2100 lbs Safe safe on my floor?


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grmnrkt
December 4, 2012, 02:46 PM
I'm hoping that CB900F will chime in here since he's a Graffunder dealer.

I just bought a B7240 from Graffunder direct, there are no dealers in my area. I'm going to have it shipped to a local safe dealer who will move it for me. My question is this, will the 2100 lbs weight be supported by my floor? I'm sure you have other customers w/ this safe with similar floor constructions. What was their solution to the weight problem posed by these safes? How the heck to people handle heavier safes in their homes? I don't have room on my garage (otherwise I would have sprung for the C rate).

I will locate it over (3) 2x10 joists 16" on center, the home was built in 1952 and the subfloor is 45 laid 1x4 vs. plywood. I will be locating this safe in a corner of a room which is adjacent to the main steel I-beam and the other wall is an exterior wall. I was having trouble deciding between the C7240 and the B7240 but went w/ the B rate b/c I was concerned about weight and I can't get the safe into the basement so the main floor is the only option. Talked to my architect who said to put a beam under the floor to shorten the span but this will look funny in the end of my finished basement, but if it is needed I will do it.

I appreciate input from any of the security experts on this forum.

Regards,

Brian

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Ironclad
December 4, 2012, 03:17 PM
I would probably listen to your architect over people on an online gun forum. He went to school for a long time to be able to make decisions like this.

beatledog7
December 4, 2012, 03:18 PM
^^ You bought a 2100-lb safe, then asked this question?

AABEN
December 4, 2012, 03:26 PM
That is empty weight! What will it weight after it is full? YES support your floor!!

Certaindeaf
December 4, 2012, 03:33 PM
A hole in your floor will look funnier than a post. probably

Jim Watson
December 4, 2012, 03:43 PM
Agree with architect. Beef it up.
When I was planning for my new house, I was leaning towards a crawl space and reinforced floor under the safe. But I ended up on a slab so it became moot.

grmnrkt
December 4, 2012, 03:48 PM
I'm an engineer and ran calculations. I think it will work w/o the beam. The architect just plugs numbers into a program which spits out results. He told me he didn't know the safety factors involved. When he told me his numbers, vs. what I calculated I figure about a 4x safety factor. Depending on the wood, Each of those beams should hold ~1200lbs. Thats' beam load in middle, not shear of the beam itself. Location has a lot to do with how the forces are exerted. That said, I trust the guy, I just want an opinion from somebody who sells/install them if they've ever encountered problems from customers years down the road. This is one of their "lighter" rated safes. It's just big. My dad has a FT. Knox same size and said his floor is starting to sag, but I don't like where he located it in the room and that has a lot to do with it. Still, my safe is 700# more than his weighs.

I've done a lot of research before making this decision, the hardest part about this decision is the limited info on supporting gun safes vs. what floors are designed to handle. Most people are worried about 6-700lbs safes. This is three times that weight. I'm not the only person with one of these and I would like to know if everybody shortens their joist span or not?

Teachu2
December 4, 2012, 04:15 PM
I'd put a steel post (or 4) in the basement and frame a closet with it (them). That would give me peace of mind. That's a lot of weight, and it will be there a long time (hopefully!). If it damages the house.....

Kingcreek
December 4, 2012, 04:25 PM
Is it possible to add joists ie double them up under the safe?
I put a steel cross beam and support posts under my safe because of an incident near here where a gentleman had a fire and his safe went through the floor and laid in a flooded basement for 3 days. The fireproof safe protected his nice collection but the water and sub freezing temps ruined them.

leadcounsel
December 4, 2012, 05:41 PM
I've had at least that much weight and more on various common 1st and 2nd floor home floors with no issues. We're talking for 2 years in each of two homes.

But I put it in the corner of an outside load bearing wall.

ApacheCoTodd
December 4, 2012, 07:20 PM
I would without question (based upon your description) add support but also be very mindful of the travel from delivery vehicle to the final site. You're going to no doubt be adding significant weight after the first ton and in a relatively small area to boot.
A monster like this - I'd be certain to view the movers bond and insurance beforehand.

Averageman
December 4, 2012, 07:39 PM
Outside load bearing wall and four sissor jacks under it on the first floor, if you do not have a concrete foundation.
I wouldnt consider it on a second floor.
Just my non engineering opinion based on lifes experiances.

coolluke01
December 4, 2012, 07:41 PM
Spreading the weight across more joists would help if you feel you are close to the limit.

Most formulas will not be for point loading but for deflection of 1/4" in the middle of the span. You don't want a floor to bounce when you walk on it or deflect when you load it. It takes a great deal more wood to resist deflection in the middle of a span than a point load near the I beam. You are really only talking about shear strength of the 2x10's for the most part if it's that close to the beam. Being close to the outside wall makes no differences as the 2x10's are running parallel with the basement wall, unless one of them is sitting on the top of the wall. But that's not likely. Being close to the outside wall will take the strength of the steel beam out of the equation though.

