The Comancheros

I am currently watching the Comancheros on AMC. It is supposedly set in 1840 but all the guns are wrong.

All the revolvers are 1873 Colt's and the rifles are Winchesters. In the gun fights there is very little smoke.

Maybe I am just being to picky.

Yep, this is the only movie Hollywood ever made in which the weapons were not historically correct....

Maybe I am just being to picky.

I would say so. Most of the folks that watch the movie know zip about guns, so they simply enjoy the show. At the time the movie was made the extensive number of replicas of various frontier era guns weren't available, so they used those that were.

I have watched this movie several times and never related the time frame to the guns. In one of the scenes the widow of a friend of John Waynes says her husband was killed at San Jacinto, 4 years ago.

Every Oklahoma farm boy knows that the battle of San Jacinto was fought April 21, 1836 with muzzle loaders.

John Wayne movies frequently use "advanced" guns
In nearly every movie he uses a model 92 lever gun
Kind of surprised it Wasnt at the alamo

Movies have only recently tried to be authentic about guns & stuff.
--Dawg

I have a copy of a very early Daniel Boone talkie, and they are using trapdoors to defend Boonesboro.

In the Movie Zulu, there is a point in which the Brits are in two ranks firing at attacking Zulus, but instead of Martini Henry rifles, the actors are clearly operating bolt action rifles instead of underlever Martinis. Since they had dozens of Martinis in the movie, I can not understand why they shifted to a non authentic weapon for that scene.

In the opening credits, it the date of 1843 is shown just before the duel takes place. I agree that that is one of the most inaccurate movies gun-wise ever made.

But, I just think of it this way. John Wayne is so good, he can have any gun he wants in a film.

Similar to how in To Hell and Back, Audie Murphy's unit is so elite, they get web equipment that has not even been invented yet (M1945 pack systems in North Africa, M20 3.5 inch Bazookas in Italy, etc).

I remember in one western where they tried to be authentic and made "Henry rifles" out of mod 92s by removing the forestocks and painting the reciever gold colored to look like brass frames.

Except for a few Eastwood flicks, most the older westerns are terrible in this regard. But it's okay because many are otherwise wonderful. Eastwood used a lot of percussion guns and cartridge conversions in his movies. Although many of them were also a bit advanced for the time frame. At least he wasn't using SAA's at the end of the War of Northern Aggression in The Outlaw Josey Wales. Tom Selleck always puts a lot of effort into the guns in his movies. Tombstone and 3:10 to Yuma are also very good.

1940s-1960s westerns were really lacking in a lot of areas. Not only the guns; but, period incorrect hats, saddles, tack, and holsters, just to start. Clothes were really out there - how bout them jeans with an 8 inch cuff turned up, the ornate vest, or the white shirt that never got dirty??? Bad guys died without blood and gore and the good guys always wore white hats. The story lines were simple and usually nowhere close to being accurate as well as the generous use of an actual historical figure's name(s). You could listen to the background music and pretty much tell what was about to happen.

I did come to the conclusion that the best job in the old west was the person who replaced windows. You never saw a shoot-out where the actors didn't knock out every window with their gun barrel. Next scene, everything was replaced...

They were entertainment though, and many Saturday afternoons were spent watching those old westerns and dreaming about being a cowboy, sheriff, outlaw, or indian.

I think probably the only set guns they had back in the day were '73s. In the early 70s, we began to see SOME effort at period firearms. Big Jake was really cool, turn of the century, one of his sons had a scoped Mauser and one had a, what I think was a Mauser broomhandle.

I liked the TNT movie "Conagher", with Sam Elliot. He's such a great cowboy anyway. :D He carried a Smith and Wesson top break.

"Life of an outlaw's tough, ain't it boy?" :D

In the Movie Zulu, there is a point in which the Brits are in two ranks firing at attacking Zulus, but instead of Martini Henry rifles, the actors are clearly operating bolt action rifles instead of underlever Martinis. Since they had dozens of Martinis in the movie, I can not understand why they shifted to a non authentic weapon for that scene.

Maybe they were captured Mausers from the Boors? maybe.....:D

My wife is a Sci Fi fan. Her saying is "suspension of disbelief, dear". :D

Did everybody forget about the six shooters that never went empty?

