[davek]

I'm having a "discussion" on another board and somebody brought up the "fact" that a semi-auto, say an AK-47 clone for example, can easily be converted to full auto. I can't answer that because I don't really know for sure, but I suspect that this is not true.

From my perspective, one thing that die hard, mall ninja wannabes and anti-gunners seem to agree on, is that semi-auto's can easilly be converted to full auto by adding or removing a couple of parts. I hear that all the time.

A little less frequently, but from what I would consider more credible sources, I hear that no, it's not that easy. It's damn near impossible.

So which is it? It seems to me that under the Firearms Act of 1934, weapons like that would already be illegal whether or not they've been converted.

Thanks

[kotengu]

"Easily convertable" is a very gray area that always seems to work against us. Many years ago there was a case prosecuted that established 8 hours in a machine shop counted as "easliy convertable," so I guess you could say your friends are right and all of these are easily converted to FA.

However, there is usually a good amount of milling and changing parts involved, otherwise the SA versions would not be legal in their current configurations. A good example of this is the STEN gun - in 8hrs in a machine shop you could just about make one from a pile of scraps, so I suppose if you have scrap metal in your shop you have a "machine gun." This is why it has been so difficult to come up with a SA STEN design that's kosher with the Feds......

[grimlock]

Straight answer? Yes and no. :D Some designs are tough to convert from semi-auto to full. Some designs can be converted just by milling down a piece of metal. Lot of talk lately about a one-part replacement to make Glocks full-auto.

[Black Snowman]

I have seen a weapon that can be converted from semi auto only to full auto only by removing one part and one spring. A process taking about 5 minutes with a pair of needle nose pliars.

I won't name the weapon as I don't think it needs to be common knowlege, but it's an in-production, perfectly legal weapon. A far cry from 8 hours in a machine shop.

But the fact is that full auto weapons aren't really that great of a threat to the public. They kill a fewer # of people than almost anything else in the united states. Even relative to their numbers in circulation, which are very small.

The counter to that argument is this: It's already illegal. Why outlaw something twice? Plus, there are much easier and cheaper ways to get automatic weapons through illegal channels. All banning assault weapons will do is make gun-running more profitable and therefore more prevelant and worth killing over, escelating the violance, just like Proabition and the War on Drugs.

This is exactly what's happened in England and to a lesser extent in Australia.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

There is also the question of what type of automatic you are looking at. I know of several conversions for some weapons that are simple enough; but they also cause the gun to fire until either the magazine is empty or (more commonly) there is a stoppage that interrupts the process.

Now that gun may be an evil automatic weapon; but it isn't a very practical one.

[mondocomputerman]

The AK varients are easy enough to make full auto, but without the fire control parts set you have the possibility of firing out of battery. I wouldn't try it, for legal and safety reasons. ...Also, I have a fire control parts set for my AK, just because I can. Would never think of installing it. I would have to alter the receiver, and anyone knowledgeable would know if they saw it. So even with the right parts, it's still a bit of a chore.

[T.Stahl]

I know a German police armorer who was among a team that was given the task to prove whether or not an semi-auto HK41 (~HK91) could be converted to full-auto.

He said it took them 15 minutes and no milling was involved. ;)

I think anyone who's into guns and their mechanics could figure out how to turn a semi-auto into a full-auto. The problem is, in most cases it would be full-auto only.

And as Jeff Cooper said, "May all your enemies..."

[Harry Tuttle]

a clever man could convert the rear end of a Volvo into a machinegun

[Ktulu]

Slam fire is not full-auto.

[Black Snowman]

mondocomputerman's comments about firing out of battery would hold true for the example I'm thinking of. It was never ment to go FA and there's no way to make it SAFELY do so without completely re-eningeering the trigger group.

[Destructo6]

For the AK specifically, you would need to precisely put another hole in the receiver. You would also have to cut a slot in one receiver rail. Trying to do those two things with hand tools would probably mangle the receiver badly enough to call it garbage. The proper way would be to take the receiver completely apart (ie remove the welded-in rails and rivets) and do any cutting on a mill, which would require quite a few tools and expertise.
I know a German police armorer who was among a team that was given the task to prove whether or not an semi-auto HK41 (~HK91) could be converted to full-auto.

He said it took them 15 minutes and no milling was involved.
Maybe no milling, but if German HK41s are anything like the ones here, you would need an entirely different trigger pack and a file.

Oh, and nobody ever said committing a felony was or even should be difficult.

