Wife needs shooting technique help.


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egyas
December 4, 2012, 06:50 PM
Guys, I know this is going to sound somewhat funny, but this is a serious question. I have been trying to teach my wife to shoot, and it has been, let's say, difficult.

I use the Isosceles stance when I shoot, and that's how I taught her. I just like the consistency it brings. However, it if very uncomfortable for her. See, my wife is very large breasted, and when she brings her weapon up and extends her arms, "the girls" always seem to be in the way. I have tried switching her to more of a Weaver stance, but she say's it's not very comfortable for her.

Any of our female shooters here have any advice for her? Or and husbands/boyfriends who's significant other has this same issue? I'm looking for advice.

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Trent
December 4, 2012, 07:02 PM
Oh man ... If I wasn't already sitting on a warning and an infraction I'd give some helpful advice. :)

My wife had back surgery, so shooting from an isosceles stance is difficult for her. Problem is with a weaver stance she can't hit diddly squat if the diddly were pasted to the broad side of a barn and she was standing IN the barn (her words). She's a royal terror with a rifle though, could castrate a chipmunk at 100 yards with our ... excuse me.. HER 22-250. (It used to be mine until she claimed it.)

Thinking about duracoating a PS90 pink for her for Christmas so she has a "handy rifle". :)

T Bran
December 4, 2012, 07:11 PM
It may be a good time to check around for a good female instructor.
This sounds like a good reason to seek profesional help from someone who has seen similar issues with other students of their own gender.
PS It may also save you from a fair ammount of greif.
T

Certaindeaf
December 4, 2012, 07:28 PM
How about one handed?

Reloadron
December 4, 2012, 07:38 PM
It may be a good time to check around for a good female instructor.
This sounds like a good reason to seek profesional help from someone who has seen similar issues with other students of their own gender.
PS It may also save you from a fair ammount of greif.
T
What he said. Sometimes it can be like teaching your wife to drive. it is best left to a professional. Additionally a woman instructor will see the problems right away and has likely had students with similar stature, she will know what works best. If your wife is uncomfortable with a stance the odds are good she will never develop good shooting skills in that stance. What she needs is a good professional female instructor.

Ron

Plan2Live
December 4, 2012, 07:42 PM
+1 on the advice to get some professional help, preferably a lady instructor.

What I have personally noticed at the range is that many women tend to lean back when shooting. This tends to raise certain female features whereas if they lean forward with their shoulders in front of their hips as is recommended, then certain female features tend to move lower and out of the way of the arms. Just a suggestion.

9mmepiphany
December 4, 2012, 08:00 PM
I'll tell you how to address the problem, but I'd also advise you not to try to teach her how to shoot...it is right up there with teaching her to drive...but rather should seek professional instruction

I've had several clients who were women, who have the same issue you are describing. None of my clients have had the problem you describe. You're likely not instructing the Isosceles position correctly.

For what you describe to be occurring, it is likely that she is over extending her arms...it is likely that she is locking them out when she shouldn't be. All she need to do is relax her arms and flex her elbows for clearance around her bosom

BCRider
December 4, 2012, 08:27 PM
For what you describe to be occurring, it is likely that she is over extending her arms...it is likely that she is locking them out when she shouldn't be. All she need to do is relax her arms and flex her elbows for clearance around her bosom

I was thinking that as well.

From helping out part time at a local Rent A Gun range on Lady's Nights I saw more than my share of both girls and guys that had never even held a handgun before. Almost universally the ladys tended to assume a posture of hips forward and shoulders WAAAAAYYYYY back as if the handgun weighed about 20 pounds and needed to be held that way to counter balance the "massive mass" of the gun. On top of this they locked their elbows and turned them INWARDs to the point that they looked like their arms were able to bend the wrong way. Some were so able to do this that it looked almost unnatural and freaky. If your wife is doing some or all of this same stuff then that is likely part of the problem.

