So, did ARs kill the (non-AR) PCCs?


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Batty67
December 7, 2012, 03:56 PM
I recently acquired a Marlin Camp 45. It is a sweet gun to own, hold, and shoot (cleaning...not so much). I had a Ruger PC40 that I had to sell when I got laid-off, but I really enjoyed it. I have an AO M1 Carbine than if it were not so finicky about ammo, I'd really like. So I like pistol cartridge carbines. Sure, the M1 is a bit of a stretch.

I just do not "dig" ARs. I mean, I get it, and will likely get one someday, but not as a PCC. I personally think the AR market is over-saturated. Going to the Nation's gunshow in Chantilly VA (DC Mateo Area) seems like an AR love-fest. So, spotting an excellent condition Marlin Camp 45 for a good price was gold.

But the massive proliferation of ARs seems to have killed the great experiment in PCCs. Perhaps this is evolution and I'm a luddite when it comes to ARs.

I would so dearly love an M1 style carbine in 357 or 10mm. But I'm thinking that won't happen.

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Cosmoline
December 7, 2012, 04:27 PM
They seem to have killed the submachine gun for military and law enforcement as well.

PCC's still have some niches. Leverguns for example. And they have the advantage of being really cheap to load for with cast bullets. But overall they seem to have faded. That may be why hopes of a .32 Federal carbine don't seem to be materializing.

Skribs
December 7, 2012, 04:40 PM
Light-and-fast offers a lot of advantages, with very few drawbacks, compared with the slow slugs of pistol ammo, which apply both in short and long range (but moreso at long range). The velocity allows engineers to control the bullets better to control expansion for maximum trauma, reduce overpenetration, increase penetration for armor-piercing potential, or whatever else the bullet manufacturer wants the round to do.

If you compare a 9mm JHP round to a 5.56mm defensive round, for example, you'll find that through light barriers the 5.56 overpenetrates less (reduction in overpenetration), penetrate hard barriers better (good for shooting armored assailants or for some military/LE applications) and have a greater range.

The advantages of 9mm rounds are cheaper, lighter, and smaller cartridges (albeit not by much, especially in a magazine outside the pistol grip), as well as lower sound. The MP5SD, for example, does not require special ammunition to go subsonic. In addition, especially with semi-automatics, the 9mm can place the magazine in the pistol grip, but I personally do not like this style.

I don't think it's the AR specifically, but rather the intermediate rifle cartridge in general that are doing it to the PCC.

Sam1911
December 7, 2012, 05:10 PM
In a way, yes. As Cosmo says, the increasing refinement of the assault rifle into a more compact and capable design has really almost universally ended any role the pistol-caliber submachine gun had in military and law-enforcement.

For "civilian" purposes, most folks find the same costs and benefits to hold true.

The real heyday of the pistol caliber carbine -- the time when their benefits really shone above other designs -- was when the various Whnchester and Marlin lever rifles were the kings of quick shooting high-capacity. Since then, "PCCs" have sort of floundered around looking for a niche to fill. They do several things well -- and are WONDERFUL fun -- but they don't really do anything BETTER than other choices which usually offer significant advantages.

The PCC lever guns still have a lot of cool factor going for them, but they don't get the attention their rife-cartridge brethren get. The Ruger and Marlin autoloading carbines are always high on the "need to get one of those someday" lists, but never seem to make it to the TOP of those lists for enough people for the manufacturers to put them back in production. (And they tended to have little problems that were never quite worked out.)

So, if you really do like them, get one and enjoy it. They make decent HD weapons and great plinkers.

henschman
December 7, 2012, 05:21 PM
The Marlin and Ruger PCC's have been discontinued, but Kel Tec and Hi-Point are still going strong with theirs. Not to mention all the lever guns. I wouldn't say they have been killed off. Not too many people still use them as a fighting gun though, for the reasons mentioned.

Husker_Fan
December 7, 2012, 05:30 PM
Maybe I'm biased, but I don't lump the M1 carbine in with PCCs. The ballistics are pretty close to an intermediate cartridge, at least at ranges less than 150 yards or so.

Get a GI carbine and your reliability issues will likely go away.

USAF_Vet
December 7, 2012, 05:33 PM
I'd rather have a lever gun in a pistol cartridge over a rifle cartridge any day of the week.

