"selling" reloads


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Reefinmike
December 8, 2012, 01:08 AM
During range conversation with people curious about reloading(people who ive secured brass from :rolleyes: ), many have asked if I sell my reloads. I always tell them no, but id be happy to help them get started. Everyone ends it at that, they obviously arent really interested in reloading, just cheap ammo.

Recently, a good buddy who is a glock lover :uhoh: bought some kind of 45 and he has a 1911 on its way to his ffl. He knows im planning on a 1911 here in the next month or so and asked me about selling him reloads. In the past ive given him a couple boxes of 38 for picking me up things while he was at aimsurplus but is it legal to actually sell reloads on a small scale person to person transaction? If it matters any, these would be light cast lead loads and of course Id work up the loads out of my own gun and have some sort of legal doc written up beforehand.

Id assume its against the law to set up a booth at the gun show or advertise reloads on craigslist, but is it legal to sell to a friend or family member?

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rcmodel
December 8, 2012, 01:15 AM
In simple terms.
If you try to make a profit doing it, it is against federal law.

And even if you try, you can't possibly sell enough reloads to afford to buy the federal license and liability insurance even a fool would have to have.

So you just give them away to your friends, right!

If one of your "friends" blows his gun up, or shoots somebody with one of your "free" reloads?

You can bet an ambulance chasing lawyer will be whispering Sweet Nothings in his ear before the little band-aid comes off the tiny little scratch.

In short, don't.

If your friend wants less expensive reloaded ammo.
Teach him how to reload, using your equipment.

Then let him buy his own reloading equipment.

rc

horsemen61
December 8, 2012, 01:29 AM
yeah I asked about this one when I got started its a no go dude better safe than sorry rc is right.

Reefinmike
December 8, 2012, 01:35 AM
Ive told him plenty of times that if he buys the dies, powder primers and bullets, he is more than welcome than to use my press. ive even showed him he can get loading for under $200 and he has refused. he doesnt trust himself. Ive showed him how to reload, ive had him make his own 38's before we went to the range and shot them and for whatever reason he doesnt trust himself. I guess i'll just have to tell him to do his own reloading. legal to sell cast bullets to him, right?

ArchAngelCD
December 8, 2012, 01:41 AM
During range conversation with people curious about reloading(people who ive secured brass from ), many have asked if I sell my reloads. I always tell them no, but id be happy to help them get started. Everyone ends it at that, they obviously aren't really interested in reloading, just cheap ammo.
You spent the money on reloading equipment.
You spent the time learning how to reload.
You spend the time to reload ammo.
So, why do you feel sorry for your "friends" who don't want to do any of that but will take advantage of your efforts? Just remember, they are very good friends up to the point something goes wrong then their lawyer will leave you with nothing and bankrupt by the time they get done throwing you under the bus...

If they want cheap ammo let them reload it just like you do and if they choose not to, that's their problem. I sleep very well at night with no guilt and with a lot of my ammo on my shelves...

Coldfinger
December 8, 2012, 02:19 AM
Yep per, your responsibility doesn't end with the transfer of ammo from yourself to your friend. If he happens to be at a range and allows another shooter to fire your ammo, if he gives some of your ammo to another person, resells your ammo.... there are to many variables. You are ultimately responsible for the projectile up to the point of impact. As a reloader myself I taught my own brother to reload rather than give even him my reloads. It just isn't worth the risk.
My thought is this, never sell my reloads, never allow another to fire my reloads (unless I first fire them from their gun), never give my reloads away (not even to family). Better safe than....

rcmodel
December 8, 2012, 02:27 AM
legal to sell cast bullets to him, right? You can sell all the cast bullets you want.

You just have to pay sales tax to stay on the up & up with the state!
And income tax to the feds to stay on the up & up with them..

No, seriously, selling a few hundred cast bullets once and a while is no big deal.

Except for the EPA regulations, and all those lead fumes drifting over to the neighbors and making all their kids web-footed and crazy eyed.

NO, that there just wasn't a right thing to say! :o



Yes, you can sell cast bullets to your friend.

rc

Magnum Shooter
December 8, 2012, 02:52 AM
Actually manufacturing cast bullets for sale requires proper federal license. I don’t think they would press the issue, for just a few hundred to a buddy, but they could.