[Master Blaster]

With respect to small arms like the AK and the AR-15, I dont see the lethality of full auto is any greater than the lethality of rapid aimed semi-auto fire. But if you dont want to aim you can bump fire a 30 rounder empty in pretty short order. You can also just pull the trigger pretty darn fast with some practice. Hits to the torso with aimed fire from a semi auto are just as lethal as hits to the torso with a full auto weapon.

Now if you are talking tripod mounted belt fed .50 cal. with a 5000 round magazine mounted on a truck now thats a machine gun to fear.

JMHO

[Detachment Charlie]

Eight hours on a high speed machining center and I can build a robot...a GIRL robot (who'll be carrying a full-auto weapon).
I agree with Harry Tuttle about the rear-end of a Volvo.

[cidirkona]

I've been told that a Glock 17 or 19 can be turned into an 18 with a dremmel tool and about half an hour of spare time - but that it leaves a 1/2"x1/2" hole on the side of the frame. I'd imagine the gang-bangers are getting decently handy with a dremmel tool...

-Colin

[Hawk]

Equating malfunctioning or bump-fired semi-autos to a "full auto conversion" isn't anything that'll do us gunnies any good. Sarah, Tom, a fair chunk of the population and half the senate are already confused (or deliberately misleading) on the topic.

Anybody that can convert a semi-auto to a full auto could probably, with just a bit more effort, build a SAW from scratch.

Let's put the "easily converted semi-auto" with the "Glock 7 ceramic non-detectable pistol", "$30.00 .50 BMG kit available over the internet", "exploding teflon coated armor piercing bullet" and all the other assorted offal and folk legends where it belongs.

[Kaylee]

After tinkering in a "tactical" gunsmith's shop and studying diagrams of the AR, M16A1, AK, and such, as well as playing in all their innards...
yes, it's possible to convert some semi-auto-only weapons to their select-fire counterparts....

IF you have the right parts (and just try to get them without a tax stamp!)
and
IF you're willing to modify the receiver in such a way that it will show
and
IF you're competent enough to do the machining involved in a couple places without ruining the weapon.

Of course, if you have the tools and parts and knowledge above, you could just as easily build a machine gun from scratch. I wouldn't go so far as to say a SAW for most folks... but a Sten or the like probably wouldn't be too terribly hard in most machine shops.

Remember, we ARE dealing with technology over a century old at this point. It's not like it's going away. :)

Now, there are also easier "shade tree gunsmith" tricks that *might* give you full auto for a while... but not without risking damage to your reciever at the least, and blowing up the weapon entirely with an out-of-battery discharge at worse.

Although I'm not as familiar with the HK or Glock innards, I rather suspect the "10 minutes and a file/dremel" stories mentioned above are of this variety. Some variant of detail removed for public consumption :) might give you sorta-kinda full auto only operation (and a trip to Club Fed if you're caught) if you're lucky... but it might just easily give you an uncontrollable run-away gun or better yet a nice shoulder-mounted hand-grenade-on-a-stick. Kids, DO NOT try this at home. :uhoh:

Gangbangers, it's easy. You start by cutting the barrel off between the gas port and the reciever, then welding a 1/8" of steel rod lengthwise inside the barrel to even out the gas pressure. After that, you.... :evil:


-K

[Hkmp5sd]

It seems to me that under the Firearms Act of 1934, weapons like that would already be illegal whether or not they've been converted.

All the 1934 law did was require the registration of machineguns. It did not ban them. You could do the paperwork, pay the fee and convert anything you wanted. This ended in 1986, when a law was passed in which ATF would no longer allow the registration of new machineguns. That's how the law worked. They believed that due to the 2nd Amendment they could not legally ban machineguns, but they figured out that preventing the registration of new ones would be equivalent. Since you can't register it, you can't legally buy or make it. All machineguns already registered are still available.

[armoredman]

Discussing illegal conversions is a good way to get ATFE very interested. (30 years and $30,000 for doing it, BTW.) Unfortunately, free speech only covers smearing yourself with chocolate syrup and broccoli, and calling it preformance art. Don't tempt fate.

[cidirkona]

Dont' get me wrong - I would never try it. I know it's illegal - I'm not even going to look up how to do it, these things are only hearsay that I've gotten from my CCW instructor.

Are LEO personell (average Joe Policeman) allowed to personally buy/own new full-auto firearms?

-Colin

[GooseGestapo]

RE: LEO's and class II and III firearms;

If Department owned, NO registration is required, except of course the Letter Head purchase requirements (tantamount to registration) for the Dept. to obtain in the first place.
If personally owned, YES, same rules apply as to everyone else.

