M1 Carbine or Camp 45?


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Dr_2_B
December 7, 2012, 10:57 PM
This is just a passing thought I had tonight. An idle curiosity. Would you rather have an M1 Carbine or a [edited] Camp 45? I'm intentionally leaving the purpose somewhat vague, but I'm talking about real-life use rather than competition or something. I'm imagining home defense, ranch use, the like.

To make it equitable, let's say either could have 10 round or 15 round mags. And why would you choose the one you do?

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firesky101
December 7, 2012, 11:11 PM
Marlin camp 45 is what I think you meant to say. But I would take the M1 anyways. Still very effective at close range, but has a lot longer legs than the .45 cap.

Devonai
December 8, 2012, 12:12 AM
I can't imagine the Marlin would stand up to the same kind of abuse as an M1 Carbine. For occasional use, then the intended range is the only real issue. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it generally more difficult to find a Camp .45 these days than an M1?

chris in va
December 8, 2012, 12:19 AM
After watching an M1 carbine blast powder into a guy's face due to an out of battery firing, I cannot recommend one. Voted for the 45.

Devonai
December 8, 2012, 12:26 AM
With all due respect, that's a false dichotomy. Given one of each rifle, in perfect condition, a fair comparison can be made. One incident with one rifle does not a pattern make. I can certainly understand why such an incident would give you pause, but there are too many variables to categorically reject the M1 Carbine based on one injurious occurrence.

A legitimate discussion could be had on the relative merits of relying on a military surplus M1, considering the potential problems involved with 70+ year old parts that may have experienced hard use. For the purposes of this thread, however, the only fair comparison is that between new or like new rifles.

56hawk
December 8, 2012, 12:34 AM
While on the weak side, the 30 carbine is still a rifle round. The 45 ACP is a pistol round and gains little or nothing from the rifle length barrel. In fact with some ammo 45 ACP will actually be slower from the longer barrel. So, short of running a suppressor, I can't really see any situation where the Camp Carbine would be desirable over the M1.

rswartsell
December 8, 2012, 12:41 AM
The .30 carbine in a walk. Good luck with paying a reasonable price at this late date.

The .45 ACP is great in 1911's and disappoints as a carbine round.

The .30 carbine round disappoints as a rifle round, but your whole post says what is the better compromise and the answer is the .30 carbine.

rcmodel
December 8, 2012, 12:46 AM
While neither is still in production as such.

The M1 Carbine was a military issue weapon that worked reliably in at least three wars (WWII, Korea, and Vietnam) and innumerable "police actions" all over the world.

If a Camp carbine breaks, it is likely to stay broke for quite some time while you try to find parts to fix it.

If a M1 Carbine breaks, which is very unlikely after three wars of product testing?

You can get parts from any of several sources by the crate full, if you have enough money.


As for power?
It has way more power then a .357 Magnum revolver or .45 ACP pistol.
And it holds 30 rounds instead of just 6, or 7.

As for accuracy?
Go stand out there at 200 yards and state which one you would rather be shot at with?
I bet it won't be the M1 Carbine!

rc

MachIVshooter
December 8, 2012, 03:20 AM
The M1 Carbine was a military issue weapon that worked reliably in at least three wars (WWII, Korea, and Vietnam) and innumerable "police actions" all over the world.

The military rifle did. Commercially produced M1 carbines are another matter entirely. I have only seen a handful that were decent and would run reliably.

I'd take my Camp 45 over any commercial M1 carbine. Versus a FA M2, though? That math is easy.

Of course, I prefer an AR to both for any purpose.

mavracer
December 8, 2012, 07:14 AM
I sold my Camp Carbine because I got a M1 carbine.

jon86
December 8, 2012, 08:22 AM
I dont have any experience with any of these guns. However, if I found them each for a good price, and was considering them for the same roles, I'd take the M1 Carbine. I'll admit it, it has almost nothing to do with ballistics.

I think M1 carbines look cool.

And for their historical significance.

I keep thinking that an AR15 would do a better job though.

jimwill48
December 8, 2012, 10:04 AM
Have both :evil:

Furncliff
December 8, 2012, 12:07 PM
I like pistol caliber carbines, and currently own three. I would trade my Camp 9 and Hi Point .45 for a M1 Carbine.
I was looking to duplicate the M1 Carbines characteristics for something much less than the 650-800+ dollars they go for.
That was a mistake.

SHR970
December 8, 2012, 01:13 PM
M1 in a heart beat.

I have a Camp 9 and an M1.