Ehtereon11B
December 8, 2012, 03:04 AM
While on the same thought, is it against the law for a range/gun store to collect range brass from customers, reload it and sell it as the "only" ammo that can be used there? Or is it more of a "their property their rules" situation.

rcmodel
December 8, 2012, 03:33 AM
Or is it more of a "their property their rules" situationIt is unless they are reloading and selling ammo without a manufactures license from the ATF.

If they don't have a manufactures license, they are breaking Federal law.

Q: Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]


rc

just for fun
December 8, 2012, 09:13 AM
[QUOTE=Reefinmike;8555432]During range conversation with people curious about reloading, many have asked if I sell my reloads. I always tell them no, but id be happy to help them get started. Everyone ends it at that, they obviously arent really interested in reloading, just cheap ammo.
[QUOTE] Must be a reloaders plight! Over the yrs. I have come up with a pat answer that seems to work very well. "It's agianst federal law to sell,swap,trade,or barter ammo, but I would be honored to teach you how." Oddly, their response is the same as what you have encountered! :D

45lcshooter
December 8, 2012, 09:17 AM
Ive giving some friends 38spl reloads so they could shoot their new revolvers. They asked me if i could make them up somemore for them and they would pay me for materials, i told them, buy me a few adult beverages and ill give you couple boxes. They did and every one was happy.

Ive also had a couple friends ask for reloads for rifles, i said i need the rifle to work up accuracy loads, they were fine with it, they bought me the brass and bullets(caliber i didn't reload) but had dies from an estate sale. They wanted to be there for shooting, fine with me. They liked what they saw, had me load the rest of the brass and gave me cash for my time.

I wont make reloads up for anyone. I live my life on the line everyday(firefighter) my buddies are also firefighters, they know everything can change in an instant, they have much respect for me to use quality components so they stay safe shooting.

jwrowland77
December 8, 2012, 09:27 AM
I had a buddy that once he found out I reloaded, tried to get me to make a bunch of reloads for him. I told him that I would be more than happy to show him, he said that would be cool...but has yet to come over so I can show him, that was 6 months ago.

Only people I reload for is myself and my parents, and probably my brother if he asked.

orionengnr
December 8, 2012, 10:04 AM
If he doesn't want to make the jump, maybe you could let him watch you for a while, then let him build 50 of his own.

Make sure to keep your finished rounds and his separate.

I have a friend who was getting into shooting about three years ago. I was starting to become a bit more confident and proficient by that time (and the wife had just bought me a Dillon 550). He and I had been shooting on several occasions. I always picked up brass, he helped me gather cases.

He came over while I was sorting and tumbling brass one day.
I asked him if he'd like to try handloading some time. He watched me one time, and the next time I let him build 50 or so, using my components.

After he shot his own loads, things moved along quickly. I saw a used Dillon 550 at the gun show for a good price and bought it. had to spend a few bucks replacing missing parts, added a Strong Mount and a Roller Press handle (just like mine).

I sold it to him for what I had in in, and the rest is history. A week ago I received our first order from Powder Valley--11K primers, 7 lbs of powder.

:)

beatledog7
December 8, 2012, 11:33 AM
My brother has been considering starting to reload. He has done some reading and video watching, but he wanted to get a little hands on feel for it. This past summer I sat and showed him how to size, prep, and prime the brass, select a powder charge, and assemble a few .45ACP and 30-30 rounds on my equipment. He did the bulk of the loading under my supervision. The next day we took them to the range and shot a sampling of them. It was pretty cool watching him grin at the target and then at me as the rounds he built himself fired, didn't blow up his guns, and found their mark.

He still has (or has shot) a couple dozen .45s and a handful of 30-30s. He has not yet made the leap into purchasing equipment loading his own, but now that he has done it hands on, I'm pretty sure someday he will. I'm not concerned about the rounds or the likelihood my brother will sue me. But there is no way I would build loads for anyone else, even as gifts. There are just too many ways to get into trouble.

gamestalker
December 8, 2012, 11:54 AM
I read in the federal laws relating to this, and it clearly stated "for profit" is not legal. However, I contacted an expert / attorney in firearm laws for our state, also a friend of mine of many years, and he said it doesn't matter if it's for profit or not, it's legal as long as you aren't conducting it as a business entity, thus violating FFL laws. In short he said that you can sell your relaods all day long to anyone, and for what ever price you like, as long as you are not advertising, or approaching it as a business.

