Help! Gun transfer issue...


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Njal Thorgeirsson
December 6, 2012, 08:05 PM
So I purchased a rifle via Gunbroker (from an individual), payed and such, and went to my local FFL (who had previously told me they could accept transfers from individuals) to set up a transfer. When I got there, I verified with them that a transfer from an individual (non FFL holder) was acceptable, so I had them send the individual their FFL info.

Fast forward two days. The gun has shipped, and I get a call from my local FFL, telling me that they will not accept transfers from individuals. :banghead:

Are there any easy solutions? Have them just refuse the shipment, and have the seller transfer through an FFL when he gets the gun back?

Is it illegal for an FFL to accept a transfer gun from an individual?

Thanks!

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smalls
December 6, 2012, 08:16 PM
It's not illegal, but they may choose not to do so. I have no idea why some FFL's choose not to.

If they refuse to accept it, it has to go back to the seller. I was thinking maybe they could just ship it to another FFL who will, but I believe they'd have to log it into their bound book first, which they're refusing to do.

1 old 0311-1
December 6, 2012, 08:20 PM
Your FFL is being a JERK!!!!!!!!!! Go to home page of G-broker, enter your zip code, and find someone local. They are everywhere BUT your FFL's refusal will cost you another shipping charge. Make sure you pass the word on him.

Teachu2
December 6, 2012, 08:26 PM
Sincethey agreed to accept it and sent the individual the FFL, I would insist they reimburse you for the added costs, even if you have to file a small claims action. Call the seller and have them recall the shipment with the shipper, so the jerks don't decide to recieve it "damaged". Once the gun gets to you safely, post the jerks name, please.

NavyLCDR
December 6, 2012, 09:09 PM
Since they did send the seller a copy of their FFL, I would take it to small claims court as well. Sending the seller of a copy of their FFL is more than enough evidence, IMHO, that they told you they would accept the gun for transfer. Probably the only recourse is to have the jerk refuse shipment and have the seller send the gun to a more reputable FFL.

Njal Thorgeirsson
December 6, 2012, 09:09 PM
Well, I just called to get some more details, advice, and to ask them to either make an exception and accept it, or to reimburse me for added shipping costs.

They told me that they have no problems accepting firearms directly from individuals, the only problem was that they hadn't received a scan of the person's drivers license yet (which makes sense because he mailed it less than 24 hours ago), and that they would hold onto it until the transfer could be completed. :confused:

Stark contrast to phone call I got from an angry man telling me that they were going to send my gun back to where it came from because they absolutely do not ever accept guns from non-FFLs. :scrutiny:

A frustrating experience, but hopefully that will be the last of my issues with this firearm transaction. BTW, this is from a very popular gun store that I have given tons of business to in the past.

Thanks for the advice!

NavyLCDR
December 6, 2012, 09:46 PM
They told me that they have no problems accepting firearms directly from individuals, the only problem was that they hadn't received a scan of the person's drivers license yet (which makes sense because he mailed it less than 24 hours ago), and that they would hold onto it until the transfer could be completed. :confused:

Did they also specify that they wanted a copy of the seller's driver's license to receive the gun? Company policy only, not required by law.

bikemutt
December 6, 2012, 11:38 PM
Every FFL I've dealt with wants the driver license when receiving from a non-licencee. It makes sense to me since local FFLs have the same requirement when buying or taking a gun in on trade.

Maybe it looks good in the bound book instead "Joe from Kansas".

Njal Thorgeirsson
December 6, 2012, 11:55 PM
Every FFL I've dealt with wants the driver license when receiving from a non-licencee. It makes sense to me since local FFLs have the same requirement when buying or taking a gun in on trade.

Maybe it looks good in the bound book instead "Joe from Kansas".
I have absolutely no problems whatsoever with them requiring his ID.

It was a frustrating situation because I arranged a transfer and ok'd it with them, then after it ships I get an angry phone call that they can't accept transfers from individuals. ever. period. And that they would be sending the rifle back to the individual because he was not an FFL.

Then I called them back to get details, and they told me that everything was in order if he sends a scan of his ID, and that I could subsequently pick up the rifle when it comes in.