As was mentioned, I don't think Uberti was around to make the replicas, much less the conversions to use the 4 in 1 blanks that were the only thing their insurance companies would have allowed them to fire at each other. The only alternative would have been for them to get a few dozen actual early Colt Patersons and muskets, load them with patches to hold the powder in, and then shoot the patches at one another at close range and hope nobody was horribly maimed.

The Eastwood era was around when the good replicas became available, and if you look closely they are invariably cartridge converted guns for contractual safety reasons.

Movies are mostly for entertainment, not for historical lessons.

Want to see a bad movie? White Commanche staring Capt James Kirk. He couldn't act then either. Makes me wonder how he ever stayed in acting.

1940s-1960s westerns were really lacking in a lot of areas. Not only the guns; but, period incorrect hats, saddles, tack, and holsters, just to start. Clothes were really out there - how bout them jeans with an 8 inch cuff turned up, the ornate vest, or the white shirt that never got dirty???
Don't forget hairstyles. Nearly all the men in those old westerns are cleanshaven, with short, brylcreamed hair. Look at real 19th century adult males, in old photos, on the other hand, and you'll find 9 out of 10 of them wearing full beards, muttonchops, leonine mustaches, or some other style of very abundant facial hair -- I would suppose this comes from how very unstylish face fur and long(ish) hair were during the '50s and '60s, and the actors being mostly unwilling to be badly out of fashion when they were walking around off camera (which was most of the time). You're right about all the accoutrements being mostly anachronistic, and everyone looks so much cleaner than they would have done back in those days of riding on dusty trails and dirt paths, in blazing heat, or walking dirty or muddy unpaved roads in the towns. And, to judge by the old westerns, nobody ever carried any sort of handgun but the Colt SAA (unless it was a derringer), and those were only ever carried in low slung, tied-down, buscadero rigs.

One of the things I like about more modern westerns is that while they may not be getting made nearly as often, when they do, there's a whole lot more attention paid to historical accuracy, at least when it comes to clothes, weapons, other gear, and the rest. I think the most recently made movie where I saw one of those Arvo Ojala fast draw rigs that was so popular in the "golden age" of Hollywood westerns was "Silverado" made in 1985. "Tombstone" and "Wyatt Earp," made just a few years later, whatever liberties they may have taken with events, were both outstandingly accurate in terms of the hairstyles, clothes, weapons, and so forth, and just about every major western made since then can make the same claim.

Sergio Leone was great at historically accurate firearms and realism for his movies except for the consistant one shot gunfights. I just wish he would have made more westerns before he died.

If you look closely, there are a few authentic guns to be found in the old Westerns. The early duel scene in "The Comancheros" shows Paul Regret and his opponent with single-shot percussion pistols.

http://i47.tinypic.com/35jbhck.jpg

Although not period correct, bad guy Lee Marvin isn't fast enough clearing leather with his long-barreled 1875 Remington against Wayne's 4 3/4" Peacemaker:

http://i45.tinypic.com/augig4.jpg

And as for genuine Colt Patersons, one of them shows up in the 1942 John Wayne movie "Reap the Wild Wind":

http://i45.tinypic.com/67qfs6.jpg
-James Serven. Colt Firearms

That's the smallest Paterson I've ever seen.

The Italians only copy the Paterson holster pistols. This pic, also from Serven's book, shows the three sizes. Middle pistol may well be the one used in the movie.
http://i49.tinypic.com/15wxted.jpg

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that.

The UNFORGIVEN was Eastwood's statement on the myths of the Old West. It's a dark, violent movie where men actually suffer when they die.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105695/trivia
"The following guns were used in this movie. 1. William Munny used a 1859 Starr revolver double action, a Smith and Wesson Schofield revolver, a 12-gauge double barreled coach shotgun, and later a Spencer rifle. 2. Ned uses a Spencer rifle. 3. The Kid uses a S&W Schofield, and earlier he uses a Winchester 1873 rifle. 4. English Bob uses a Colt 1873 "Peacemaker" Single action Army and a Bulldog .32 caliber pocket pistol. 5. Little Bill used a Colt 1873 "Peacemaker" Single action Army. 6. The Cathouse owner has a Colt 1851 single action revolver. 7. Andy the deputy uses a Winchester 1866 "Yellow Boy" made to look like a Henry rifle by removing the for-end. 8. The one armed law man uses 3 revolvers one a Remington 1875 and 2 Colt 1873 "Peacemakers". 9. Various people stick to the famed "peacemakers" and Winchester '73 rifles."

