7mm-08 vs 7x57


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ExAgoradzo
December 9, 2012, 05:41 PM
I understand these are relatively similar cartridges.
Why did you choose what you did even if it is merely for availability?

If you have/had both did you like one better?

Thanks,
Greg

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Sav .250
December 9, 2012, 05:44 PM
From reading about Africa, it`s killed many elephants. Don`t own one but if it can drop an animal as big as that , it`gets my vote.

WYOMan
December 9, 2012, 05:46 PM
Seems to come down to a short action vs. long action.

Reloadron
December 9, 2012, 06:29 PM
While I do not load and shoot the 7X57 Mauser I do load and shoot the 7-08 Remington. The 7-08 Remington is a spawn of the .308 Winchester cartridge being a .308 unmodified Winchester case necked down to 7mm. While there are several factory bullet weights loaded today (http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/rifle-ammo-7mm08-remington) the initial offerings from Remington were only a 120 and 140 grain bullet I believe.

The case capacity of the 7-08 is slightly less than the 7X57 giving a slight edge to the 7X57 with heavier bullets but I doubt much the edge to worry about. Based on shooting from a 24" barrel bolt gun. That is my guess anyway and I have no idea how factual it is.

I see hand loading as the most viable means of getting the most out of either cartridge and overall see them more a six of one half dozen of the other scenario. There are factory loadings for both cartridges available off the shelf in the US so the 7X57 has plenty of availability.

As for a cartridge for an Elephant? Not in my book least I become the squishy stuff between the elephant's toes. Both cartridges are suitable for most N. American game sans the really large game and no way would I use it on an elephant.

I actually chambered a M1 Garand in the 7-08 cartridge and it has done quite well. :)

Ron

MCgunner
December 9, 2012, 06:49 PM
I understand these are relatively similar cartridges.
Why did you choose what you did even if it is merely for availability?

Well, I mean, why not? Does the .30-06 kill a deer any deader...I mean, really? I had a 1916 Spanish Mauser for a while, cool gun, but only accurate with 175 grain round nose due to the fast twist. A 7x57 with a slower twist and 140s is about as good as deer huntin' gets. I own other calibers up to 7mm Rem Mag. The little 7s are mild on the shoulder and have all the range and power one needs for deer and can handle up to elk in the woods, limited to 250 yards, maybe.

People choose what they like, too, have a yen for. I mean, not everyone wants a cookie cutter .30-06 for everything. :D A caliber choice doesn't have to meet some logical goal in performance or something, can be just because. I have a .257 Roberts that has killed dozens of deer. I'm not sure I ever needed any more, frankly. It's a 7x57 necked to .257". But, I like rifles, own others. My most ubiquitous caliber is .308. I really like the .308, but if I couldn't have found that gun that day in .308 and could have in 7-08, I'd own it in 7-08. Just as capable, better ballistic coefficients. .260 (6.5mm) ain't bad, either, even better BCs than 7mm. :D

MCgunner
December 9, 2012, 07:02 PM
BTW, "Kilimanjaro" Bell killed lots of elephants with the .275 Rigby (7x57 Mauser). The gun didn't kill those elephants, HE did. He used a heavy solid and put it in the brain. I put down hogs all the time with a .22LR 1 5/8" mini revolver, one shot to the head. Ain't bounced off, yet. I wouldn't hunt with a .22, but I could put down a hog outside the trap with a .22 rifle so long as I could sight his head. :D

.333 Nitro Express
December 9, 2012, 07:22 PM
7x57 can go up to 175gr without pushing the bullet too far inside the case, because of its longer neck (big whoop, say some, but I find it a good thing, so bully for me).

7/08 fits in a short action (big whoop, in my book, but some see it as a great value, so bully for them).

Get'em both.

Reloadron
December 9, 2012, 07:28 PM
Hog no problem, elephant for me, big problem! :)

Now I don't know how much truth there is to this but....

In Bell's day, elephant still roamed open grass lands, in huge numbers, unafraid
of distant hunters. Bell portered with him, a collapsible, elevated, shooting
stand. High enough so that he could see over the tall elephant grass, he could
take carefully aimed shots from far enough away not to spook the herd..somewhat
like the old buffalo hunters did in N America.

He was probably one of the finest rifle shots that EVER lived..with an intimate
knowledge of elephant anatomy that enabled him to hit the brain from whatever
angle he shot.

Those conditions are NOT found now!! Elephant are much warier and have taken to
thick cover. The ones left are generally of a larger type than the plains
elephant he hunted then.

It is on record that, quite literally, SCORES of intrepid (Stupid) hunters have
been killed by elephant, while trying to emulate Bell's feats. It STILL happens
on an almost annual basis.

The 7mm, 303 British, 30-06..even the 375 H&H Magnum are NOT gun enough to go
into bush after elephant, rhino, hippo or Cape Buffalo. Too many men have been
killed trying to prove otherwise!

Some Professional Hunters and Game Control Officers feel that the .577 Nitro
Express is barely adequate for today's conditions.