The Camp carbine trigger guard is made of ABS plastic...more than one solvent will melt it. If you need to reassemble one you'll need four hands and five slave pins to get it back together.

The Camp is a 100 yard gun; the carbine 200+.

The Camp needs its recoil buffer; you'll want to get spares.

The Camp doesn't do +P or hot ammo...Buffalo Bore et. al. is out of the question. The M1 has a definite power advantage.

Camp 45's have been known to crack their stocks...the M1's are not as delicate.

The Camp 45 is a blowback gun...The M1 is gas operated.

SHR970
December 8, 2012, 01:21 PM
Chris in Va...do you know the gun that was the subject of your repeated in many posts insistence that the M1 is unsafe? Do you know what the then owner had done in regards to maintenance, modifications, etc? Do you know if the gun was inspected after the incident by a competent smith and what the determination was?

To the out of battery shot issue...I've seen a Garand and a Tupperware gun do that too. When a Garand fires out of battery it gets every ones attention.

Considering over 6 million M1s were made during WWII, they were shipped all over the world, used in three wars, used and abused by God knows whom, then they came back 40- 60+ years later, then tinkered with by God knows whom, I think that to pillory every M1 based on one incident is a very unfair broad brush to paint all M1's with.

Batty67
December 8, 2012, 03:02 PM
I have both. The M1 is an Auto Ordnance and has been made to be tacticool (to a limited extent). Very accurate, somewhat fussy with ammo. More than I'd like.

My Camp 45 is a recent addition and I love it. With the 21-pd spring and replaced recoil I can shoot +P rounds all day long. I even shoot Super 45 out of it. But sparingly. Once I'm out I'll stick with +P for HD. Very reliable, accurate, but runs filthy given its design.

RCArms.com
December 8, 2012, 03:31 PM
Having had both at one time, I still own 4 M1 carbines and the Marlin camp9 and camp 45 rifles have been sold off.

For every imaginable purposes, the M1 carbine is, IMHO, the clear winner.

Think of it as an auto-loading .357 Magnum and you begin to see the advantages.

Don

chieftain
December 8, 2012, 03:32 PM
I also own both. My M1 carbine was made in 1943 by national postal meter. Paid an arm and a leg for it, fifty bucks not quite 20 years ago.

Got the Marlin 45 about 12 years ago. The stock was beginning to split, so I put it in a high quality Chote folding stock.

Not surprisingly, the M1 is much more reliable with either 15 or 30 round "actual" GI magazines.

And, the M1's ballistics just blows the 45 out of the water. For serious social intercourse, I like Cor-Bon's DPX load.

The Marlin is fun, the M1 is more fun, reliable, and of course, history.

Good luck.

Fred

jerrard
December 8, 2012, 03:47 PM
I have had my G I carbine (Inland) since 1967. Have had only a hand full of stovepipes and
failure to feed up to now. I broke a M2 bolt at the extractor. I can't begin to estimate how many
thousands of rounds have been through it. It would not be near my first choice for
hunting or defense but I enjoy shooting it more than any other rifle I have ever shot.

stiab
December 8, 2012, 04:08 PM
The 45 ACP is a pistol round and gains little or nothing from the rifle length barrel. In fact with some ammo 45 ACP will actually be slower from the longer barrel.
That's incorrect, but a common misconception. I have owned two .45 Camp Carbines, and ran actual chonograph tests on many .45acp factory rounds in comparison with a 4" S&W Model 625 revolver. Athough I don't have the actual numbers with me now because I am traveling, the average gain was about 200 fps from the Camp Carbine. Winchester WB ran at over 1100 fps. That is a significant improvement.

56hawk
December 8, 2012, 05:00 PM
That's incorrect, but a common misconception.

I didn't say it was true for all guns and all ammo. If you look at the graph, there are several rounds that lose velocity with longer barrels. I have also seen magazine articles where lower velocities were measured out of carbine length barrels compared to a 1911.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/mepngs/45auto.png

stiab
December 8, 2012, 07:26 PM
I didn't say it was true for all guns and all ammo. If you look at the graph, there are several rounds that lose velocity with longer barrels.
The slower burning the powder the greater the increase, but of the dozen or more I tested they ALL increased by a significant portion. Your graph does not show velocity.

