Another Bullpup Hi-cap on the Block?


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barnbwt
December 7, 2012, 05:26 PM
I saw on Gunbroker today that the UTS-15 14+1 round bullpup shotguns are available (sort of, I think they're still ramping up production, KT style). Has anyone had a chance to play with one of these yet? I'm still not totally sure about the need or purpose of a super-short super-hi-cap 12ga, but this offering at least looks more well-fed than the KSG, which appears emaciated by comparison. On GB, at least, it appears a good deal cheaper than the KT, at 1200$(:rolleyes:) as opposed to the 1400$ fools are asking for the KSGs.

From what I can tell, the reciever/frame is all reinforced composite, and it does the same dual-tube selectable magazine thing as the KSG, but from atop the barrel, as opposed to underneath. Don't know if that makes it easier to quickly load or not, though (haven't found any loading info). Flashlight integrated into the foregrip, for folks who like that sort of thing. The cheek piece tilts up like a car hood to access the innards. It's supposedly derived from the Neostad I've heard about once or twice before.

It looks like a fairly well put together offering, for doing whatever it's supposed to do (make noise? :D). Definitely one of the "meaner" looking shotguns I've seen recently :evil:. If they'd made it a semiauto somehow, I'd probably be more interested, though.

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/320423000/320423839/pix327927750.jpg

TCB

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BamAlmighty
December 9, 2012, 02:25 PM
Not for $1200...

PabloJ
December 9, 2012, 02:49 PM
I saw on Gunbroker today that the UTS-15 14+1 round bullpup shotguns are available (sort of, I think they're still ramping up production, KT style). Has anyone had a chance to play with one of these yet? I'm still not totally sure about the need or purpose of a super-short super-hi-cap 12ga, but this offering at least looks more well-fed than the KSG, which appears emaciated by comparison. On GB, at least, it appears a good deal cheaper than the KT, at 1200$(:rolleyes:) as opposed to the 1400$ fools are asking for the KSGs.

From what I can tell, the reciever/frame is all reinforced composite, and it does the same dual-tube selectable magazine thing as the KSG, but from atop the barrel, as opposed to underneath. Don't know if that makes it easier to quickly load or not, though (haven't found any loading info). Flashlight integrated into the foregrip, for folks who like that sort of thing. The cheek piece tilts up like a car hood to access the innards. It's supposedly derived from the Neostad I've heard about once or twice before.

It looks like a fairly well put together offering, for doing whatever it's supposed to do (make noise? :D). Definitely one of the "meaner" looking shotguns I've seen recently :evil:. If they'd made it a semiauto somehow, I'd probably be more interested, though.

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/320423000/320423839/pix327927750.jpg

TCB
:barf:It looks like one would need wheelbarrow to cart along that ugly thingy. I would much rather have one of those FN-made Auto-5s with extended mag tube/for-end wood for Rhodesian or South African police/military they imported about a decade ago.

Skribs
December 9, 2012, 02:59 PM
Personally I think this is superior to the similar Keltec for a couple of reasons. 1) Loading the magazine tubes seems to be easier while on the run. 2) the magazine tubes can auto-alternate, which means you have uninterrupted fire.

I still think that the shotgun community is trying in vain to do what rifles do better - high capacity. If you're at the point where you need 10+ rounds, a rifle with 30+ would probably suit you better.

sawdeanz
December 9, 2012, 03:08 PM
hickok45 has an in depth video on it. It is better than kt because it auto alternates between tubes (or doess all one tube then the next) but it is even more awkward to load for other reasons (u load each tube from its own side, and you have to first open a little dust cover. I guess they figure with 14 rounds you won't need to reload quick

barnbwt
December 10, 2012, 11:25 PM
1) Loading the magazine tubes seems to be easier while on the run.
I've often wondered why top-loaded pump-shotguns aren't more popular (they'd at least be easier for newbies to figure out without sweeping the barrel), especially after such promotion in Halo (;)) where the pump action was basically built upside down with the loading gate up top (Don't laugh, video games drive a lot of gun ideas these days...). But the Neostad requires you to flip up the back to load, like checking the oil in a mid-engine...no good

the shotgun community is trying in vain to do what rifles do better - high capacity
I feel you, I'm not sure what this gun does exactly (except that it appears to do it better than the KT :neener:). I blame the Saiga-12; the instant a hi-cap shotgun became "impractical" rather than "impossible," SHTF marketeers started getting ideas. A semi-auto equivalent of the Neostad would seem to be an even better "solution" to "whatever," though :)

I guess they figure with 14 rounds you won't need to reload quick
Meh, I suppose that's fair to say :P