NavyLCDR
December 6, 2012, 11:57 PM
Every FFL I've dealt with wants the driver license when receiving from a non-licencee. It makes sense to me since local FFLs have the same requirement when buying or taking a gun in on trade.

Maybe it looks good in the bound book instead "Joe from Kansas".

Can you show us the requirement to see identification for the person from whom the FFL received the firearm? The only requirement is:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=be0ad7dc46af56621230483aadcf8812&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&idno=27#27:3.0.1.2.3.8.1.6
27 CFR 478.125:
(e) Firearms receipt and disposition by dealers.
...
The purchase or other acquisition of a firearm shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm.

The required information can be obtained from the return address label of the shipped firearm, and verified by asking the buyer, "Who did you buy the gun from and where did you send the payment?"

No requirement for identification from the seller. In fact, my driver's license does not have my current address on it, so the FFL would be recording erroneous information if they went off my driver's license.

mnrivrat
December 7, 2012, 05:38 AM
They told me that they have no problems accepting firearms directly from individuals, the only problem was that they hadn't received a scan of the person's drivers license yet (which makes sense because he mailed it less than 24 hours ago), and that they would hold onto it until the transfer could be completed.

Seller should have no problem scanning his DL and e-mailing it to your FFL or you to complete the transaction. On guns I sold via internet I always enclosed a copy of my DL . He can black out the license number if he thinks that is an issue but FFL dealers need to registor an acqusition and that is the best way to take care of it.

Sounds like your FFL has some OK people and some not OK people. Once the transfer is done I would find someone else (FFL) for the next time.

Alnamvet68
December 7, 2012, 07:55 AM
The truth of the matter is that an FFL dealer can refuse to accept a handgun shipped to him as a matter of personal/store policy. In these cases, the FFL may not have been informed and asked by the buyer of the weapon that he (the buyer) would like to have the FFL receive the weapon and pay whatever the transfer fee is required. My FFL has had a number of instances where a handgun just shows up with absolutely no knowledge of who bought the weapon. When this happens, the FFL will simply return the gun to the FFL who sent it. Now, if the sender of the gun was an individual who was not a licensed FFL, the receiving FFL cannot send it back to the individual, and instead will make every attempt to communicate with the sender and inform him that he (the sender) will have to find a cooperating FFL dealer who is willing to recieve the returned gun, with all expenses paid by the individual who sent the gun...this last instance will occur if the person who initially purchased the gun does not show up (rare if that individual has already paid for the gun), or if the individual cannot legally possess and own a weapon per NICS background checks.

The bottom line is that if one wished to purchase a gun from an internet dealer or an individual from out of state, one needs to ask a local FFL if they would be gracious enough to accept the weapon and initiate the transfer process.

Communication is your most effective weapon, not the gun one wishes to own or does own.

Bubbles
December 7, 2012, 08:49 AM
The required information can be obtained from the return address label of the shipped firearm
We have had shipments come in where that's not enough. The name on the package is "D Smith" and the return address is either a PO Box or a UPS Store - and yes, I know they're not supposed to ship guns but occasionally one gets through.

When it comes to dealing with the ATF, the more paper covering your behind the better - hence the request for the copy of the DL.

As for the OP's situation, it sounds like he's dealing with a large operation and not everyone there knows the store policies.

Njal Thorgeirsson
December 7, 2012, 08:59 AM
The bottom line is that if one wished to purchase a gun from an internet dealer or an individual from out of state, one needs to ask a local FFL if they would be gracious enough to accept the weapon and initiate the transfer process.



I'd fully arranged the transfer with my FFL a day prior to shipment. I had the FFL send their info to the individual who was sending the gun.

I believe the problem was just miscommunication, as I certainly got severely conflicting information from the people I talked to.

bikemutt
December 7, 2012, 09:26 AM
Can you show us the requirement to see identification for the person from whom the FFL received the firearm?

I'm not suggesting there is a requirement, merely observing that it's customary based on my experience.