56hawk
December 8, 2012, 07:45 PM
The velocity graph would look the same. Here is the website it is from if you want to check: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

I don't doubt that you got lower velocities with a 625. A short 4" barrel and a cylinder gap are really going to hurt the velocity.

firesky101
December 8, 2012, 08:33 PM
56hawk is right if you are looking at the vast majority of .45acp that has been produced since its inception. 230gr standard pressure, there is a reason those M1928's had 10.5" barrels 12" if you count the compensator. They just did not get any gain after that, in fact they were losing velocity on an 18" barrel like the m1 carbine had. Lighter weight bullets do better in the longer barrels, and so do +P. So with modern ammo the .45acp can benefit from a carbine length barrel, but not much and only with the right ammo.

Blackrock
December 8, 2012, 09:24 PM
Don't leave out the Hi Point .45acp carbine as a choice either. I carry mine a lot onn my Polaris Ranger or Jeep CJ5. I did vote for the Marlin though.

Swampman
December 8, 2012, 09:26 PM
I voted M1 by a mile, but if you had a .45 carbine that was light, handy, reliable, took modern high cap magazines and was chambered for the .460 Rowland, you MIGHT change my mind...

After watching an M1 carbine blast powder into a guy's face due to an out of battery firing, I cannot recommend one. Voted for the 45.

I helped cut four mangled bodies out of a Volvo a few years back, does that prove that Volvo's are unsafe?
The most likely cause of an M1 Carbine firing out of battery would probably be a high primer or stuck firing pin, either one can happen in any semi or full auto weapon and either one can usually be prevented by proper maintenance and using quality ammunition.

A legitimate discussion could be had on the relative merits of relying on a military surplus M1, considering the potential problems involved with 70+ year old parts that may have experienced hard use. For the purposes of this thread, however, the only fair comparison is that between new or like new rifles.

Sooo... A brand new Kahr/Auto Ordinance M1 instead of a 1943 Inland in good condition and with a few springs changed out...who's side are you on here anyway? :)

bigfatdave
December 9, 2012, 12:53 AM
I'd probably take the M1 carbine, they're about an ideal rifle for me by design

But I always wanted a Camp Carbine to play around with, I wouldn't turn one down.

DurangoKid
December 9, 2012, 02:07 AM
I have a WWII Veteran M1 Carb. Quality Hardware. I shoot cast bullet loads in the little rifle most of the time. There are a number of M1 Carb. shooters at our gun club. They are shooting modern Repos of the M1 Carb. The WWII rifles are much better regardless of there age. I have never in 50 years of using an M1 ever seen one blow out in any ones face. I would choose the M1 Carb over most other Semi Auto light rifles.

stiab
December 9, 2012, 09:10 AM
I don't doubt that you got lower velocities with a 625. A short 4" barrel and a cylinder gap are really going to hurt the velocity.
Hurt it compared to what? The 4 inch barrel is the same effective length as a full size 1911 whose 5" barrrel includes the chamber. The 625 results were not low, they were what you would expect from manufacturers published tables. When I return home in a couple days, I'll post the auctual increases gained from the Marlin carbine, and you can see the significant improvements accomplished.

kBob
December 9, 2012, 02:09 PM
I would love to have a marlin Camp 45.

But

If I had neither and had to choose between the two I would pick the .30 M1 Carbine US GI over the Marlin.

I did pass up a steal about a year ago on a Carbine because even though it was a steal it was a commercial gun. I have seen and used Commercial M-1s that ran fine but others that ran fine for a few rounds.... sometimes.....maybe with the magazine it came with.

I voted M1 Carbine of the two.

-kBob

Doc Savage
December 9, 2012, 09:19 PM
While a 30 carbine is one of my favorite rifles, loved my brothers. I voted for the 45. 30 carbine ammo is next to impossible to find readily around here (and I don't order ammo), gun without ammo is useless. 45 I can readily find at walmart and other places. I have an HP 9mm carbine to go with my S&W 6909 pistol and considering my next purchase being an HP 45 carbine to go with my S&W 4563. Like to have a carbine that shares ammo with my pistols.

Robert

rondog
December 9, 2012, 09:53 PM
Can't put a toadstabber on a Camp 45, or a stock pouch with two extra mags, probably no sling either. And there's no way one could look this good on a wall either.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/my%20M1%20carbines/wallcropped.jpg

Oh, and the "firing out of battery" is a common problem with later models of Universal brand carbines. Those were aftermarkets, and the early ones were mostly USGI parts. But later vintage models were built with parts that Universal made, and those have a reputation as unreliable and dangerous. Not all aftermarket M1 Carbines were bad though, I have a Plainfield that will shoot circles around both my USGI Carbines.