If you feel you would like more shear strength, then add 2x10's on top of the steel beam. They don't have to be very long, no need to even stick out past the edge of the safe. Just scab them along side the other joists by glueing and screwing and have them hang evenly over the steel beam on each side. This will reinforce the point load where you need it by increasing the shear strength of the 2x10's.

Talked to my architect who said to put a beam under the floor to shorten the span but this will look funny in the end of my finished basement, but if it is needed I will do it.
You could always head off the 3 joists and set the end of the header on the outside wall, then hang the other end on a doubled or tripled up full length joist. This would keep you from having beams exposed below the ceiling.

Please post pictures if it falls though. ;) lol

idoono
December 4, 2012, 09:10 PM
You could sister additional joist with the three under the safe. Glue and screw them together, reinforce your "X" braces between the joists and you should be good. However like others have said I would run this by a structural engineer (not an architect), and have him run the numbers.

Idoono

Arp32
December 4, 2012, 09:35 PM
What kind of span are you talking about?

a1abdj
December 4, 2012, 11:56 PM
I wouldn't do it without reinforcement.

We max our residential structures at 1,500 pounds, and you ought to see some of the floors move under that weight. Not only will you want to reinforce the area that the safe will sit, but you'll also want to reinforce the floor along the entire route the safe will travel.

grmnrkt
December 5, 2012, 08:36 AM
a1bdj, I was hoping to hear from you too. By reinforcement of the route I assume you mean laying down plates on the floor to dissipate the load along the route? I'm using Cleveland Safe to move the safe, they've been at it a while so I hope they know what they are doing. I'm surprised this isn't asked more often when people are looking at larger safes. There isn't a lot of info I could find on this pertaining to safes. Aquariums and water beds yes, but they are spread over a much larger area. I wanted to get the most security I could afford w/o destroying the house but I think this safe was the best I could do in the size I wanted w/o risking the structural integrity of my home. Based on your your recomendatiuons, an Amsec BF7240 is all you would recommend to a residential client as far as size goes? I even considered a smaller C rate but the weight was still above the one I'm getting. Am I buying too much safe? (little late now).... What do you tell a guy who want a TL30 in their bedroom? Do all customers put them in their garages?

I used the following equation in my calculations for any structural engineers/architects can tell me if this is how they would do it.
http://www.ehow.com/how_7485788_calculate-floor-load-capacity.html
This should be max load w/o a safety factor. My calculations give me max load for the floor area in that room of 8939lbs with each beam carrying a max load of 1240lbs (in the middle). If I pick up three joists that should support the safe no problem especially since the force is more shear related than beam load deflection. Still, I don't know all the ins and outs of structural design, just the basics. Enough to get me into trouble. :banghead:

The span, which I left out ( and is the most important factor) but somebody asked is 11'- 6" the room is 9'-6" wide. But the load will be placed right on the main beam wall. I was originally asking the architect about a C rate and was also considering the Amsec RF6528, both weighing in over 3k lbs. He said that was way over the floor limits and would worry about moving it into the house. That left me with the B rate which he told me was over his calculations but said he wouldn't tell me "it was going to fall through the floor". They software is looking for a max residential dead floor load of 40psf. This safe comes in at 275psf. The C rate was 380psf. TL30 amsec was even higher! He did say however to just shorten the span by putting a wall beneath the safe. Just try to grab one more joist with the wall than what the safe was going to be setting on to shorten the span. I'm going to put in a closet there or move the door to my workshop out and over a few feet. I'm going to get into it this weekend.

coolluke01
December 5, 2012, 11:20 AM
Since you will be setting the safe 2" away from the support beam I would say that would no longer be just a shear strength issue. Building your wall underneath sounds like a good idea. It wouldn't hurt to double up the 2x10's with 4' or 5' 2x10's. Run them over the steel beam and then over your new wall.
I would build your wall with 2x6's if I were you.

grmnrkt
December 5, 2012, 11:41 AM
Even a wall out of just 2x4 12" beyond where the door of the safe will sit would stiffen the floor considerably. It would hold a TL30 no problem at that point. I'm just not going to add a wall the entire length of my basement to get the damn thing through the house and into the office room. LOL. Again its span and deflection of the beam, not Ultimate tensile strength (UTS)we are talking here.