I suspect that 9mm hit the nail on the head. Get her to slightly break her elbows and PIVOT THEM OUT!

There's a bucket load of great videos on You Tube about semi auto posture technique. Locate a few and get her to watch them. Then practice with an empty gun.

I'd also suggest that instead of you critiqueing her posture that you simply video or snap pictures of her from the side, quarter and behind and then show her the results and let her compare them to the You Tube videos.

If she can't see and correct the differences then it's likely time for one of the handgun schools instead of you trying to correct her.

If she complains that the correct posture is somewhat uncomfortable then simply counter with the fact that posing for Playboy is apparently tough on the joints as well.... This will either get a laugh or get you beaten about the head and shoulders. But I guarantee that it'll aid in relieving the tension.... :D

oneounceload
December 4, 2012, 08:31 PM
Start with www.thecorneredcat.com
and then follow that up with some real instruction WITHOUT you there

Sorry, most wives/girlfriends do better taking a lesson from someone they do not know

mnrivrat
December 4, 2012, 08:45 PM
How about she makes up her own stance that is comfortable and natural for her.

One persons way be it Weaver or whomever does not fit all.

If a two handed grip is not comfortable then as suggested, perhaps one handed will work best for her. Trying to bend the arms around the big girls just might make things turn out that way.

wrench
December 4, 2012, 11:06 PM
All good suggestions you've gotten so far. I agree with proper posture, leaning forward and breaking her elbows.
My SO is very well endowed, and has no issues at all holding and firing her pistols in an isosceles stance.
I just asked her about this, and her other suggestion was that a proper fitting bra makes all the difference in the world. Maybe a shopping trip to your nearest Nordstrom is in order-seriously.

armedandsafe
December 5, 2012, 12:06 AM
I once had a student with a similar problem. She was competitive good with a rifle, but couldn't get the pistol to eye level with her stance.

I had her take an offhand rifle stance without the rifle. Then I placed the pistol in her strong hand and moved the pistol out to a safe distance from her face. Then I brought her fore hand back to wrap around the strong hand while lifting the weakhand elbow sightly. I had her place her weak-hand thumb up against the pistol's frame to put some pressure against canting the piece. Her body stance automatically rotated to more straight on then the rifle position put her, so we had to move the weakhand foot back just a little.

It looks wierd to have the stronghand elbow up ear-high like that, but she was suddenly getting on target with no problem.

Pops

9mmepiphany
December 5, 2012, 12:15 AM
The solution for leaning back is pretty simple too. Many folks don't do it, even if they've been instructed to, because it isn't explained correctly.

All she has to do is bend her knees...it is a bit like posting in stirrups

230RN
December 5, 2012, 06:04 AM
I was going to suggest getting a laser sight for her. While lasers are no substitute for iron sights, for folks with specific problems (like declining eyesight, e.g.) it removes the necessity for bringing the gun up to eye level.

I got a laser for my 1911 and loved it so much that I also got one for my J-Frame. They're expensive, but hang the expense.

You can hold that dot pretty steady with a two-handed hold down near waist level. (Watch out for the slide comeback on a semiauto --don't hold it too close to the body.)

In addition, in low-light conditions, the muzzle flash is no longer at eye level and doesn't tend to blind you for an instant.

I'm a believer. Maybe your range has laser-sighted guns you can rent out and have her try it.

Terry, 230RN

Al Thompson
December 5, 2012, 11:15 AM
Strongly second the recommendation to get an instructor to work with her. :)

If you are comfortable mentioning your general location, I'm sure someone could steer you to a reputable person. This is not an unusual issue.

firecrackerktm
December 7, 2012, 01:54 AM
Another vote for outside help...even if not a professional, an experienced female shooter can help more than you can. I've seen it with motorcycling and snowboarding as well.

Sav .250
December 7, 2012, 10:07 AM
Tough to impose something on somebody if it doesn` work............