Aside from HD, or a range toy, the semi auto PCC seems to have fallen by the way side. They are tons of fun, but they don't do anything something else can do equally well, or in most cases, better.

PCC's with a happy switch still make the rounds. The Turkish rural police (Jandarma) carried the MP5 as a standard fire arm. I saw some SF guys in the desert with full auto PCC's as well. But the AR does seem to have flooded them out of the market. Not too many new manufactured PCC's out there anymore, other than Hi Point. Too bad, since they are a blast.

Skribs
December 7, 2012, 05:38 PM
USAF, I think that even for HD the PCC isn't as popular as the AR, shotgun, OR pistol. Most that are are the leverguns, not the modern options, and its my opinion that most people opt for those leverguns out of nostalgia or preference instead of any real advantage.

The same for special forces/SWAT type units. Yeah the MP5 can be full auto, but so can a M4. I will say that for these guys, though, barring a newer cartridge like 6.8 SPC or 300 Blackout, the MP5 might have better ballistics and will have a much smaller report out of a short barrel, when compared to something like a 5.56mm.

wriggly
December 7, 2012, 05:52 PM
Justright Carbine is fun, takes Glock mags, and the two I got to play with were very reliable. I have spent too much this past year on guns, or I would probably snag one myself. PCC's appeal to my cheap side. :D

Batty67
December 7, 2012, 06:00 PM
Thanks for the input. As for the M1 carbine, I did mention it was a bit of a stretch. Mine is fine with ammo it likes. I got an AO second-hand because it came with loads of extras, had a great price, and I want to shoot it. Even mediocre military/vintage M1s are far too pricey in my opinion. I wish I bought a cherry one to collect, and a shooter to make tactical, back when they were affordable/reasonable.

Inazone
December 7, 2012, 06:13 PM
When the prices aren't inflated (Kel-Tec SUB2000s selling for well above MSRP, Beretta CX4 simply overpriced to begin with, etc.) the current PCCs offer a reasonably-priced option for people who already own handguns in a particular caliber and want to share ammo while getting some benefit from a carbine platform. As long as the expectation isn't to match rifle capabilities, $300-500 for a PCC isn't outlandish. I bought a Hi-Point 995TS after having already decided on 9mm for my SD/HD choice and not yet having anywhere I could shoot rifle calibers. Shooting a 9mm carbine at the indoor pistol range was fun, and it would have its place in a defensive role. No regrets on that purchase.

On the other hand, if a person doesn't already have a preferred caliber and handguns in that caliber, I don't see much practical reason for buying a PCC.

readyeddy
December 7, 2012, 06:24 PM
Maybe so, but if the industry would produce a 10mm carbine that would take Glock magazines, then we would have a potent 40 cal HD gun that would match up with the Glock 20.

USAF_Vet
December 7, 2012, 06:31 PM
USAF, I think that even for HD the PCC isn't as popular as the AR, shotgun, OR pistol. Most that are are the leverguns, not the modern options, and its my opinion that most people opt for those leverguns out of nostalgia or preference instead of any real advantage.

The same for special forces/SWAT type units. Yeah the MP5 can be full auto, but so can a M4. I will say that for these guys, though, barring a newer cartridge like 6.8 SPC or 300 Blackout, the MP5 might have better ballistics and will have a much smaller report out of a short barrel, when compared to something like a 5.56mm.
I wasn't trying to imply that a PCC was more popular than the AR, shotgun or pistol for HD. Sorry bout that.

I prefer my 12 gauge for HD and my 9mm for backup. I do hear a lot of people mention them as being popular HD options, but they are probably vastly outweighed by the 12 gauge pump.

dcarch
December 7, 2012, 07:41 PM
Definitely feel this way myself. I've always had nostalgia for a good carbine, but when the glass breaks at 3 AM, I'm gonna go for my rifle.

esheato
December 7, 2012, 08:23 PM
Where does the AR pattern carbine in say, 9mm, fit into the picture?

gotigers
December 7, 2012, 10:25 PM
If a well designed PCC that had a proper price point came out, i think it would be successfull.

There are a couple of nice PCC designs, but it is hard for them to compete, price wise, against ARs in the current market.

Warp
December 7, 2012, 11:05 PM
I just don't see what a pistol caliber carbine has to offer compared to an AR, from a practical standpoint.