When considering buying online from a non-licensee I make sure to send them a copy of the receiving FFL's requirements. If the seller says they don't wish to comply, I move on.

dogtown tom
December 7, 2012, 10:36 AM
Bubbles Quote:
The required information can be obtained from the return address label of the shipped firearm
We have had shipments come in where that's not enough. The name on the package is "D Smith" and the return address is either a PO Box or a UPS Store - and yes, I know they're not supposed to ship guns but occasionally one gets through.
Four times in the last six months I've had to call the UPS Store shown on the return label to find out who actually shipped the package. Seller not only didn't include his info, but didn't include the buyers info either. I had a mystery gun.:banghead:

While NavyLCDR is correct that no law requires a copy of the drivers license, the law does require that the dealer record the sellers name and address. If NavyLCDR had ever been in the business of dealing firearms he would understand the folly of writing "UPS Store #23456" as the person the firearm was received from.......that is not compliant with the law. As all transfers of firearms from licensed dealers to a nonlicensee REQUIRE a government issued photo ID, nearly 100% of dealers will ask for the same from firearms received from a nonlicensee. Yeah, the law doesn't require it, but as a good business practice the dealer should require it.

NavyLCDR
December 7, 2012, 11:34 AM
I am not suggesting that any FFL record Joe from Kansas, or UPS Store #666 as the address. Really, do we have to go overboard with everything and not apply SOME common sense?!?

Like I said, you insist on a copy of my driver's license? Sure, no problem. And you will have inaccurate information because my state only requires that I inform them of my current address but does not issue replacement licenses for adress changes and someone else is living at the address on my driver's license and I am not.

If the return address label says Joe Schmoe, 123 Main St, Timbuktoo, IA and the FFL asks the buyer who did you buy the gun from and do you know what his adress is and the buyer says, "Yeah, Joe Schmoe from Timbuktoo, IA", then, if it were I, I would record the name and address in the bound book and just complete the dang transaction.

joed
December 7, 2012, 12:31 PM
Your FFL is being a JERK!!!!!!!!!! Go to home page of G-broker, enter your zip code, and find someone local. They are everywhere BUT your FFL's refusal will cost you another shipping charge. Make sure you pass the word on him.
Please pass the word about the jerk to everyone you can. They don't belong in the firearms business in my opinion.

NavyLCDR
December 7, 2012, 12:39 PM
I think a lot of problems with companies, and the military, is that it doesn't take very long for "We've always done it that way" to become "we have to do it this way." Actually, with police officers too, "I got a call about you carrying a gun so I have to see your ID and verify you are not prohibited." To me this is one reason, especially in cases like the OP, why we should emphasize what the requirements actually are so everybody learns.

Does it make it a lot easier for the FFL to have a copy of a driver's license included with the gun? Sure (whether or not the driver's license is valid, current or accurate is anybody's guess though.) But in a case like the OP's where the FFL sent his info to the seller, the package arrives with a realistic return address, and the buyer agrees with the seller's name and address; to me, that's a case of good enough and more than meets the legal requirements.

Frank Ettin
December 7, 2012, 01:35 PM
The bottom line is that there are (1) legal requirements; and (2) business requirements of the FFL beyond what is legally necessary. It's pointless to argue about whether the FFL's business requirements are good, make sense, reasonable, etc.; he is free to set his business requirements. If they aren't satisfactory to the parties, another FFL would need to be found.

What this situation illustrates is the importance of the parties to a private transfer understanding and documenting what the transfer FFL's terms and requirements are before money changes hands, and certainly before the gun is shipped. So it can help avoid unpleasant and difficult situations if the seller and buyer get the following information confirmed in writing from the transfer FFL:

Will the transfer FFL accept guns shipped for transfer from an non-licensee?


If so, what sort of seller identification or other seller information is needed?


What sort of information identifying the buyer does the FFL need the seller to include on/in the package?


Any thing else the transfer FFL wants or needs.
Some, or all, of the things the transfer FFL wants or needs might not be legally necessary. Some may not seem reasonable, and if so, one's option is to go elsewhere.

Sometimes it's less important what the requirements are than that everyone have a common understanding of the requirements and are agreeable to them.

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