Sergio Leone was great at historically accurate firearms and realism for his movies

I love his stuff, but it's not particularly accurate. I can remember a whole bunch of anachronistic arms in "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly." Mostly cartridge conversions in a film supposedly set during the SW US Civil War.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Good,_The_Bad,_and_The_Ugly,_The

But he was no where near as bad an offender as John Ford and Howard Hawks ;-)

I'm happy to see that the standard for authenticity has improved greatly since then. These days most of the modern production westerns are right on the money or close to it. "Ride with the Devil" was a good example. Or the recent HBO miniseries about the Hatfields & Mccoys that showed a pretty accurate shifting of firearms from the CW through the turn of the century. Plus the films are much more likely to use real black these days.

There is really no reason why the major studios (Warner Bros., MGM, Paramount, etc.) didn't use period-correct guns. It certainly wasn't due to cost. Most black powder guns were just grandpa's old gun and collectors weren't too interested in percussion guns at the time (1930s-40s).
They went to the trouble and expense of acquiring real Thompson submachine guns and altering them to fire blanks. A Thompson was available to anyone who could afford them from 1921 until FDR enacted the NFA due to the West Point, Ga. labor riots in the 30s. There were VERY expensive at the time. I think they were about $250 new. In the 20s that was about 2-3 mos. pay. They could have picked up authentic percussion guns for a song.

If you pay attention, at the final shootout in the Cowboys, the one kid is using a walker and for a second they show the face of the cylinder. Looks like the cylinder chambers have been lined to shoot 32's.

The motion picture censorship "code" actually didn't allow films to feature Thompson submachineguns, at least in the hands of criminals. To my memory, only the original Scarface got away with it and only because it was a pre code film. You couldn't show them using a short barreled weapon or suppressor either. There's a Bogart picture where he has a machinegun but its kept in a box the whole movie and he only fires it off screen.

Several directors, John Ford and Howard Hawks to name a few, were unconcerned about the period authenticity of the firearms in their films. John Ford only cared that the guns went "bang!" when he wanted. I can't recall but one of John Wayne's mentioned it in a documentary I watched on the anniversary of Wayne's 100th birthday.

The first movie I ever saw that showed the actor actually reloading his Colt, I mean half cocking the hammer, then opening the loading gate, rotating the cylinder while working the extractor, was Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid where, at the end of the movie, Robert Redford was covering Paul Newman as he ran towards the mules for additional ammunition. I don’t think I ever seen it since. Great scene though.

I can think of one before that. In For a Few Dollars More, when Manco (Clint Eastwood) kicked Mortimer (Lee Van Cleef) out of his hotel room, Manco empties his gun with the ejector rod in the proper manner and reloads and continues to fire at Mortimer.

That is one of my favorite movies and my favorite movie song ever.

I can think of one before that. In For a Few Dollars More, when Manco (Clint Eastwood) kicked Mortimer (Lee Van Cleef) out of his hotel room, Manco empties his gun with the ejector rod in the proper manner and reloads and continues to fire at Mortimer.
I can't recall the title right now, but wasn't there an Eastwood movie where he actually used cap-n-ball revolvers, and was carrying around a set of spare cylinders to do "speed" reloads? :confused:

That was "Pale Rider." And I believe they were cartridge conversions of Remington 1858s.

Mdauben

That Clint Eastwood movie was "Pale Rider," if I remember right.

Darn! You guys were a might quicker on the draw than me. Here is the Internet Movie Firearms Database (a fantastic resource by the way) page for Pale Rider: http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Pale_Rider Is it just me, or do the barrels of movie guns seem to be bored out for dramatic effect? Because I would be afraid to fire any of those guns depicted on that page with live ammo if the barrel wall thickness is really that small.