Jeff B.
December 9, 2012, 09:59 PM
M1 as well. I've got one (Saginaw) that's a great shooter. I've not fired a Camp Carbine, so I'm simply basing my preference on what I know. The point that was made about finding .45 ammo vs .30 Cal Carbine is pretty good.

I wish I had bought at least one more M1 Carbine when the CMP still had them.

Jeff B.

kBob
December 10, 2012, 06:59 AM
Part of my reasoning was based on a little Marlin shooting and a lot of Carbine shooting as well, but was in a hurry and did not explain. I felt the Marlin Camp45 had greater felt recoil and more "jump" than an M-1 as well.

I live in Florida and many folks at least in my youth successfully hunted and shot our small white tail deer with the carbine. Not at all sure a .45 ACP launched from anything would be as successfull. I understand there is basically no gain in velocity for factory ammunition in the Camp45 over full sized 1911 handguns and do not see many folks hunting with those.

Also I like the GI carbine's sights much more than the "issue" Camp 45 sights.

It has been a while but I seem to recall that a M-1 Carbine with a 15 round loaded magazine weighs less than a Camp 45 with an eight round .45 mag in place.

I did and do like the idea of a "rifle" that can take my 1911 mags and my reloads, but as a nice to have sort of thing mainly for plinking with.

The not ordering ammo by mail thing does make the M-1 a bit harder to feed if one does not reload themselves. I believe CMP is carrying PMC ammo on occassion and a can or two of that will last one a while. I have not seen enough feed back on the steel case stuff from Russia in USGI carbines but it is out there or has been. Auguilla makes ammo for it again available in bulk by mail. There is a section on CMP's site o reloading and an assessment of some commercial ammo.

As for self defense...in a handgun I love .45ACP.....but I have seen Dr. Fackler's presentation showing the effects of a .30 carbine hunting round on a human and if I had to use a stocked rifle in self defense and the choices where any .45 ACP rifle and a M-1 Carbine the carbine wins hands down. It also helps in my choice that atleast for the couple of years I met with Dr. Fackler regularlly that his household defensive gun was an M-1 Carbine.

One might also check Marshall and Sanows work regaurding one shot stop data for even the best .45ACP from a handgun verses even plain Jaine FMJ .30 carbine from an M-1. I beleive you will find the M-1 Carbine wins and is the Marlin does not add something significant to the .45ACP bullets speed .......

I think I got it all now.

-kBob

bigfatdave
December 10, 2012, 10:18 AM
I wish I had bought at least one more M1 Carbine when the CMP still had them.
Me too. If I had just KNOWN that they were a rarity I would have bought however many I could have, and then sent the Mrs in to buy a load as well.

30 carbine ammo is next to impossible to find readily around here I find it retail and I can walk into the CMP and buy a case. Last time they had Lake City for the same price as Aguila, so I bought the last case of LC and a case of the Aguila while I was at it, on sale during the national matches.
It isn't that hard to find, although the "I don't order ammo" bit might make finding anything interesting harder. There's more to shooting than what you can buy at WalMart or the big-box "sporting goods" shop.

Eaglestroker
December 10, 2012, 10:43 AM
I am relatively new to the 30 carbine, but I would take that rifle over the Camp 45's I've handled. I order the Aguila ammo from CMP for $208/500 shipped. If I could just find a 30 carbine Blackhawk....:)

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae95/Ssthis07GT/E926FCFC-B3FF-44FD-BD3D-9EE9DDDC8111-2689-00000266224F859F.jpg

Swampman
December 10, 2012, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by rondog
I have a Plainfield that will shoot circles around both my USGI Carbines.

My Plainfield would outshoot any military M1 Carbine that I've ever fired...

Until I put a telescoping wire stock on it... :banghead:

Axel Larson
December 11, 2012, 10:43 AM
The carbine has a better cartridge for all around use.

mdauben
December 11, 2012, 11:00 AM
I've only seen a Camp .45 in real life once. The example I saw would jam at least once per magazine. I'm not sure how representative this is of the gun in general, but I'd be hesitant to trust it for any serious useage without more positive experience.

stiab
December 11, 2012, 04:32 PM
I'm back home now and have the ammo test results from shooting .45acp in a Camp Carbine, and no longer have to rely upon my sometimes faulty memory. There were a total of 10 loads tested, 9 were factory and 1 was reloaded. Of those, 3 different loads averaged above 1100 fps, and 2 others averaged above 1000 fps. I think most posters would agree that is pretty fast for a .45acp.