Try letting her get into something(stance) that is more comfortable for her. Remember,she`s the one shooting. One stance does not fit all!

bamajoey
December 7, 2012, 04:02 PM
I guess there is no room for humor here. Thanks Al Thompson for your edit.:rolleyes:

loose noose
December 8, 2012, 10:39 PM
I believe what some of you folks are talking about is the "Modified Weaver Stance", now that is a more natural shooting stance anyway. It allows a shooter to focus on sight alignment, and trigger control. :)

9mmepiphany
December 8, 2012, 11:20 PM
I believe what some of you folks are talking about is the "Modified Weaver Stance", now that is a more natural shooting stance anyway. It allows a shooter to focus on sight alignment, and trigger control. :)
I won't speak for other posters, but I am certainly not referring to a Modified Weaver stance.

While there may be a place for it's use...like when transversing a target...I would never recommend it as a basis to learn to shoot from as it introduces several force variables into the grip which may make learning trigger control much harder. Plus it makes shooting accurately at speed much harder

stickhauler
December 9, 2012, 04:30 AM
I'd no more try to teach my wife how to shoot than I'd go shopping for her wardrobe. Jewelry is OK, she says I have amazing abilities to choose stuff she likes. I think that's just a con job to convince me that buying expensive stuff is preferable to trying to go the cheaper route.

loose noose
December 10, 2012, 03:24 PM
9mm, I'm not exactly sure what you state as the "Modified Weaver Stance" having any affect on her trigger control? Perhaps we're talking about a different stance all together. Any type of shooting stance requires proper trigger control to consistently hit your target. I beleive the original poster said his wife's breast were quite large. Therefore I beleive in using a modified Weaver stance would help, as the Isoseles Stance would actually hinder, as well as the Weaver stance would in this case. Remember the main two functions used in combat shooting is "sight alignment and trigger control".:)

9mmepiphany
December 10, 2012, 05:43 PM
9mm, I'm not exactly sure what you state as the "Modified Weaver Stance" having any affect on her trigger control?
If you reread what I wrote, you see that it isn't what you have posted.

I posted:
it introduces several force variables into the grip which may make learning trigger control much harder.
...which speaks to the how the force variables affect the grip, not the trigger control.

What I further posted was that these grip variables affect the learning of trigger control. That is that it makes it harder to correctly learn trigger control because it is harder to maintain a consistent learning base to judge corrections to the grip

Once you have learned correct trigger control, what I call trigger management, you can utilize and stance you want. You can even shoot while standing on one foot...which a lot of action shooters will do in competition

Perhaps we're talking about a different stance all together.

...Therefore I beleive in using a modified Weaver stance would help
My understanding is that the Modified Weaver is closer to the Chapman where the feet/body is more bladed away from the target (since the Weaver and Modern Isosceles use the same foot placement).

I would think that blading the body would only exaggerate the problem

loose noose
December 11, 2012, 09:56 AM
9mm, now I know what you're saying, but I thought she was allready an outstanding shot with the rifle, therefore I thought she had trigger control down. I was thinking using a "Modified Weaver Stance" that it would have a way of, shall I say, shooting around her breasts.:)

9mmepiphany
December 11, 2012, 11:44 AM
but I thought she was allready an outstanding shot with the rifle, therefore I thought she had trigger control down.
I wouldn't personally assume that. There is something about taking away the rear pivoting anchor point when aligning a handgun that adversely affects trigger management

TonyDedo
December 11, 2012, 11:47 AM
+1 for professional, in person advice.

We can spout all the theory in the world, but no advice we can give will counter "but that doesn't feel comfortable." You have to be there in person, and she needs to be open minded to advice.

It'll be well worth paying for a few hours with a professional coach.

mgmorden
December 11, 2012, 11:50 AM
How about she makes up her own stance that is comfortable and natural for her.

That's about how I view it. One of Bruce Lee's main things that he railed against in martial arts was that too many people became so devoted to specific techniques that they wasted time and energy moving into specific stances while fighting. By learning to fight from whatever position you happened to find yourself in, he was more efficient and deadly.