FIVETWOSEVEN
December 10, 2012, 11:55 PM
It would look better if they didn't make it look so tall. I like the idea of a top loading shotgun. Something the size of an 870 with the magazine on top would be a welcome in my book. Maybe I could make a custom shotgun by flipping a lefty 870 upside down! :D

barnbwt
December 11, 2012, 01:17 AM
Maybe I could make a custom shotgun by flipping a lefty 870 upside down!
You mean putting a swivel where the butt meets the reciever? :D:D

That was my thought exactly, a stock that moves the "controls" around a bit, like those AK bullpup stocks. I think you'd run into problems with the trigger sticking in your eye, but maybe replacing that one part with something flush with the reciever would work instead (and Rube Goldberg'ed down to the shooters hand :D)

All stock conversions suck, and this would be no different, but a good deal cheaper than a new design, right? ;)

FWIW, that big tube under the barrel of the UTS-12 holds a (proprietary) flashlight; that I think is the "brilliant" point of the design

TCB

gunnutery
December 11, 2012, 01:54 AM
I want to like this UTAS gun. Well, I do like it, but there are some concerns I have.

The loading mechanics are such that you have to open the dust cover, THEN push the plunger forwards until it clicks, THEN load however many rounds you want, THEN push the button to charge the mags. In stressful situations you'd better be able to do that without thinking about it. I've yet to see a video of someone trying to top off the mags so perhaps I'm wrong here: Let's say you just shot off 6 rounds and wanted to top off to capacity, you push the most visible cartridge forward til you hear a click, are the rounds behind the load port just loose and getting in your way as you load the new rounds(I would tend to think so)? It almost seems overbuilt or over complicated, which almost makes me appreciate my 500 and 870 more for their simplicity even though they're lacking in the compact manuverability department.

I do like that it feeds continuously without having to manually flip a switch.

I've often wondered why top-loaded pump-shotguns aren't more popular (they'd at least be easier for newbies to figure out without sweeping the barrel), especially after such promotion in Halo () where the pump action was basically built upside down with the loading gate up top (Don't laugh, video games drive a lot of gun ideas these days...).

I agree with you, with the exception that I think Halo had much less exposure than most video games. When I still had friends that would play Halo with me (I got a little too good), I wondered the same thing about top loading shotguns. However, since my college aged days, I've met very few people that have played Halo. Since it was only on one gaming system, it didn't have enough pull for the Playstation only gamers to branch out and try it. Back then I don't think the gaming industry and the gun industry were as tied together as they are now, it was just the beginning.

Top loaded shotguns do make sense to me though, It's probably just one of those things that the consumers aren't demanding it and dealing with shotguns as they always have been. Thus industries don't bother. I can't speak for other militaries, but even though the U.S. military has had shotguns for a long time, I don't think the military is wanting/needing more innovation in the shotgun platform since the most action they currently see is for door breaching. LEO's seem to be abandoning the shotgun (or at least keeping it the last option) for rifles in record numbers.

fatcat4620
December 11, 2012, 11:51 PM
That thing is a monster! It's Why can't we just put another 20 round drum in our saiga12s and be done with it.

DNS
December 12, 2012, 01:14 AM
Good Lord that's ugly!

Looks like a sprayed black 2x8 with sights.

FIVETWOSEVEN
December 12, 2012, 07:59 PM
That was my thought exactly, a stock that moves the "controls" around a bit, like those AK bullpup stocks. I think you'd run into problems with the trigger sticking in your eye, but maybe replacing that one part with something flush with the reciever would work instead (and Rube Goldberg'ed down to the shooters hand

I would make a plate so it's flush where the trigger goes. It's an idea that I have no idea on how to make it work. I would have to get another 870 to start experimenting. :)

Skribs
December 13, 2012, 01:08 PM
I do have to say that if I were to go for a high cap shotgun, there are 5 options available: 1) Saiga, 2) Akdal, 3) Kel-Tec, 4) this, 5) some other one. I don't remember the name, but it's the semi-auto with rotary magazine tubes that you have to rotate every 4 shots. Out of all of those, I would probably go for this.

But, if I wanted high cap, I'd go for a rifle.

Hit_Factor
December 13, 2012, 01:14 PM
I have a UTS-15 and it is superior to the keltec ksg.

Low bore axis
Selectable magazines or alternate feed from both.
Choke tubes.
Integrated light/laser.

I have used it in couple 3 gun matches and have been pleased with its performance.

I have a Trijicon RMR on it for sighting.