The largest increase in velocity from the carbine over the handgun was 251 fps, and the least increase was 74 fps. The actual results for each load are set out below. The first number in brackets is the average from the S&W 4 inch barrel Model 625, the second number is the average from the Camp Carbine, and the third number is the amount of increase.

Rem 230 HP [836][914][+78]
Rem 230 FMJ [798][872][+74]
PMC 230 FMJ [872]951][+79]
MagTech 230 FMJ [856][1022][+166]
Win 185 ST [918][1139][+221]
Fed 230 FMJ [834][956][+122]
Win 230 "Clean" [845][1061][+216]
RP 200 Trunk [960][1154][+194]
Win 230 FMJ [821][960][+139]
Reload 6.8 Unique 225 grain solid lead [892][1143][+251]

I think these test results show two things. First, the 625 velocities were what would be expected for a full size .45acp handgun, and secondly that significant increases in velocity can be achieved in a .45acp carbine over the handgun. I am not recommending the Camp Carbine over the M1, just pointing out the improved performance from the carbine.

Dr_2_B
December 11, 2012, 07:30 PM
Interesting numbers Stiab. Thanks for posting

rswartsell
December 12, 2012, 01:00 AM
What a lot of divergant crap. Several posts about how to make the .45 ACP a carbine round? Seriously?

I'm a very BIG fan of .45 ACP for 1911's!

As a carbine round? You lose! The .30 Carbine in ANY barrel over 5" is FAR superior. Then you get into comparing to a .357 in a lever carbine. Well thats outside of the OP's dimensions, ain't it?

Swampman
December 12, 2012, 04:16 AM
What a lot of divergant crap.

Really?
When there have been numerous posts saying that no velocity increase from the longer barrel could be expected (which is pretty much what I've always believed).
I learned something from the data in that post.

A decided contrast to yours, which merely stated opinion, and not particularly well.

Do you honestly believe that a .30 carbine with a 5.1 inch barrel would be superior as a defensive weapon to a 5 inch barrel .45 acp? Because that's pretty much what you said.

You can go buy a CZ-52.

I'm going to run some chrono tests for myself.

bannockburn
December 12, 2012, 06:02 AM
Between the two, I would go with an M1 Carbine over a Marlin Camp Carbine. It's a proven design that has performed very well in diverse conditions throughout the world for any number of years. The only thing I would prefer would be to have an M1A1 Carbine instead of the fixed stock version.

bannockburn
December 12, 2012, 06:17 AM
Delete-Double post

krupparms
December 13, 2012, 03:22 PM
I have owned both. I would pick the M1 carbine. More rounds &better combat carbine! With the right loads it's great for plinking if you reload. It was the first gun I reloaded for &I learned alot from it. :)

rswartsell
December 13, 2012, 07:21 PM
Swampman, what I am getting at is simply this. For carbine applications the .30 Carbine is obviously superior. Sorry that was lost on you. If you disagree, knock yourself out on .45 acp carbines. I don't care. Just don't expect to sell me on any proposition that you are getting better or even equal performance.

If it's important to you to "win" a rhetorical argument, you can have that too. Just give me the .30 carbine.

For handgun applications, I will reverse field and go the other way. In a handgun the .30 Carbine doesn't earn (justify) all the downside.

jeepnik
December 13, 2012, 10:31 PM
Which is better, probably not enough difference to matter.

However, from a strictly gut level, I'd have to say the Camp 45. My reason is simply my Dad.

An armored troop in Europe he employed both the M1 carbine and Thompson. He cussed the carbine and praised the Thompson. From someone who employed them for their intended use, you can't get a better opinion.

Now I grant you that the ball ammo used in both isn't the most spectacular in performance, and you likely could get better effect with today's hollow point .30 carbine ammo. Still, you will also get a good improvement in effectiveness from today's .45 ammo.

One thing he did say was that the Thompson was a lot heavier, but since he rode most of the time, it didn't matter.

I haven't looked at weight specs on both the M1 and the Camp 45, but I'd guess they are much closer than the M1 and the Thompson.

Tommygunn
December 13, 2012, 11:10 PM
I suspect if the Camp 45 were able to fire 800 RPM of 45ACP it too would be as "effective" as a full auto Thompson.
The .30 carbine round is flatter shooting and the carbine has better range.
The M-2 was a full auto variant.
The Thompson is a submachine gun.
The carbine would be a PDW by today's standards.
The Thompson was great in streetfighting, as was the carbine to a degree.
But if you really really needed to reach out and touch someone you needed the M1 Garand.

