maybe things could improve for CCW if.....


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orienteeer
December 5, 2012, 12:14 AM
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/12/the-case-for-more-guns-and-more-gun-control/309161/

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Davek1977
December 5, 2012, 04:36 AM
If what? I read the article, but fail to see how it answers your proposed question. Are you saying maybe things will improve for CCW'ers if people realize how many guns are actually out there? The sad fact is reason, logic, and common sense are often lacking from those with anti-gun views. They are so emotionally vested in what they think is reality that they have no room to accept facts that conflict with their delusions. Reality has no place in the anti-gunner's toolbox.....the arguments are based in emotion, and someone so emotionally vested will not change their views when presented with contrary viewpoints or information that conflicts with that they believe.

Solo
December 5, 2012, 04:43 AM
Mauser said that if the United States were as mature as the countries of Europe, where strict gun control is the norm, the federal government would have a much easier time curtailing the average citizen’s access to weapons.
Given Europe's history of petty conflicts, oppressive governments, imperialism, ethnic cleansing, and genocide...

SMMAssociates
December 5, 2012, 05:28 AM
Besides the hoplophobes total inability to see logic here, the problem is not that the average citizen has (or can easily obtain) a gun, but that the non-average (i.e., criminal) citizen can, and will....

Fix that problem, and maybe we can talk.... :(

Instead, the government keeps finding ways to make criminals out of Law Abiding Citizens, or to crucify us if one of use manages to actually need to protect ourselves.

Not to mention free fire zones and things like that.

Seems like fixing that is rather more important....

As to the number of guns out there, the big question is how many of those guns are in the hands of criminals?

Regards,

evan price
December 5, 2012, 05:46 AM
They think making guns illegal will keep people from getting them.

That theory seems to be working marvelously with regard to drugs, isn't it?

MedWheeler
December 5, 2012, 07:36 AM
Mauser said that if the United States were as mature as the countries of Europe, where strict gun control is the norm, the federal government would have a much easier time curtailing the average citizen’s access to weapons.

.. and the average citizen's access to freedoms of speech, assembly, privacy, and religion, free-market economy and prosperity, and freedom from oppression.

bikerdoc
December 5, 2012, 09:58 AM
Crime control, crazy people control, bad behavior and upbringing control, not gun control.

PedalBiker
December 5, 2012, 10:59 AM
Given Europe's history of petty conflicts, oppressive governments, imperialism, ethnic cleansing, and genocide...

No doubt. Not to mention that Europe incubated both world wars and basically invented the industrial elimination of humans via information technology and factory human slaughter.

Now contrast this with one deranged individual on a crime spree --- wow what a comparison.

Neo-Luddite
December 5, 2012, 11:21 AM
More "let's keep the discussion of 'compromise' on the 'gun issue' going"---just another ham handed overature at getting the nose under Our collective 2nd amdt tent. At times well sounded, even fair, but at day's end mimetic warfare forces a choice and we all (or at least I) see this sort for what it is. A shade more sophisticated than ASHA was, but from a similar camp.

Notice how the unsettled case of that fellow that shot Mr. Martin was strictly couched as a vigilante action somehow made possible by FLA CCW. Could be so, but, yeh--it's not settled yet.

razorback2003
December 5, 2012, 04:02 PM
“We’re still at the stage of rebellious teenager, and we don’t like it when the government tells us what to do. People don’t trust government to do what’s right. They are very attracted to the idea of a nation of individuals, so they don’t think about what’s good for the collective.”

I feel sorry for this man to lose his son but collectivism did not work too well for Russia.

sawdeanz
December 5, 2012, 06:21 PM
Nice to read a thoughtful and reasoned article. Especially when he said gun control isn't the only way to stop crime, guns themselves can be used to stop crime.

PedalBiker
December 5, 2012, 11:16 PM
In a dark and crowded theater, he said, facing someone wearing bullet-resistant armor on much of his body, a gun, even in trained hands, would have been unlikely to do much good.

I have a flashlight even when I don't have a gun. It turns out his "armor" was fake and it still hurts when you get hit.