It's lighweight and similar manual of arms to an AR.

armoredman
December 13, 2012, 01:51 PM
Last time I saw a gun that like that was in the movie Aliens...me want one. It would be an excellent home defense gun where you will typically have only what the mag holds, no matter if that is 4,6, or 15. The odd reload might not be that important in that situation. Short, maneuverable in tight spaces like hallways, and looks like something the Terminator would use. Never dismiss evil looks as a deterrent! ;)
Light built in, yeah, this could be interesting - hopefully the flashlight doesn't use odd foreign batteries.

the count
December 13, 2012, 07:43 PM
Some of you guys call this one ugly. I say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Just wait until this gun makes its debut (will happen for sure) in an action movie. Then everybody will want one because (...insert your favorite action hero here) looked soooo cool with it.

barnbwt
December 14, 2012, 12:46 AM
I have a UTS-15 and it is superior to the keltec ksg.


Sweet! So they do exist!:D I thought this might be like the thing a while back with the RFB where sellers were selling them before they had the rifles in stock (i.e. you bought into a waiting list:rolleyes:). With a red dot (arguably the best decision for a sight on a short shotgun like this), are you on target noticeably faster than a pump, O/U, semi, etc? How's the trigger/grip/stock ergonomics? How does loading work (few details out there on how fast/easily it can be topped off)?

Glad you like it; the KSG seemed like an interesting concept to me, but somewhat poorly executed (i.e. no alternating feed, which is an obvious necessary feature for a gun like this. What else would you need two tubes for? Holding different ammo? I'd just get confused :o)

Just wait until this gun makes its debut (will happen for sure) in an action movie. Then everybody will want one because (...insert your favorite action hero here) looked soooo cool with it.

I dunno...in the remake of Total Recall the Chiappa Rhino was featured prominently. Have their sales boomed? (that may have more to do with how terrible that flick was, though :D)

looks like something the Terminator would use. Never dismiss evil looks as a deterrent!

Nah, man:
http://www.americanrifleman.org/Webcontent/images/2012-10/201210281928-01_1887_t-model_ply1_m.jpg
Chiappa T-model 1887 lever action (T is for Terminator:D)

TCB

greenr18
December 14, 2012, 01:00 AM
It looks like something from one of those awful Halo videogames

Hit_Factor
December 14, 2012, 11:59 AM
With a red dot (arguably the best decision for a sight on a short shotgun like this), are you on target noticeably faster than a pump, O/U, semi, etc? How's the trigger/grip/stock ergonomics? How does loading work (few details out there on how fast/easily it can be topped off)?

I'm on target the same speed as my AR with red dot. It's a little shorter than the AR, but I typically run those short as well at matches and work. Never used an OU for anything other than trap and dove so there isn't a comparison I can give.

I spent two days adding grip tape to the forearm, so the details is probably overkill but I like the biting back it gives. I should have an extra forearm this week and will stipple it with an iron for a waterproof solution. Also the light/laser will arrive with that order, until then I don't know what kind of batteries it will take.

To top off, and flip open the cover, push the existing round forward until it catches on shell stop, and then load and push forward another round. So there is an extra step of pushing the existing round in the loading port to the shell stop.

During a competition I would probably just transition to a handgun and not bother with adding rounds. Leaving the easier shots to the handgun. I sling the UTS-15 the same way as an AR. I prefer 3 point because that is what we train with and use at work.

Trigger is not special in any way, off the top off my head I don't see a way to improve it but it's not a nagging issue either. Definitely isn't close to an open gun trigger or a good AR trigger. Pretty close to a standard 2 stage military AR trigger in feel.

Skribs
December 14, 2012, 12:48 PM
It looks like something from one of those awful Halo videogames

Glad someone agrees with me about Halo! I like the FPS genre, but Halo...

barnbwt
December 14, 2012, 08:42 PM
^^^Alright, I suppose you must prefer the double-barreled SMG in Half-Life, then? :neener: Or the pump action shotgun capable of firing both barrels :D

Never used an OU for anything other than trap and dove so there isn't a comparison I can give.

I forgot to ask if you'd used it for clays (somehow I doubted that, though)

To top off, and flip open the cover, push the existing round forward until it catches on shell stop, and then load and push forward another round. So there is an extra step of pushing the existing round in the loading port to the shell stop.

Is there any reason why another shell couldn't be used to push the first one (like any other shotgun tube mag)? Is the catch in the way, or something? I think that extra movement is what turns me off the most about its function. Glad to hear the trigger is at least average compared to modern tac-rifles--I was hoping the unique design didn't introduce a bunch of complexity that makes the trigger crummy.