I can't recall the title right now, but wasn't there an Eastwood movie where he actually used cap-n-ball revolvers, and was carrying around a set of spare cylinders to do "speed" reloads? :confused:
It seems he used authentic looking cap and ball pistols in "The Outlaw, Josie Wales,"

nice

"Some" of the older films such as "Santa Fe Trail" with Errol Flynn (time period is "pre civil war" ) are remarkably accurate at times
- C&B revovlers (Colt & Remingtons) , "slim jim" and "california" style holsters, pistol belts without cartridge loops predominate!
- but even here, there is the occasional "1873 " or "1875" revolver

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKF9Cv7l13k&list=SPEB9CE1A3C84CE3AD&index=5

at ~ 33:44 the crate of "bibles" breaks open and the discerning eye can make out Sharps Carbines (breechloading percusion models available since 1853)

at ~ 33:55 we clearly see John Brown's 1858 Remington belt pistol

but at ~ 37:44 slow motion allows us to see that John Brown's revolver magically grows an ejection rod ...

I also offer Spencer Tracy in "Roger's Rangers" and John Wayne in "Alamo" - granted, not "westerns" but they tried to be reasonably accurate whilst at times having to deal with hundreds of extras who cannot reload a musket - at one time a Hollywierd armory cobbled up some Springfield Trapdoor Rifles to look vaugely like flintlock muskets (at a distance) by altering the stocks and adding a fake flint hammer and frizzen.
These allowed untrained extras to reload using blank cartridges.

Bottom line- it's just entertainment and it is all up to the director.
Even in the latest "Last of the Mohicans", which was promoted as one of the most "Hysterically Accurate Fillums" of these times, whilst they worked VERY hard at Costuming, Military Drills, correct Quillwork, Wampum, Correct Eastern Tribes Tattoos, and convincing hand-to-hand Tomohawk, knife, and Warclub fight correography, the Director (Michael Mann) insisted that Hawkeyes legendary flint rifle should look more like
a Pennsylvania Rifle that would have been produced ~ 1790-ish than a more correct F&I War Era flint rifle produced post ~1750 ish .

http://www.mohicanpress.com/mo10015.html

( from http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/message/2539 )
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>the movie, for some reason Hollywood saw fit to outfit a F/I War
>"longhunter" with what was apparently a long and plain Lehigh Valley rifle
>(stylistically) of the 1780's which was outfitted with suspiciously
>Southern-looking iron furniture.

According to Wayne Watson, who built "Kildeer" for Michael Mann's LOTM, it's
a 1790's Allentown rifle. Wayne tried to talk Mann into something more
appropriate, but Mann was adamant about what he wanted. Wayne's response
was IMHO a classic: "You're paying for it. I'll put a propeller on it if
that's what you want."

Regards,
Joseph Ruckman
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yhs
shunka

The riots in West Point, GA seems to have eluded Google. There was lots of really nasty stuff going on back then, I just can't find any in West Point, GA.

Thnaks,

salty

There were a couple of stock companies that supplied props to the movie industry. I recall watching some of the early TV serials and seeing Henrys, 1866 Winchesters and 1873 Winchesters along with a variety of early revolvers. All originals. At some point, the hard movie life caused them to be retired and since more modern pieces were cheaper, that is what got used, and repaired.

The riots in West Point, GA seems to have eluded Google. There was lots of really nasty stuff going on back then, I just can't find any in West Point, GA.

Thnaks,

salty
It was quoted in a Thompson SMG pamphlet as West Point but may have been La Grange, Ga.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textile_workers_strike_%281934%29

This led to the passage of the NFA (National Firearms Act) which banned automatic weapons and other devices for US citizens.

It was quoted in a Thompson SMG pamphlet as West Point but may have been La Grange, Ga.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textile_workers_strike_%281934%29

This led to the passage of the NFA (National Firearms Act) which banned automatic weapons and other devices for US citizens.
The NFA does not ban the ownership of anything by anybody. It regulates the transfer of the above-mentioned items, but they are not banned from ownership by law-abiding citizens.

Hat,

This Forums own, Larry Correia, was once a kinda-sorta fun loving wage slave to FBMG, (Fuzzy Bunny Movie Guns). They had some really, really, neat stuff for rent to movie Production Companys.

That was before he became a world famous Monster Hunter and penned a few novels published by Baen.

salty

The NFA does not ban the ownership of anything by anybody. It regulates the transfer of the above-mentioned items, but they are not banned from ownership by law-abiding citizens.
As long as you have DEEEEEP pockets.