There are a bunch of ways to reinforce the floor, but since I have a ceiling in the basement I didn't want to rip it up if I didn't have to. I also looked at doubling up the joists as suggested, but I have some conduit and the HVAC ducts running between all the joists in question, so it kinda ties my hands as far as the method of reinforcement I can use. Throwing a couple of short 2x10s in place and not spanning the span doesn't really go far to reinforce the floor, in fact I think it would just move the point load of defection further form the wall. Im just going to drop a couple of studs to the basement floor and that will do the trick, frame it out and make a bookshelf or closet or something. Plus this is old wood and probably old growth and stronger than the 4S lumbar of today. This whole thing started with the thought of keeping the riff raff out of my stuff. Since I had nothing beforehand, I think the B rate puts me in a better situation. Besides, if the safe falls through the floor so be it. I really wanted it in the basement anyway but I'm a block short of a full height basement and it wont' fit down the stairs on the safe dolly. It would just be hard to match the 50 year old flooring when covering up the hole. ha ha.

Arp32
December 5, 2012, 11:43 AM
Grmnrkt, I was a poor structures student in architecture school and haven't done the math since, but I see a couple of things:

Span is still (probably) the missing variable. I may have misunderstood, but it seems like you have given the room dimensions which are above the floor joists, which may or may not be the span of the 2x10s below. Unless there is a room below this room on the first floor of exactly the same size, we don't have the right number to plug in.

In any case, basically you've got live load (moving things like humans - probably a number like 30 PSF) and dead load (bookshelves, furniture and safes - in residential a number like 10 or 20 PSF). Figure out the tributary for the two or three floor joists under your safe and see if you've got enough dead load capacity for the safe and whatever else is on those joists. Remember to figure out the span below that floor, because those joists may or may not also be carrying the walls of that room, in which case you've got a lot more math.

Don't trust me though, I'm not licensed and I've never even been to your house to see what else is going on. But looking at it from here, you're adding at least a 40-50PSF dead load to a second floor wood framed residence. Home builders are stingy. I doubt most 2nd floor bedrooms in your subdivision are structured for the equivalent weight of two full sized American sedans.

Full disclosure: I consulted with a structural engineer for my own safe design. It's not what I don't know that I'm worried about, it's what I don't know I don't know about.

coolluke01
December 5, 2012, 03:10 PM
All that stuff in the joist space makes things difficult.

If you will be using 2x4's I would recommend blocking between the studs. A 2x4 will bend easily and will loose all load bearing potential. Double studs on the ends with blocking all the way across will give you all the strength you need.

3/4" plywood on the floors when moving the safe would help spread the weight out. Depending on the dolly being used, you could have all that weight on about 4 sq .This would be around 525 PSI! That's a lot of weight for a floor board spanning 14.5". Well actually since the floor boards are run at a diagonal the span is 20.5" 14.5 squared X 2 = 420.5 square root of 420.5 is 20.50. But I would think professional safe movers would take this into consideration.

This is a very interesting problem, one I have never really thought about much before. I would be interested to hear if the movers had any interesting tricks.

Teachu2
December 7, 2012, 07:07 PM
In the grand scheme of things, it would cost very little more to use 3 1/2" square .120 wall steel tubing for the corner posts of the closet - and have a much stronger support.

coolluke01
December 7, 2012, 07:11 PM
^^^ you would have to use a 2x8 or 2x10? header between the posts. A properly braced 2x4 wall will hold up many tons.

anothernewb
December 7, 2012, 07:27 PM
As with what others have said, if you can swing it, make a closet or something under the safe location to share the load and buttress the floor.

However - if keeping the finished space below is a necessity, then barring electrical or plumbing running underneath; if it were me doing it and needing the space in my house - I would take out the ceiling in that part of the basement and double up the joists with more 2x10's or laminates to share the load, and refinish the ceiling. drywall is cheap, and you'll retain your space. Of course - that is assuming the steel beam that you will be transferring the load to is near a support, and not in the middle of it's span. If the beam is in the middle of it's span - and again clear space is your need, I would consider reinforcing that beam as well.

Trueno
December 7, 2012, 10:03 PM
^^ You bought a 2100-lb safe, then asked this question?

LOL!

Hmm, wonder if the safe will make it to its final resting place against the wall or will it fall through the floor on its way there?

instant "sunken den" :neener:

a1abdj
December 8, 2012, 12:39 AM
If I was moving that safe through a house, I'd lay plywood under aluminum the entire route. If I was traveling along a steel beam, I wouldn't worry much beyond that, but if I had to go across an open span, I'd put in some temporary support in the basement beneath it.

Regardless of what type of equipment is used to move the safe, the rollers will be small and hard. The vibration of that kind of weight will shake your house. Anything you can do to stiffen that ride will prevent your floor from looking like a trampoline and shaking all of your photos off the walls =).

opsman
December 8, 2012, 05:41 AM
I look at it like this, spend a little extra now, or risk some serious damage to your house which will without a doubt cost significantly more than putting in extra supports now. I recently put a safe in my house, before I purchased it, I asked a trusted contractor friend of mine, he recommended that I beef up the floor where the safe will sit. My safe does not weigh anything near what yours does, but at 1200 pounds empty, that amount of weight sitting in one spot for the rest of my life will certainly cause some type of sagging or damage. I put in the extra supports and do not regret it.

grmnrkt
December 9, 2012, 09:24 PM
If I was moving that safe through a house, I'd lay plywood under aluminum the entire route. If I was traveling along a steel beam, I wouldn't worry much beyond that, but if I had to go across an open span, I'd put in some temporary support in the basement beneath it.

