Difference between Redding Competition & Type S Neck Sizer


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capreppy
December 6, 2012, 08:00 AM
What is the difference between the Redding Competition & Type S Neck Sizer? I know the competition version has the micrometer, but what is it for?

My assumption is you'll set the die to neck size what you want of the neck and then leave it. With that being said, would the micrometer just help adjust up or down the amount being sized AFTER you set the die?

If that is true, in what situation would that even be necessary?

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cfullgraf
December 6, 2012, 09:22 AM
The micrometer on the competition replaceable bushing sizer die makes it easy to dial in the exact amount of neck sizing the operator wants. And it is easier to adjust.

The design of the die also supports the case better under sizing.

The S bushing die has a replaceable bushing for sizing. Otherwise it is just like a conventional sizing die.

243winxb
December 6, 2012, 09:36 AM
"The micrometer adjustment of the bushing position delivers precise control to the desired amount of the neck length to be sized." from Midwayusa website. I found using the FL S bushing die, accuracy is better by sizing only about 1/2 of the neck. If i size more of the neck, going closer to the shoulder, groups get bigger. Rifle Rem 40x 243 factory chamber. Take note that Bench Rest guys, with 6ppc, FL size every time controlling shoulder bump. Maybe Walkalong will reply, he knows more then me. Keep in mind, each firearm may like something different. Test, Test, Test.

capreppy
December 6, 2012, 09:42 AM
The design of the die also supports the case better under sizing.

The S bushing die has a replaceable bushing for sizing. Otherwise it is just like a conventional sizing die.

So the competition neck sizer is kinda like the competition seater in that it has a sleeve for the brass? or just does better to support the brass during the sizing activity?

capreppy
December 6, 2012, 09:43 AM
I found using the FL S bushing die, accuracy is better by sizing only about 1/2 of the neck. If i size more of the neck, going closer to the shoulder, groups get bigger. Rifle Rem 40x 243 factory chamber. Take note that Bench Rest guys, with 6ppc, FL size every time controlling shoulder bump. Maybe Walkalong will reply, he knows more then me. Keep in mind, each firearm may like something different. Test, Test, Test.
Good to know.

243winxb
December 6, 2012, 09:48 AM
yes, has a sleeve, that may or may not fit the fired or sized brass correctly. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/792423/redding-competition-bushing-3-die-neck-sizer-set-308-winchester

capreppy
December 6, 2012, 10:31 AM
yes, has a sleeve, that may or may not fit the fired or sized brass correctly. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/792423/redding-competition-bushing-3-die-neck-sizer-set-308-winchester
I don't think I've every looked that closely at the Competition Neck Sizer and yes I do see the sleeve (similar to the Competition Seater).

Fatelvis
December 6, 2012, 10:58 AM
I have both the "S" and Comp styles. I don't spend the extra $ on the comp design anymore. The "S" style does the job wonderfully, I don't need a micrometer adjustment, and the sleeve (to me), isnt necessary. What IS VERY important, is that the bushing is allowed to "float", or shift side to side within the die. This allows the bushing to center itself on the neck, and doesnt pull it off center.
Tip:
Now that I mostly only neck size, I use a "S" style neck sizer die from a short, stubby cartridge, (7BR), and use it with different bushings for all my cartridges. I just buy different bushings, and use the same die! The saved money goes into more TiN bushings, not in my savings account! Lol

Walkalong
December 7, 2012, 08:46 AM
I used to size about 2/3 of the neck in my .262 6PPC bolt gun. A little experimentation will show you what works. Like 243winxb posted, test, test, test. I do agree that there is a point where sizing too much of the neck defeats the purpose of sizing just part of the neck.

Redding makes neck sizing only bushing dies and full length bushing dies. Both bushing type dies are "s" dies, but one sizes the neck only and one sizes the whole case. You control how much of the neck to size with an adjustment on the die, and how tight to squeeze the neck with whatever size bushing you choose. I would not buy a micrometer top to adjust how far down to size the neck, because this is almost always a set and forget adjustment. I guess if someone is using the same die for different calibers it might come in handy. The micrometer top for the seater can be extremely handy if you are using more than one bullet in that caliber.

For .308 I now have three sizes of Forster bushings and three sizes of Redding bushing to go along with the Forster neck sizer which can bump the shoulder (Bushing Bump Die), and the FL Redding sizer. (S Type FL sizer)

Most who neck size only with bushing dies also use a Redding Body Die or standard FL sizer for when the cases eventually get tight chambering. (The shoulder is generally more the culprit here than the body IMHO). The more pressure you run, the more often the brass will need the body die.