TCB

FIVETWOSEVEN
December 15, 2012, 04:15 AM
Alright, I suppose you must prefer the double-barreled SMG in Half-Life, then?

That is a MP7 and that second barrel is a small grenade launcher.

Hit_Factor
December 15, 2012, 09:37 AM
I have broken all the clays thrown on a 3 gun course of fire with the uts-15.

I don't think you could use a new shell to push the one in the loading port, maybe once you start it forward. Once the first shell is past the stop, all the others will load like a more conventional shotgun, just on the top instead of the bottom. A sling can help you like a third hand during topping off.

wally
December 17, 2012, 03:05 PM
Not for $1200...

IMHO its a better buy at $1200 than the KSG for $1400 which is what I saw them sitting side by side for at last weeks gun show.

I'll stick with my converted Saiga 12 and a 20 round drum if I want lots of shots initially and PITA reload :)

SN13
December 17, 2012, 04:20 PM
I'll stick with my Saiga-12 with 10rd mags. I handled one of these at a gun show though and was SHOCKED at how light weight it was.... for $600? YES! for $1200? Naaaah.

barnbwt
January 19, 2013, 04:39 PM
I suppose I'll revive this one (briefly) since I got my hands on a UTS-12 in the LGS today! Considering how retarded prices have gone up on black plastic stuff (my 800$ Five-seveN was going for $4000 at the Mesquite Gun Show today--with takers :what:), I was suprised the "tactical, bullpup, black plastic, hi-cap" shotgun was listed at 1600$. KSG's at the gunshow (four of them--getting more common, finally) were over 2500$. Mossberg 500 cruisers were near 1000$ at several tables. Not a bad deal, considering...

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p630/barnbwt/2013-01-19_10-38-18_254.jpg
Quick & blurry shot I took at the entrance to the show--forgive the low quality, all I had on me today was my cellphone's camera :o

However, I have a new shotgun project of my own (top-loading shotgun built from an inverted M37), so I merely examined the gun, and took some photos with the store's permission. At first glance, the gun is huge. Ridiculously wide, moreso than an FS2000, and very tall. It certaintly has the KSG beat in the "intimidation" department. Looked more intimidating (and larger :confused:) than the SPAS12 I saw at the show--now that's sayin' somethin'! The exterior is all injection molded plastic, and fairly thin where it wasn't structurally important (namely, those slotted-side panels that cover the mag tubes and make the gun look all "Starship Troopers" and the feed chute cover in the back).
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p630/barnbwt/2013-01-19_10-01-26_779.jpg
Normally, I'd complain about how that made the gun feel cheap as hell (and those two pieces certaintly did), but the gun was just so light and handy (empty ;)) that I'll forgive it, especially considering the flimsy pieces don't affect function. The KSGs felt at least twice as heavy (I'm not a scale, so that's purely subjective). The Kel-tec had a "net density" of solid rubber, this gun more like an AR (i.e. plastic shell with some hard stuff inside). The KSG also had poorer ergonomics, for me at least; I had to lean my head over much farther to reach the comb and align the sights. The UTS is so tall, sighting is more comfortable (though with more parallax to be sure).

I couldn't play with the KSG at the gunshow (it was all tied up), but I was allowed to fiddle with the UTS for a good 15 minutes in the gun store. Two little doors on either side of the upper reciever swing down like wings (that look like they'd snag and break off easily if left open) to expose the loading gate. At that point, loading for each tube appears just like any other tube magazine; push in a round past the catch, rinse and repeat up to 7 times. A nice thought was a slot cut down the length of each tube for easily checking their contents. Once topped off, the door must be pushed closed to release the catch, and feed the shells from that tube. That the catch is not disengaged by the pump position is the one aspect I do not care for on the controls. The pump mechanism appears (though I'm no expert) to be similar to all other common designs, aside from the tube selector lever that blocks either tube if pushed to that side (and allows for alterating feed if left centered).

A shell carrier pivots up to guide a shell from the tube, pivots down to align it with the chamber, and the bolt pushes it into position. Ejection is out the right side near the rear of the stock (I the opposite side of the frame at the ejection port is obviously non-structural plastic; I have no idea why a second ejection port wasn't added to give the shotgun full ambidexterity). Trigger was meh, but who's paying attention ;). I forgot to play with the safety :o, but it's a two-position thumb lever/knob on the left side above the hand grip. There is a little rubber button on the right side of the frame, reachable by trigger finger, that cycles the flashlight settings (if attached). The top cover over the feed chute tilts up like a car's hood for accessing the carrier.
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p630/barnbwt/2013-01-19_10-01-45_509.jpg

TCB

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