In a movie theater the floor slopes down toward the theater, combine that with shooting from a low position and the angles can work in your favor. In addition, it's a great reason to have more than one person on your team, someone should have a clean shot.

The biggest risk is not the "crossfire" it's the responding police who have no context on the matter, not having been there from the start. This is where a clear description of the crime scene to the 911 operator becomes crucial (if the message gets passed along). Shots fired is about the worst report you can give.

Others contend that proving causality between crime rates and the number of concealed-carry permits is impossible. “It’s difficult to make the case that more concealed-carry guns have led to the drop in the national crime rate, because cities like Los Angeles, where we have very restrictive gun-control laws, have seen the same remarkable drop in crime,” Winkler told me. (Many criminologists tend to attribute America’s dramatic decrease in violent crime to a combination of demographic changes, longer criminal sentencing, innovative policing techniques, and the waning of the crack wars.)

That's because it matters greatly who has the guns and because there so many conflicting agents and causes of crime. Just because you get a permit does not make you a good person, just like getting a driver's license doesn't make you a good person.

At some point we'll have to accept the fact that having freedom comes with a cost. The freedom to drive costs us 38,000 people per year.

So far concealed carry has been a net benefit for society. If we become a fractured and dysfunctional society it may not work out the same. We have to be good people, with our without guns, to have a workable society.

Davek1977
December 6, 2012, 04:33 AM
Mauser said that if the United States were as mature as the countries of Europe, where strict gun control is the norm, the federal government would have a much easier time curtailing the average citizen’s access to weapons. Why do people so quickly forget that we didn't WANT to be like the "established" European countries! We fought wars and people died to separate us from that kind of oppression. A different approach to things doesn't reflect a lack of maturity so much as it signifies a willingness to look at things differently and change the status quo. Just because it was way back in 1776 that we declared our independence doesn't mean we don't still value, treasure, embrace, and respect that independence. We're not like the Europe becasue we are immature...we are different than Europe because thats what generations of European immigrants WANTED in their new country. If we were content with the status quo, the War of Independence would have never been fought. It was fought, however, and we EARNED our right to do things differently.

Ragnar Danneskjold
December 6, 2012, 06:13 AM
Not to mention free fire zones and things like that.

Huh?

Carl N. Brown
December 6, 2012, 12:22 PM
I like (not) the argument that since the Aurora Theatre mass murderer was wearing "tactical clothing" that guns would be useless for self-defense in general.

As I recall, the only item of his "tactical clothing" remotely bullet proof was the shin guards. The "tactical vest" was was just black nylon with pockets and loop for carrying magazines, flashlight, etc.

Amazing how "tactical clothing"--a nylon vest with pockets--has morphed into "protective clothing" then into bullet proof armor. His vest would have had less resistence to a bullet than my ordinary leather jacket.

The home invader who assaulted my sister in her living room after kicking in the door at 2:00am was wearing street clothes. He fled at the sight of her .357 and his accomplice waited meekly at gun point for the police to arrive. Neither were dressed in full body armor like the North Hollywood bankrobbers. Neither was James Eagan Holmes, neither are most street criminals or home invaders.

Frank Ettin
December 6, 2012, 08:23 PM
...In a movie theater the floor slopes down toward the theater, combine that with shooting from a low position and the angles can work in your favor. In addition, it's a great reason to have more than one person on your team, someone should have a clean shot...The Aurora, CO theater shooter is probably a very poor exemple if one wants to argue the social utility of private citizens carrying conceal firearms. And instead of speculating, Michael Bane and some colleagues got some people together, rented a movie theater and did some modeling. That was described in this article (http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/specials/2012concealed_story.html?id=226738) (discussed in this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=684086)):....An example from our most ambitious simulation, modeling the Aurora, CO, theater active shooter situation. We rented a movie theater, gathered up an audience and ran the sim over and over again. What we found was, essentially, a worst case scenario for the CCW civilian:

1) There are lots of "innocents" all over the place, mostly running and screaming.
2) Theater seats make lousy hard cover.
3) Exits are natural "choke points."
4) Do you really want to stick your head up when bullets are flying?

So what kind of "take-aways" did we glean from the simulations? "Don't go to midnight movie premiers," Michael Janich suggested wryly....

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