Regardless of what type of equipment is used to move the safe, the rollers will be small and hard. The vibration of that kind of weight will shake your house. Anything you can do to stiffen that ride will prevent your floor from looking like a trampoline and shaking all of your photos off the walls =).
There are a couple of routes into my house, I videoed the shortest most direct route to the final resting place and mailed it to the safe mover. He was concerned about some tile and the two steps he had to come up to get it in that way, and then asked for the dimensions of the safe including the dial and handle since he's not a Graffunder dealer. He said he was going to ramp it over the steps w/ the tile. There is another way that may be more suitable to him. I'm trying to have the guy come out and look at the route so he can plan his attack. I saw his safe dolly when I was shopping at his store. It was aluminum with a ball screw for height adjustment for going up stairs. It was pretty slick. They advertise their guys are pros and will treat your house like its their own. I trust that or they wouldn't have been in business for so many years.
If I don't see them rolling out some plywood and aluminum I'll make sure to remind them of the weight.

I appreciate your input. I have probably read about every post on the internet concerning safes during my research on safes and your posts along with a few others industry guys have been very informative. Thank you.

How often to you get people buying safes you can't move into their houses? you mentioned 1500lbs was your residential limit? Most house constructions are pretty similar compared by era. Is this industry standard or just your company policy?

grmnrkt
December 9, 2012, 09:49 PM
^^^ you would have to use a 2x8 or 2x10? header between the posts. A properly braced 2x4 wall will hold up many tons.
Judging by your responses you sound like your in construction. I thought about a couple of your suggestions a little further and I looked at the space again and here's what i figured would be a workable solution.

I'm going to take a couple 2x4 or 2x6s and screw them together on edge and place a jacking post in the middle of that beam. I can fit additional 2x10s in 2 of 3 spans so I'm going to double up those joists over my post and beam wall and frame the rest out with 2x4s and make a closet. Not what I wanted to do, but I know it will hold the load up w/o any issues. I'm not even going to remove the ceiling, I'm just going to score the plaster around the closet so if the floor does shift, it won't crack the ceiling in the basement.

coolluke01
December 9, 2012, 10:28 PM
I am a Master Plumber and have been working in construction all my life. It's been nice to see how others do things and learn from them. I have remodeled three houses and 3 apartments, so I have a good deal of practical experience in this area.

Not being able to see the place does make it hard. I was wondering how you could get the 2x10's in the ceiling without removing the sheetrock? It is necessary to to remove the sheetrock above the new beam. It will just crush the sheetrock and give you a 1/2" for the joists above to sag. This only needs to be done where the beam contacts the joists, not the side walls of the closet.

2x6's are too small to support the joists and span a 5' closet door. Unless you are just having a 32" door. I know ceiling hight is an issue so this could be an issue and a reason why 2x8's or 2x10's won't work. This is assuming you will have the door running perpendicular with the joists. If your door can be on the wall that is parallel with the joists you won't have to worry about a beam under the joists and the 2x4 wall that is properly braced will support all your weight.

Arp32
December 9, 2012, 10:41 PM
Closet under the safe sounds like a good solution. I know it's more work to cut out the drywall over the closet, but I would put some 2x10 bridging between the joists to keep them from racking.

AABEN
December 11, 2012, 11:53 AM
I added a room on my garage for a gun room to put my safe and reloading supply. That is my hideaway look the door turn on country music and turn off the phone!!!

45crittergitter
December 19, 2012, 07:00 PM
You didn't say how long the 10" joists are, but I think they will hold it. That being said, I won't recommend it, and would not under any circumstance place it over an occupied area without additional support.

idoono
December 19, 2012, 11:31 PM
Please let us know how this turns out. Inquiring minds want to know. Best of luckto ya!

Idoono

grmnrkt
December 27, 2012, 12:16 AM
It ships on Friday! Is it wrong to be excited for a heavy steel box?

Trueno
December 27, 2012, 10:01 AM
It ships on Friday! Is it wrong to be excited for a heavy steal box?

hmm, a steal box, hopefully nobody will steel it.

opsman
December 27, 2012, 04:17 PM
It ships on Friday! Is it wrong to be excited for a heavy steal box?
No it is not wrong to be excited about a heavy steel box. I remember when mine arrived, I was like a kid at Christmas, finally all my research was over and the real deal was being installed.

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