J_McLeod
December 14, 2012, 05:15 PM
I would get the M1 for the longer range.

ghitch75
December 14, 2012, 05:24 PM
if you have a 1911 get a Mech-Tech carbine......oh i have a camp 45 too

http://i51.tinypic.com/153nuc2.jpg

SharpsDressedMan
December 14, 2012, 05:28 PM
Routine accuracy from the two leaves the carbine about twice as accurate as the Marlin at 50 or 100 yards, and it is only downhill for the Marlin beyond that range. I've owned, shot, and handloaded for both, and just could not get the Marlin to group as well beyond 40-50 yards.

ghitch75
December 14, 2012, 05:34 PM
and just could not get the Marlin to group as well beyond 40-50 yards

you must have got a bad or i got a good one.....my 850fps 230gr LRN would hold 2" at 100y....Mech-Tech just a little better...

Robbins290
December 14, 2012, 05:40 PM
i choose camp 45. for simply more common ammo to gather and scavenge

Swampman
December 16, 2012, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by rswartsell:
What a lot of divergant crap. Several posts about how to make the .45 ACP a carbine round? Seriously?

Why is it "divergent crap" to talk about the .45 acp as a carbine round when the original post was about the .30 US Carbine and a .45 acp......carbine?

Originally posted by rswartsell:
I'm a very BIG fan of .45 ACP for 1911's

And speaking of divergent crap...


Originally posted by rswartsell:
As a carbine round? You lose! The .30 Carbine in ANY barrel over 5" is FAR superior.


When you specifically state " The .30 Carbine in ANY barrel over 5" is FAR superior." don't be surprised when people naturally assume that is what you think and that you'd rather use a six inch Ruger Blackhawk than a .45 acp 1911, because THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID! It shoots .30 Carbine, it has a barrel and that barrel is over five inches long. According to what YOU wrote it "is FAR superior" to a .45 acp.


Originally posted by rswartsell:
Then you get into comparing to a .357 in a lever carbine. Well thats outside of the OP's dimensions, ain't it?

I re-read the thread, YOURS was the ONLY reference to a .357 carbine up to that point. There had been two posts prior to that mentioning the .357, one by rcmodel and one by RCArms.com, BOTH of them praised the M1 Carbine and used the .357 only as a standard for comparison.

Would anyone care for another helping of pure, steaming and unadulterated "divergent crap"?


Originally posted by rswartsell:
Swampman, what I am getting at is simply this. For carbine applications the .30 Carbine is obviously superior. Sorry that was lost on you. If you disagree, knock yourself out on .45 acp carbines. I don't care. Just don't expect to sell me on any proposition that you are getting better or even equal performance.

If you wanted to say that the .30 Carbine was a superior carbine round why didn't you do so and leave it at that? At least say something relevant or meaningful to the thread, heck, for a change of pace you could even try saying something intelligent.

Speaking of the .30 Carbine rounds superiority to the .45 acp in any barrel over five inches, and then acting like I'm dense because I don't understand what you MEANT to say is a crock.
T-H-I-S * I-S * P-R-I-N-T, don't accuse me of being unable to read or comprehend just because you didn't express yourself clearly.


Originally posted by rswartsell:
If it's important to you to "win" a rhetorical argument, you can have that too. Just give me the .30 carbine.

Yeah...about that...

Originally posted by Swampman:
I voted M1 by a mile

If you'd actually read what I wrote, rather than assuming that anyone who disagrees with your poorly written, nonsensical and insulting posts is "against" the .30 Carbine, I wouldn't even be writing this.

Heck, if you'd just read YOUR OWN posts before hitting "Submit Reply", I wouldn't be writing this!


Originally posted by rswartsell:
For handgun applications, I will reverse field and go the other way. In a handgun the .30 Carbine doesn't earn (justify) all the downside.


You're in politics, aren't you?

Dr_2_B
December 16, 2012, 06:12 AM
rswartsell & swampman,

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. May I invite you to continue your discussions with one-another through private message (PM)?

mavracer
December 16, 2012, 08:28 AM
I'd like to voice my thoughts to clear up a little about 45 velocity from longer barrels most 45 loadings are going to reach full velocity in ~10" barrel, some will drop as they get to 16" so while saying that velocity drops off going to a 16" barrel is true, it's missleading as velocity from a 16" barrel will almost always be higher than out of a 5".

IMHO without the caliber contraversy the M1 is a far better suited SD weapon. the double stack mag design and reliability give it a huge edge.
My Camp Carbine wouldn't run dirty.

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