In fact, in Georgia, a LEO is not required to have a Pistol Permit to carry concealed. However, if he/she dosen't have the permit, must pay the $5.00 background check fee each and every time they buy a firearm.

But, now that I'm retired, my CCW license is "FREE".

Go figure !!!???

[cidirkona]

Does the LEO have to give up his new FA firearms if he quits his job? Can he then sell them to other people now that they're registered?

-Colin

[Hkmp5sd]

Law Enforcement machineguns are owned by the police agency and are issued to the officer for his official use, just like in the army.

Generally, when a LEO goes through the paperwork jungle to buy his own machinegun, it is not for use in his law enforcement capacity.

[TechBrute]

Don't mean to interrupt the thread hijack :D, but the AR15 can be easily converted. The hardest part is machining the DIAS. The CAD files to have it machined are plenty of places over the internet I think I may have downloaded them from AR15.com, but I can't remember. The skill level of the machining is basic 101 stuff.

Along with the DIAS, you need a set of M16 internals. These are obtained easily enough if you know what you're looking for. As a matter of fact, if you're shopping for AR15 parts at a gunshow, you better know what you're looking for so that you don't accidentally come home with M16 parts as opposed to AR15 parts. Possesion of M16 parts along with an AR15 is a felony. Something about "constructive assembly" or other such nonsense.

[cidirkona]

Yeah, I always thought that was weird - you can own an AR-15, you can own the FA internals, but not both... I think you should be able to own whatever you want. Making a FA weapon without a manufacutring permit is still illegal, if I'm not mistaken...

-Colin

[fslflint]

ok, I am by no means an expert in this field. in fact I am only a freshman engineering student, I have little experience in a machine shop, and guns are just my hobbie. however, the reason I try to get experience in the machine shop and the reason I am in engineering is because I want to make firearms (someday and legally). I have designed a few firearms and they range from MP5 size sub guns to bolt action tactical rigs to large caliber machine guns. the firearms I design are on paper only as of now, simply an engineering exercise. the answer to your question depends ALLOT on the original design of the weapon and what you consider easy.

if you want to see a good example go to your local sporting goods store and pick up a tippmann (the best). take that marker home and take it apart. you will see that it works allot like (gasp) an open bolt machine gun. me and my brother both have one of these guns. I challenged him. I said I could convert mine to full auto in less than 15 minutes. I took it apart and modified the sear pivot pin and put it back together. it was a fully automatic paintball gun. granted I couldn't get the paintballs to gravity feed fast enough. but it worked flawlessly besides that. and besides that with 20 or so minutes in a decent shop (like the one in my garage) I could make a select fire (SA or FA) painball gun. now this wouldn't do me any good unless I could fix the feeding problem. but its a good example. it just takes some thinking and enginuety (sp?).

please don't take this wrong, I never plan on converting anything to full auto illegally. but this is just a good way to show simplicity of design is all it takes.

[Roboshred]

From my perspective, one thing that die hard, mall ninja wannabes and anti-gunners seem to agree on, is that semi-auto's can easilly be converted to full auto by adding or removing a couple of parts. I hear that all the time.

It would be very easy for anti's to start such a thread and take this information and hang it over the legal public's head. I realize this information is out there in the public but in ones own zeal to answer a question they may be sealing their fate. I would use great discretion in responding to posts like this when the poster has very few posts. No flame intended but the conversion is illegal and should be addressed as such. My car can go 150 mph but it doesn't because the owner respects the law. The same should be said for the illegal conversion of firearms. ;) RB

[fslflint]

thats exactly why I talked about a paintball gun in my post.

[possenti]

I'm assuming the paintball gun you're talking about is a Tippmann 98, or one of it's variants. It has a gravity-feed hopper like 99% of all other paintball guns. I once did an easy full-auto (selective fire) conversion to my old Spyder marker. I had the same problem with balls not feeding fast enough, and the gun virtually turned into a paint sprayer/spitter after the first ball fired. I even tried a motorized hopper, but although the balls were always being loaded into the feed tube, it still relied on gravity to feed balls into the reciever.

However . . . I have a Tippmann A-5 with the "cyclone feed" hopper. At the bottom of the hopper is a star-shaped device that holds 5 balls. With each shot, this feeding device rotates, by extra gas pressure, and shoves a new ball into the breech. I believe the feed rate will keep up with the cyclic rate of the action. One of my upcoming projects will be to convert the A-5 to select-fire, but I dread drilling a hole through the lower frame to do it.

[Mike Irwin]

The family station wagon is "easily convertible" into racing car.

Your home computer is "easily convertible" into a Cray-like super computer.


Both statements have a ring of truth to them.