As with all rifle loads, you just have to try things in your rifle. There are general things that tend to work in most rifles, but your rifles particular tastes must be tested for.

There is no free lunch when searching for that last little bit of accuracy. You must work for it. :)

capreppy
December 7, 2012, 10:26 AM
If I wanted to go bushing, would a FL bushing die (to size and bump the shoulder in one step) and a neck bushing die work well together?

This is going to be for a bolt action 260 Rem. Main purpose of this rig is paper punching or steel at distance. I want to squeeze as much accuracy as possible keeping budget in mind. I want the most bang for the buck. I won't be competing, but may eventually. If I do, then I'll probably spend the money on Lapua brass and better bullets (starting with Nosler .264 140gr CC). I probably will only load one bullet profile so no need to make any adjustments to the die. Even if I do, sounds like the only thing I would is a different bushing appropriate for the other bullet.

For those that have gone the Redding bushing route, what are your thoughts on the carbide size button.

Fatelvis
December 7, 2012, 10:49 AM
For your bolt gun, a NS bushing die would be a great idea. When using the proper bushing, it is immediately obvious how much less the necks are being worked. (Compared to a regular sizer). You will feel it in the pull of the press handle. Also, when an expander ball is desired, the carbide kit from Redding is worth the money. It also is noticably easier to pull through the neck, and has the benefit of floating on the decapper stem, so it self-aligns in the neck, helping to eliminate pulling the neck outta whack! Usually a expander is not needed, IMO, because the proper bushing size will create proper neck tension.
I've only been using the Redding dies until now, but Forster sure is tempting me! You asked about a bushing FL die. Redding makes FL and NS bushing dies, but does not make a bushing shoulder bump die. Forster offers the shoulder bump die. (I gotta get one!)

By the way, I have found for long range work, nothing beats Lapua brass. Verrry consistant neck thickness, overall weights, nice flashholes, and pliability. IMO, They are worth the money when trying to get the most accuracy out of your rig.

capreppy
December 7, 2012, 10:53 AM
Don't need the bushing shoulder bump if I am FL sizing (although conceptually, that is pretty cool). The ONLY time I would FL size is when I needed to bump the shoulder back AND still do the necks, otherwise would only use the bushing neck sizer.

The really cool thing (at least in my opinion) is the ability to use the same expander mandrel in both the FL and Neck sizer. You would only need to pick up one carbide size button and just move the entire mandrel to the other die as needed.

USSR
December 7, 2012, 10:58 AM
If I wanted to go bushing, would a FL bushing die (to size and bump the shoulder in one step) and a neck bushing die work well together?

This is going to be for a bolt action 260 Rem. Main purpose of this rig is paper punching or steel at distance. I want to squeeze as much accuracy as possible keeping budget in mind. I want the most bang for the buck. I won't be competing, but may eventually. If I do, then I'll probably spend the money on Lapua brass and better bullets (starting with Nosler .264 140gr CC). I probably will only load one bullet profile so no need to make any adjustments to the die. Even if I do, sounds like the only thing I would is a different bushing appropriate for the other bullet.

For those that have gone the Redding bushing route, what are your thoughts on the carbide size button.

No need for both a FL bushing die and necksizing bushing die, as both dies will size the neck. I would suggest either the FL bushing die or the necksizing bushing die AND the body die. Personally, I use the necksizing bushing die and body die to essentially FL size my brass. "...sounds like the only thing I would is a different bushing appropriate for the other bullet." No, you don't need different size bushings for different bullets, you need different size bushings for different makes of brass or to change the amount of neck tension on your brass. No need for a sizing button with bushing dies, as it defeats the benefit of bushing dies of working your necks less. While I believe the expander comes with the Type S FL sizing die, just remove it and you will be fine. In fact, just remove the decapping pin altogether and do your spent primer removal with a Universal Decapping die. Hope that helps.

Don

Fatelvis
December 7, 2012, 11:00 AM
An expander doesnt need to be used with a FL or NS bushing die. The bushing will create a perfectly round neck, with proper tension. There is a fitting in the Redding die box that will let you eliminate the expander, leaving just the decapping stem, and it will never touch the inside of the neck, while depriming.

capreppy
December 7, 2012, 11:02 AM
So why does Redding even have the expander in there in first place?

Or is it for brass that 1x fired from another gun that may need the necks expanded to take out dents?

Fatelvis
December 7, 2012, 11:04 AM
Some people still like to use it, or if you have brass with dented mouths, it will blow them out.

USSR
December 7, 2012, 02:41 PM
Some people still like to use it, or if you have brass with dented mouths, it will blow them out.