As for civil risks, well thats a pretty obvious issue. Even a good shooting buddy isn't likely to take it with a grain of salt after he has lost some fingers, eye sight, or what ever. Even if it wasn't the reloads that caused his catrostrophic failure it becomes an expensive and one very difficult defense to win.

I do sell to close friends, but that's a risk I'm personally willing to take.

GS

brickeyee
December 8, 2012, 04:50 PM
In short he said that you can sell your relaods all day long to anyone, and for what ever price you like, as long as you are not advertising, or approaching it as a business.


The attorney is simply WRONG.
Reloading (manufacturing ammunition) requires a license, EXCEPT for your own personal use of the reloaded ammunition.

The tax man wants a cut also if you sell them.

W.E.G.
December 8, 2012, 05:04 PM
I tell my "friends" that I would be DELIGHTED to reload ammunition for them.

I love reloading.

All they have to do is come to my house and wait while I work for them....

Provided that they will work for me while I'm reloading their ammo.

There are toilets that need scrubbing, and paint that needs scraping, and rugs that need vacuuming.
I'll "work" all day for them on those terms.

Now, I do kind of hate trimming brass.
So, if they don't like cleaning toilets, I'll let them trim brass for as long as their fingers can stand it.
Then back to plungin' for those deadbeats.

TheCracker
December 8, 2012, 05:26 PM
You spent the money on reloading equipment.
You spent the time learning how to reload.
You spend the time to reload ammo.
So, why do you feel sorry for your "friends" who don't want to do any of that but will take advantage of your efforts? Just remember, they are very good friends up to the point something goes wrong then their lawyer will leave you with nothing and bankrupt by the time they get done throwing you under the bus...

If they want cheap ammo let them reload it just like you do and if they choose not to, that's their problem. I sleep very well at night with no guilt and with a lot of my ammo on my shelves...

This is excellent advise. My brother is the only person I've loaded for. But most each time I made him be there to help me. He finally got his own press last spring. It's really better that way.

Double_J
December 8, 2012, 05:34 PM
I only reload for 2 people. Those people are my brother (.44 Mag. ammo is DANG expensive) and my reloading buddy/best friend who got me into reloading. Those are the only people who I trust to shoot my ammo, and I trust my reloading buddy's ammo to shoot in my guns.

My buddy and I talked about reloading for a profit one night over a couple of steaks and a six pack of beer. When we looked into what we would need to do it ad make a profit, we canceled that idea. The volume we would need to break even is UNREAL. FFL, ITAR, Business Lic., INSURANCE, ATTORNEY RETAINER, Corporation fees (there is NO WAY I would own a business as a sole proprietor on something like this), and equipment cost were all in excess of what we could do in our spare time.

Like many others I will show someone how to reload, and let them use my setup until they can get started. I will not do it for them, the risk is too high as has been stated above.

45lcshooter
December 8, 2012, 06:04 PM
What big brother doesnt know, wont hurt. If PD would watch "moonshiners" then they would know where to find the stills.

jcwit
December 8, 2012, 06:21 PM
What big brother doesnt know, wont hurt. If PD would watch "moonshiners" then they would know where to find the stills.

So you're implying to go ahead and break the laws as long as you don't get caught!

Thats a High Road attitude!

Rottweiler
December 8, 2012, 06:32 PM
Float Pilot, I'm borrowing what you said. That is truly golden

45lcshooter
December 8, 2012, 06:35 PM
Nope not breaking laws. But if one of my buddies is going to ask for some reloads or buy them from me. Im not going to tell everyone that im selling reloads to my buddies, because then every tom, dick, and harry is going to want reloads. If its not documented it never happened.

The show moonshiners, is documented so its happeneing. My buddies arent out online saying that i reload for them, they buy and i buy componets with the same dead presidents you do.