I look at handgun shooting much the same way. I line up my sights and take my shots. I don't worry about what position my body is in as during an action-shooting course it may be just about anywhere as moving about the field requires.

egyas
December 11, 2012, 11:46 PM
Guys, thanks for all the advice. I decided to heed the many calls for outside advice, and I'm talking to an instructor at the local indoor range.

Just for clarification, by "teach her how to shoot" I was referring to the fundamentals, safety, and what I was taught about the isosceles stance. We tried many options trying to find something comfortable for her, but I wasn't trying to force her into anything specific.

9MMare
December 12, 2012, 12:55 AM
Hmm. That is not a problem for me and I would say that my frontal real estate is substantial.

My stance tends to be leaning a bit forward, both elbows slightly to moderately bent (def. not locked), and probably because I'm leaning forward, my arms are up high enough for clearance :D

I do IDPA practice so I have a more flexible stance...since we do alot of moving. I'm not claiming any perfect stance or great skill tho. Jus' sayin'.

9mmepiphany
December 12, 2012, 01:53 AM
Just for clarification, by "teach her how to shoot" I was referring to the fundamentals, safety, and what I was taught about the isosceles stance. We tried many options trying to find something comfortable for her, but I wasn't trying to force her into anything specific.
I don't think anyone was thinking you were forcing her into anything. It was mostly advocates of the two major shooting styles trying to present their side...it is like a cold war :eek:

There really is a lot more to correct shooting grip/stance/style and technique than many believe. The biggest thing is understanding why certain things are done certain ways that help a new shooter accomplish the goal...rather than just copy what they are shown.

You'll often hear, "one style doesn't fit everyone" or "do what works for you", and I suspect that comes from people who don't really understand the optimal technique to accomplish what they want. There are many paths to attain the goal and there are different goals in shooting...but there is an optimal way to do it

Sheepdog1968
December 12, 2012, 01:00 PM
Does she have any female friends or is there any females at the range with a similar body type as hers? In all likelyhood, a woman of a similar body type to your wife is probably going to have the best advice.

CommanderCrusty
December 12, 2012, 01:24 PM
Firing stance is NOT a fundamental. Let me say it again so you'll know I said it on purpose: Firing stance is NOT a fundamental. Why not? If you can hit with Isosceles, and I can hit with Weaver, than neither stance is a requirement for good shooting. Right? Therefore NOT a fundamental.

So, what ARE the fundamentals (with a nod to Brian Enos)?


She must find the target. A clear target focus will help her quickly drive the gun onto the target.
She must put the gun on the target. Maybe literally touching the target, but usually visually putting the front sight on the target.
She must keep the gun on the target while she fires the shot. When she sees the muzzle flash, she will know the bullet has left the barrel.


So, teach her how to use her eyes to find and focus on the target.

Teach her to put the gun on the target using whatever stance feels most comfortable. They ain't called hand-s-guns! She can shoot one handed all day long and still hit the target with no interference from The Girls.

Teach her to follow through using the old dime on the barrel or slide, big, close targets and, perhaps best of all, a laser sight. With a laser, she can shoot one handed, two handed, elbow on the ground, behind her back. Wherever she can see to put that laser dot, she can learn to roll that trigger back and get good hits. Can't afford a laser? Watch for that muzzle flash. It is there, to some degree, with every load in every gun.

Tip number two, when all else fails, pay someone ELSE to train her. Sometimes we just can't teach wives or children.

hso
December 13, 2012, 02:13 PM
I always recommend a spouse not try to train their partner. Too many complicated dynamics.
I also don't recommend an amateur train someone on something this critical once it becomes apparent that there's something being lost in communication.

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/the-shooting-basics/stance/

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Triangle.Isosceles.svg/74px-Triangle.Isosceles.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Triangle.Right.svg/150px-Triangle.Right.svg.png

Which of the above triangles provides less of "pinch"?

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