+1. You know how some people are who have always done something one way and don't feel comfortable with change. As for the occasional dented mouth, just use something round and tapered such as a nail set punch or a knife sharpening tool to remove the dent.

Don

243winxb
December 7, 2012, 03:15 PM
Use with or without an expander. Use as a body die with expander & bushing removed. Use with a Lee collet die & body die. Case life is not hurt by FL sizing if you control shoulder bump. Have brass loaded 18 times with no expander used. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Redding_1.jpg

Walkalong
December 7, 2012, 03:40 PM
No need for both a FL bushing die and necksizing bushing die, as both dies will size the neck. I would suggest either the FL bushing die or the necksizing bushing die AND the body die.
Case life is not hurt by FL sizing if you control shoulder bump.

Yep. :)

capreppy
December 7, 2012, 05:41 PM
Thanks for all the info. I will probably pull the trigger on a set at the end of the month. For $30 more than the Type S Match, the Competition set looks pretty appealing.

thump_rrr
December 8, 2012, 09:17 AM
A question concerning bushing selection.
I'm looking at a set of the Redding .308. competition dies.
It says to measure a loaded round and take an average reading and remove .001 for bushing size.

My loaded rounds of Lapua with 180gr SMK's come in at .3395 near the top of the neck and .3415 closest to the shoulder.
Which 2 bushing sizes would you go with?

243winxb
December 8, 2012, 09:59 AM
thump rrr, depends on action type, Single shot or auto? Always go at least .002" So start with .337" bushing. Adjust up or down from there. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=431015

Walkalong
December 8, 2012, 10:08 AM
My .308 Winchester WCC nato marked brass has necks that measure about .013 to around .016, depending on where you measure around the circumference.

My .308 Hornady Match marked brass has necks that measure about .0125 to around .0135, depending on where you measure around the circumference. Imagine that, the match brass case walls/necks are more consistent all the way around. The stuff accuracy is made of.

I have .332, .334, .335, & .336 bushings.

Up until now I have been using a standard Redding sizer with a carbide expander ball for loading hunting and plinking ammo. Now that I bought a rifle to load very accurate ammo for, I bought other dies. I may end up with another size bushing, but time will tell.

You need a ball micrometer to accurately measure brass thickness on case necks. A dial or digital caliper will not do it accurately.

Your brass must have thicker walls than the brass I have, because a loaded round in the Winchester brass measures about .337. (.013+.016+.308=.337. Hey, the math works. It doesn't always come out exactly if you measure to .0001))

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=175920&stc=1&d=1354975117

USSR
December 8, 2012, 12:49 PM
My loaded rounds of Lapua with 180gr SMK's come in at .3395 near the top of the neck and .3415 closest to the shoulder.
Which 2 bushing sizes would you go with?

What is the neck diameter of that round after it has been fired in your rifle? Why do I ask? Because if it measures about .005" or more greater in diameter than the loaded round measures (.3395"), then whatever size bushing you use will likely resize the neck .001" smaller than the size of the bushing. For this reason, a lot of guys will resize the neck in two steps, using two different size bushings to get the neck tension that they want. In your case, using Lapua brass, I would just get a .338" bushing. I suggest you pay the extra $$$ and get the TiN bushings, as it eliminates have to lube your necks. Hope that helps.

Don

Walkalong
December 8, 2012, 01:03 PM
Excellent points.

thump_rrr
December 8, 2012, 05:05 PM
What is the neck diameter of that round after it has been fired in your rifle? Why do I ask? Because if it measures about .005" or more greater in diameter than the loaded round measures (.3395"), then whatever size bushing you use will likely resize the neck .001" smaller than the size of the bushing. For this reason, a lot of guys will resize the neck in two steps, using two different size bushings to get the neck tension that they want. In your case, using Lapua brass, I would just get a .338" bushing. I suggest you pay the extra $$$ and get the TiN bushings, as it eliminates have to lube your necks. Hope that helps.

Don
The fired necks measure 0.345 +/- 0.0005 measured with a mic.
The case necks are mostly between 0.0155 and 0.0165 thick.

The necks on my Winchester brass measure between 0.0122 and 0.0137 for the sake of comparison.

Fatelvis
December 8, 2012, 05:16 PM
a lot of guys will resize the neck in two steps, using two different size bushings to get the neck tension that they want.
So using two progressively smaller bushings will eliminate that added .001" of sizing? I have experienced this.

USSR
December 8, 2012, 07:26 PM
So using two progressively smaller bushings will eliminate that added .001" of sizing? I have experienced this.

Yep.

Don

Fatelvis
December 8, 2012, 09:37 PM
Very good to know!

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