Im all for helping friends out if they dont have the money to buy a box of 20 30-06 for 18.99 that price is outragious, hence why we reload.

Im sure your not going to tell big brother that you reload and might have unregistered firearms, when this adminastration impliments a ban. Im sure as hang not going to tell them what i may or may not have.


Pretty much a more explantion of Float Pilot's in my basic opinion.

blarby
December 8, 2012, 06:58 PM
You can sell all the cast bullets you want.
No.


NO no.


NO NO NO !

Hate to over emphasize that one as much, but its simply not true.

Selling is verboten unless you possess a class 6. If you happen to possess a class 6, you might as well sell the ammo, too.

The angle here that most skirt this ruling on is "livelihood and profit".

Per my personal discussions with the ATF... Livelihood is harder to establish. Profit however, is not.

Trading cast bullets for brass ?

Sure.

Selling cast bullets to cover even the cost of lead ?

No go.

YMMV- But, the writing of that law is pretty clear.

I've dealt with this up and down the ladder this year......

While I admit, selling cast lead projectiles is incredibly low on the ATF radar, admitting and commiting federal offenses out of hand is generally a bad idea if it can be avoided.

Its very easy to put on rose colored glasses and say its ok. Trust me, that hue of glass is not shared by the folks that enforce these rules....

jcwit
December 8, 2012, 07:01 PM
Blarby I agree with you but put a link up to back up your statements.

jcwit
December 8, 2012, 07:03 PM
Im sure your not going to tell big brother that you reload and might have unregistered firearms

I have no registered firearms and have never had any, but I have many firearms.

blarby
December 8, 2012, 07:14 PM
Blarby I agree with you but put a link up to back up your statements.

Sure, here ya go :


http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf


Quote:
18 USC 923. Licensing
(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. The application shall be in such form and contain only that information necessary to determine eligibility for licensing as the Attorney General shall by regulation prescribe and shall include a photograph and fingerprints of the applicant. Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows:
(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer—
(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year;
(B) of firearms other than destructive devices, a fee of $50 per year; or
(C) of ammunition for firearms, other than ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $10 per year.
Quote:
18 USC 921. Definitions
(a) As used in this chapter

(10) The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

(17)(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;



As stated, its pretty clear.


You wanna explain to a judge and/or jury how you weren't trying to make a profit by selling those bullets ?

Be my guest.

" but I'm not trying" ........

Thats an explanation thats going to clean out every single cent you've ever owned in the telling, against an adversary that for all intents and purposes has unlimited resources with which to prosecute you- remember that.

If you are zoned for it- its not a hard license to get.

Believe me, the zoning is trickier than you may think......... Dont believe me ? Ask Longdayjake- he is going through this right now.

Don't believe him or me ?

Ask Brad over at Mo Bullet.

Dont believe any of us ?

Call the ATF.

Dont believe the ATF ?

Do what I did- and pay for a legal expert to give you an opinion on how this would play out legally.

Philosophically, I could debate livelihood and profit till I expired from lack of breath. In reality, it apparently doesn't play that way in federal court.

as explained to me, at the tune of some substantial dollars per hour:


"
The language is specifically vague to allow the unintentionally ignorant the occasional exchange of materials for monetary compensation. It is not worded in such a manner as to allow those who wish to do so to produce and distribute ammunition for compensation up to, but not crossing, the line of profit and loss.

Its one of the few areas of federal law that is worded in such a manner as to allow the judiciary some manner of leeway in prosecution of the "unsophisticated layman".

"

Without going into specifics as to the why, or the how, I'll simply relate the advice I paid to receive :

"Want to collect a dollar ? Get the license. "

And thats all I'm gonna say about that...

jcwit
December 8, 2012, 07:33 PM
Thanks, needed that to someone else.

45lcshooter
December 8, 2012, 07:43 PM
So from that if i read it correctly, no one unless you have a license may manufacture ammo. Under federal law.

I beleive the ATFE has bigger fish to fry than a local yokler reloading in his basement.

I know several people breakng that law, just like people speeding. Lol.

sfchemist
December 8, 2012, 07:49 PM
Thanks Float Pilot. That is one classic definition of the legal profession. I've cut and pasted it for future reference...... with your permission.