Quentin
December 8, 2012, 12:54 AM
I just don't see what a pistol caliber carbine has to offer compared to an AR, from a practical standpoint.

I agree. Other than 9mm, most pistol caliber ammo costs as much or more than cheap .223.

76shuvlinoff
December 8, 2012, 09:31 AM
My .357 Marlin 1894c and Ruger Sp101 are for the wife if the dogs explode in the middle of the night. She does not like or practice with my bottom feeders and my 870 has too much recoil for her. My personal go to for bump in the night is the LE6920, Rem 870, and then my 1911 .45.

I think there are is a place for the lever action pcc here, and for plinking, and for close in varmint control, and for cool as hell.... but that's about it.

.02

jmr40
December 8, 2012, 09:39 AM
I think the lever actions in 357 and 44 mag have a place. From carbine length barrels they are legitimate hunting options and could be pressed into use for SD roles. There is no longer any real reason to choose a semi auto pistol caliber carbine in 9mm or 45 etc. when an AR carbine in 5.56/223 is available.

The AR carbines have all but killed off the shotgun for LE and military use for all the same reasons. That trend is starting to trickle down to civilian use as well, but price advantage shotguns have will keep them around for a while longer.

Sam1911
December 8, 2012, 09:40 AM
Where does the AR pattern carbine in say, 9mm, fit into the picture?Well, the original Colt 9mm SMG tested that out, and tried to provide some competition for the MP5 (and Uzis and such). Neat, in that the manual of arms is so familiar. But then you have a whole AR-15 rifle in your hands, but you've given up the capabilities of the 5.56 mm round for the 9mm. And then they've had a reputation of being slightly more problematic, on average, than their 5.56 big brothers.

They're still sometimes popular -- again in sort of a "niche" way -- with certain shooting competitors wanting a cheaper way to play some kinds of gun games. But since the rise of "3-gun" with a fair number of longer shots required, 5.56 has regained its dominance and the 9mm ARs have largely gone back into the "plinker" closet.

rjrivero
December 8, 2012, 09:51 AM
A 9mm PCC with a suppressor shooting 147gr Subsonics is about as much fun as you can have. I bust mine out at our monthly carbine shoots and just laugh when the bullets smacking steel are louder than the gun going off. Suppressed .223 are okay, but suppressed 9 is where the fun really is!!

Skribs
December 8, 2012, 12:39 PM
Can't remember the name of the company, but there is one company that makes a dedicated 9mm AR-style weapon that is designed completely for 9mm (instead of using the AR lower with those L-shaped magazines). That would shave about an inch on OAL.

One thing, too (although with new rifle calibers coming out that are designed for SBRs, this might be less of an advantage) I think PCCs would be more popular if NFA went away. Shooting a 5.56 out of a 10-inch barrel sacrifices a lot of lethality and gives you a much bigger blast, but a 9mm out of a 10-inch barrel is going to be better than a 9mm out of a 4 inch pistol.

dcarch
December 8, 2012, 04:41 PM
I believe you are referring to the "Just Right Carbine": http://www.justrightcarbines.com/

gp911
December 8, 2012, 04:46 PM
A PCC is still on my "someday" list. I like my AR and AK a lot, but I celebrate diversity in firearms.

Skribs
December 8, 2012, 04:50 PM
Might be it dcarch. Wish they had pictures instead of the video (or in addition to).

trickyasafox
December 8, 2012, 05:26 PM
I love ARs and PCCs- So I bought an Oly 9mm AR upper. Mine has been stone reliable and has been great fun to shoot. being in NYS, I only have access to pre-ban modded sten mags, and can't bring myself to cut one down. That being said, if I could find a 10 or 20 round modded sten mag, it would be my go-to rifle in a heart beat. Super low recoil, accurate, reliable, and adequately powered for most jobs, the PCC has a place for a lot of applications.

Skribs
December 8, 2012, 05:29 PM
Since we're on the subject, if I got a 9mm AR-15, what all parts would I need in order to convert it to a 5.56mm AR?

R.W.Dale
December 8, 2012, 05:56 PM
For me outside of scoped hunting there just isn't really much a pcc does that I can't to with the pistol itself. In a full sized handgun I can make and maintain surprisingly accurate fire out to 100yds beyond wich a real rifle comes into its own.

