshooter
December 7, 2012, 05:06 AM
When I was a young man in forest service training the only chainsaws they told us were good enough for a true professional were stihls. But before I told my father this I couldn't help but remember all those years he kept us warm all winter long with a lowly old "inferior" McCulloch.

I can vouch for the long term durability and serviceability of the Stihl vs. McCullough/Poulan/Homelite and all the other homeowner grade or "light professional" stuff.

I turn wrenches for a living. The Harbor Freight or Craftsman or Husky tools that work well enough for the weekend tinkerer won't cut it for me, so I buy Mac, Matco, Snap-On, and then some specialty Lisle and OTC stuff for the most part.

However.........The spread of AR quality-even from bottom to top-isn't near as much as it often is with tools. I have never run across a cheap, cast aluminum chinese AR sporting an extruded round stock barrel and zamak BCG.

NWcityguy2
December 7, 2012, 01:24 PM
After two deployments with the Army I never understood the "at least as good as Colt" mentality. I think the US Military is under no illusion that Colt is the best thing out there. When I read about the 2007 dust test where the M4 jammed once every 2-3 magazines I thought that assessment was spot on with what I saw in Iraq. I've never seen such a variety of jams or so many bent rounds of ammunition than working with Colt products both here in the states and overseas. My co-worker who was drafted into Vietnam describes his M16A1 as "a piece of crap".

The other thing I've never seen is a large amount of worn out AR15s, shot to death by their owners, suffering from small parts failure, etc. I've seen many people warn against it, but I haven't seen it with my own eyes.

I think the most honest thing to say is that there are rifles out there that are significantly better than Colt, and when it comes to rifles that are built on the original AR15 concept, they are more alike than they are different.

Warp
December 7, 2012, 01:46 PM
Things have changed since Vietnam, you know.

The dust test you speak of (which is a topic itself) is about the platform, not the manufacturer

PS: Use more lube. ;-)

rodinal220
December 7, 2012, 02:12 PM
Also Colt uses 4150 CMV MIL-B-11595E in the barrels.You can argue the Mil-spec thing all day but not all AR15s are the same,they may look the same,but many ways to cut corners.

Yeah,the Civi variants do not have select fire and maybe didn't get the once over by a bureaucrat inspector with his/her moosh gig.Other than that the Colt is the one all others are judged by.A few other companies like BCM and DD put out really good products too,but the pony holds its value better.

Guns like Crapmasters and DPMS are range queen hobby grade guns,I know plenty of PDs that use them,doesn't mean anything,but they also have "more" problems with those, than those who run Colt 6920s and 6933s.

Depends on what you want to do.

The AR15 industry is an incestuous one.;)

1 old 0311-1
December 7, 2012, 02:14 PM
Gee Sportsmans Warehouse lied? Now what are the odds of that.:evil::evil:

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