Keep your wings level, nose straight and the shiny side up.

jcwit
December 8, 2012, 07:55 PM
So from that if i read it correctly, no one unless you have a license may manufacture ammo. Under federal law.

I beleive the ATFE has bigger fish to fry than a local yokler reloading in his basement.

I know several people breakng that law, just like people speeding. Lol.

As do I, does not make it right or legal. I also know alot of folks who have paid hefty fines for speeding and other traffic violations.

To not obey laws and rules only leads to anarchy.

As far as reloading for others? In a word, Don't.

medalguy
December 8, 2012, 08:40 PM
I had an extended discussion with a very friendly ATF agent a couple of years ago about reloading. Essentially it boils down to this: If you sell ammunition you reloaded with your components, they consider it manufacturing. If a friend buys powder, brass, primers, and bullets and brings them over for you to reload, it's not manufacturing ammunition.

This does not cover the liability aspect, whether you're selling or giving away ammo.

ArchAngelCD
December 9, 2012, 12:02 AM
The only people other than myself who shoot my reloads are 2 of my sons and that's only because they take it off my shelf and go shooting! lol

bds
December 9, 2012, 02:28 AM
I had an extended discussion with a very friendly ATF agent a couple of years ago about reloading. Essentially it boils down to this: If you sell ammunition you reloaded with your components, they consider it manufacturing. If a friend buys powder, brass, primers, and bullets and brings them over for you to reload, it's not manufacturing ammunition.

This does not cover the liability aspect, whether you're selling or giving away ammo.
You may get away with it until someone complains for whatever the reason ... "Yes officer/your honor, he sold me the reloads that blew up my gun and injured my hand ... now I want him to replace the damaged pistol with a new one and pay for the hospital bills along with my lost time from work/wages"

We regularly see threads/posts of squib rounds and KaBooms. If your reloads cause any damage and/or injury (let's say your friend rechambered the same round several times and reduced the OAL on a max load that caused a KaBoom from weakened mixed range brass that's been reloaded several times), things may change very quickly. Once your reloads are out of YOUR sight, who knows what can happen to them ... but if anything does go wrong, you can almost be certain the blame will come right back at you!

Lost Sheep
December 9, 2012, 02:38 AM
...expert / attorney in firearm laws for our state, also a friend of mine of many years, and he said it doesn't matter if it's for profit or not, it's legal as long as you aren't conducting it as a business entity, thus violating FFL laws. In short he said that you can sell your relaods all day long to anyone, and for what ever price you like, as long as you are not advertising, or approaching it as a business.



Q: Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]
How much room is there between 1) "the purpose of livelihood and profit" and 2) "only for personal use".

Does the law mention advertising? Does the law mention "marketing"? No. Does the law require the the purpose be the primary purpose? No. "Personal use" generally means use by one's self and one's self only. This is often extended to immediate members of one's own household/family (as in use of game meat harvested for personal use).

You may argue the rightness or wrongness of the law regarding the sharing, trading, gifting or sale of personally loaded cartridges, but I don't think the law has any wiggle room. It's illegal. Not heavily enforced, maybe. But I wouldn't count on it.

Lost Sheep

Float Pilot
December 9, 2012, 03:25 AM
Back when I was a Law Dawg I attempted to work some cases with the ATF. I noted some issues that repeated themselves enough times to be of some concern.

1. Real criminals usually got away with whatever they were doing, because the ATF would drop the case or bungle it.

2. They always seem to take an odd, yet very high interest in some regular Joe with a nice job, family and house just because he was an NRA type.

3. They never stopped asking me why I knew so much about firearms. And they never were truthfull in telling the real cops about their part of a case.

You do not want those guys in your life. I am sure whoever they assigned to read all these blogs is taking notes... Probably in his mom's basement apartment, while wearing Batman PJs...

Queen_of_Thunder
December 9, 2012, 09:03 AM
While I have yet to start reloading I do have to point out that I would never allow use by anyone other than myself any ammo I've reloaded. The liability is simply not worth it. All it takes is one double charged round for you to lose it all. Just aint worth it in my book.

Walkalong
December 9, 2012, 09:30 AM
I think we have answered this one.

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