IMO the glock 17 did as much to kill the pcc as the ebr. Before wich an accurate handgun weighed as much as a 1911 or a service revolver

My carbine pistol combo is a TC encore and a s&w 386 in 357max/mag as purely a cost logistical exercise.






posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

dcarch
December 9, 2012, 11:15 PM
Hey Skribs, here's a Gunblast review of the JRC 9mm. http://www.gunblast.com/ATI-JRCarbine.htm
It does have some videos and more detailed pictures attached, if that helps!

Kurt_D
December 10, 2012, 12:49 AM
PCC is quieter than a 5.56 AR at equal barrel lengths and since pistol ammo is designed to work at lower velocities in short barrels, their effectiveness doesn't suffer like some 5.56 in SBRs (sub-14.5" barrels). Many PCC can use subsonic ammo and reduce the noise even more. Throw a suppressor in the mix and the PCC really shines.

They have a place: wanting to use light or no hearing protection, avoid disturbing the neighbors, slightly less expensive ammo, and up close pest control.

Rexster
December 10, 2012, 06:29 PM
On an industry-wide level, yes, the increasing acceptance and availability of the AR15 probably did largely kill off the PCC market.

On a personal level, I am not really fond of the AR, but my pair of Mini-14 rifles, plus the household Winchester '94, displaced my pair of Marlin 1894C lever rifles, and eliminated any practical need for a PCC. My wife and sister-in-law do like their Marlin and Rossi .357 lever rifles, but much as I like the .357 in my revolvers, shoving those little cartridges through a loading gate is neither fun nor efficent, and I would rather fire something longer-range through a rifle. .30-30 cartridges are much handier when loading a lever rifle through a loading gate.

Another factor at play in my personal situation is that I am subject to PD firearms rules 24/7, so off-the-clock SD/HD with a long gun is going to be accomplished with an 870P
shotgun, except under the most exigent circumstances. This would relegate a PCC to being a mere range toy, making it even harder to justify the price of the ones I find interesting.

I did own a PCC in the early 1980s, an Uzi Carbine, which was quite fun, indeed. Someday, I might try to own one again, for nostalgic reasons.

M1key
December 10, 2012, 06:46 PM
Wait. Did I hear someone mention 10mmmm? :cool:

M

mdauben
December 11, 2012, 11:41 AM
But the massive proliferation of ARs seems to have killed the great experiment in PCCs. Perhaps this is evolution and I'm a luddite when it comes to ARs.
The "assault rifle" in general certainly killed the submachine gun (pistol caliber, fully automatic) but I'm not sure it has really had that great an impact on civilian pistol-caliber carbines. Even before the explosion of AR popularity in the last few years, with the possible exception of lever action actions, the pistol caliber carbine never really seemed to catch on. Semiauto PCCs from Marlin and Ruger came and went, and even currently available PCCs from makers like Beretta and Kel-Tec seem to be nitch offerings without any real wide spread appeal.

Skribs
December 11, 2012, 11:50 AM
Mdauben, I think the reason theirs aren't met with much approval is because they are fairly unique. One thing I've learned is that if something is popular, it makes it more popular. This is because there's more support from trainers, gunsmiths, third party manufacturers, and reviewers. So if it is essentially an AR, there are a lot more people who know what to do to help you train with, fix, or upgrade the weapon. With a unique PCC, you're probably going to have to go only through the manufacturer.

mdauben
December 11, 2012, 12:38 PM
One thing I've learned is that if something is popular, it makes it more popular.
Its sort of a viscious circle, guns generally develop large aftermarket support becasuse they are popular (offering a larger market for the aftermarket parts), and when there's a large aftermarket it tends to make guns even more popular. I think the Ruger 10/22 is a great example of this aftermarket feeding on popularity feeding on aftermarket... round and round.

Skribs
December 11, 2012, 12:43 PM
Yep, and as part of that vicious circle, if something isn't popular, then it doesn't get more popular, because it isn't popular. There's one cartridge that I've heard "more manufacturers would make firearms chambered for it if it was more popular" and "more people would buy it if it was available from more manufacturers."

I've seen the effects of this in terms of:
Caliber Wars (get .223 instead of 6.8 because .223 is more common)
Glock vs. Other PFSF (Glock has a longer track record than M&P or XDm)
AR-15 vs. Other Rifle

And many more.

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