The family Ford or Chevy station wagon share body types with NASCAR racing cars.

IF you were to get the physics right, and daisy chain enough home computer processors together, you could come close to emulating a Cray.

While both have a ring of truth, as I said, there's more to it than meets the eye.

Some older firearms could be easily converted to fire fully automatic. Since 1986, however, that's no longer the case. Semi-autos are a LOT harder (and some are simply impossible) to convert.

I'n some cases, it would be easier to make a gun from scratch rather than convert it.

[zahc]

I believe the feed rate will keep up with the cyclic rate of the action.

I'd be surprised. Most blowbacks go ~40cps on runaway. All it takes is a toothpick to do this to a 98c. I am an established tippmann-butcher. Mine is top-cocking.

We now return to regularly scheduled programming.

[Hutch]

This "easily converted" bidness is a buncha hooey. I saw a rubegoldberg mod, designed by John Moses hisself that allowed a Winchester 92 leveraction to go full auto. No foolin'. I think the Aussies did something similar for the SMLE.

[MeekandMild]

I don't know about converting from semi to full, but for an Uzi SMG owner it is impossible to use (cheap) semiauto replacement parts!!!

I wanted to get a replacement barrel for my SMG. If you've ever fired full auto you know why. They get hot then wear out. The barrel gets so hot you have to drop it into water or spend a half hour wandering around behind the firing line watching the other shooters before you can put the gun back into its case.

ANYWAY! So I looked at $29 SA barrels one day at a gun show and found they were the wrong diameter! So I got to talking to the guy who was selling them and he opened up one of his carbines to compare with my SMG. Basically they are entirely different guns which look cosmetically alike, sort of like the way a KIA and a Mercedes look alike from a quarter mile away. :rolleyes:

[fslflint]

I thought I was one of the only guys that did budget select fire conversions to cheap paintball guns. fun stuff! I'm a tippmann butcher too.:) :)

[Kenneth Lew]

I don't know about converting from semi to full, but for an Uzi SMG owner it is impossible to use (cheap) semiauto replacement parts!!!

I wanted to get a replacement barrel for my SMG. If you've ever fired full auto you know why. They get hot then wear out. The barrel gets so hot you have to drop it into water or spend a half hour wandering around behind the firing line watching the other shooters before you can put the gun back into its case.

ANYWAY! So I looked at $29 SA barrels one day at a gun show and found they were the wrong diameter! So I got to talking to the guy who was selling them and he opened up one of his carbines to compare with my SMG. Basically they are entirely different guns which look cosmetically alike, sort of like the way a KIA and a Mercedes look alike from a quarter mile away.

Full auto UZI (South African) barrels are only $25 ea. from a guy named barrelexchange on www.uzitalk.com.

Kenneth Lew

[MeekandMild]

Thanks for the link Ken, the price has come down for sure.

But my discussion of my search for a cheap barrel was just a lead-in to the discussion that the two guns are really different, with major differences in most of the internal parts, so that they are not the same gun at all.

[cidirkona]

Why worry about getting the Model98 to do any of these things? Just get a Timmy with the right board, or flash the board... and away you go. :)

I don't believe there could be a semi-auto that you couldn't convert to full-auto - if no internal work is possible, you could always make a trigger-pulling device...? Just wrap it around the trigger guard/frame. Hell - I made a automag (paintball marker!!) F/A way before the E-mag ever came out.

-Colin

[cidirkona]

It all still seems worthless to me though. I've only been in two scenario games that allowed full auto paintball markers.

For home defense, I would NOT want F/A. I need to know that ever round is going toward ceasing the threat to my life, and not into my neighbor's apartments. I also want more than 1 seconds' worth of ammunition...

-Colin

[zahc]

I have been in 2 games that did allow FA too-no big tragedy-I think FA should be allowed more in paintball, but that's a long discussion.

Why worry about getting the Model98 to do any of these things? Just get a Timmy with the right board, or flash the board... and away you go.

And that's the reason. Cheater boards and trigger bounce. F/A would be safer and more controllable. 'Semi' doesn't limit ROF anymore-if anything paintball needs more paint limiting.

I'm interested in how much the military actually uses FA. I heard some versions of the M16/4 aren't even select fire, or are burst only.

[cidirkona]

Tournaments I've played use a 200 ball-per-player limit, although we usually divy quite a bit over to the back players right off the bat. One pull, one ball.

-Colin

[zahc]

That's what I'm talking about. Never seen paint limiting myself.

Back on topic now?

I'm interested in how much the military actually uses FA. I heard some versions of the M16/4 aren't even select fire, or are burst only. is this true?