The above quote was taken from here. (http://yarchive.net/metal/elephant_hunting.html)

Now personally and just me I see "Kilimanjaro" Bell who used a Mauser actioned Rigby 275 Express (7 x 57 Mauser) to take elephants as a truly great shot and rifleman. Me? Nope, no way, not today, tomorrow or any day. :)

However, in trying to stay on target with the original post I am a pretty big fan of 7mm bullets in general. Just a fascination with their accuracy. Would like to find an older Remington 700 BDL action to build up in a 7X57 and try some assorted hand loads. I like the 7-08 and really enjoy a 7mm Rem Mag I have. I only mention the Remington BDL action because I am tooled up to work on them from years ago.

Ron

ExAgoradzo
December 9, 2012, 07:53 PM
The question for me isn't at all decided on a 'long' action or 'short' action: I don't mean to sound dismissive but does pulling the bolt back a bit more ruin anyone's day???

Now, if we were talking out of an AR-10 style rifle, now I get it. But then, I don't own any AR style gun...yet.

But I am enjoying reading this discussion, that is why I come on THR!
Thanks,
Greg

.333 Nitro Express
December 9, 2012, 07:58 PM
Agoradzo, my point exactly.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but when it comes to bolt-action rifles for big game, I've never understood the true benefit of a short action, other than being able to say how wonderfully efficient one's rifle is.

<ducks>

jmr40
December 9, 2012, 08:12 PM
The 7X57 was the 1st modern chambering and has proven capable of taking every animal on the planet.

The US military lengthened the 7X57 and opened it up to 7.62mm to create the 30-06.

The 30-06 was shortened to create the 308

The 308 was necked down to 7mm to create the 7-08, effectively re inventing the original 7X57.

What goes around comes around.

With factroy loads the 7-08 is the better round, but with good handloads the 7X57 will still outperform it. As stated it really comes down to short action vs long action. And how nostalgic you are about your chambering choices.

ExAgoradzo
December 9, 2012, 08:12 PM
<ducks>
HaHa! I should have written that as well!!!
Greg

ExAgoradzo
December 9, 2012, 08:14 PM
With factroy loads the 7-08 is the better round, but with good handloads the 7X57 will still outperform it. As stated it really comes down to short action vs long action. And how nostalgic you are about your chambering choices.

Ah! That's the answer I was looking for! That and the 'ready availability' of factory ammo... Well, I bought my 45-70 because of history passing over 'more powerful' and 'better' rounds for a sense of history...

Love this discussion!

Greg

FiveInADime
December 9, 2012, 08:20 PM
I think the 7mm-08 Rem. is cooler looking with long bullets in it. Looks X-treme. Like, "Let's go get some @#$!ing Mountain Dew!" X-treme. It's really good for Mall Ninja/Urban "Snipers". 7x57 Mauser? PSHH... Sounds like something my grandpa keeps in his underwear drawer. Probably can't get a Tactical Super-Sniper X-treme rifle in 7x57 Mauser with tactical rails, a 40-power scope, and 2 3" sunshades for extra-X-tremeness.

jmr40
December 9, 2012, 08:23 PM
I've never understood the true benefit of a short action, other than being able to say how wonderfully efficient one's rifle is.



Several benefits.

#1
You CAN build a lighter rifle. Unfotunately most manufacturers don't really take advantage of this and with most manufacturers the difference is small. But a few manufacturers who have figured it out it is possible to build a 308 a full pound lighter than a 30-06. Same with a 7-08 vs a 270 or 280.

#2
Short actions chamberings and rifles are simply more accurate. The 300 WSM has proven to be more accurate than a 300 win mag. Same with all the short action chamberings vs similar, but longer cartridges.

#3
The more efficient cases are a big part of the reason for enhanced accuracy since the powder burns more consistently. They also need less powder to get the same speeds which reduces recoil. A 300 WSM will give 99% of a 300 win mags speed, but with only 90% of the recoil.

SaxonPig
December 9, 2012, 08:26 PM
The 7-08 will get it done.

The 7x57 will get it done with panache.


http://www.fototime.com/C8E4E840226D84E/standard.jpg


http://www.fototime.com/2B252A97154B18D/standard.jpg

RPRNY
December 9, 2012, 08:40 PM
Shooting Times had an article this month on hand loading for 7x57 vs 7mm-08. A great point is made above that the 30-06 evolved from the 7x57 and in turn gave rise to the .308 which has itself born the 7mm-08. The end result is that hand loaded in modern rifles in the mid-weight bullet range (which concerns 90% of shooters), it is sechs auf ein and half a dozen of another. Although Saxon Pig sums it up rather well ;-)

DM~
December 9, 2012, 08:51 PM
Bell was a BIG TIME poacher! At a time whern you could literally walk right up and shoot an elephant exactly where you wanted... He was also an amazing rifle shot and it didn't much matter what round he used, for THAT reason!

I hunted with a 7x57 for a time, i shot numerous caribou using Speer 175 mag tips. It worked perfectly for me...

Today i could buy a 7-08 and be quite happy using it for the rest of my life, on deer and blk. bear!

DM

readyeddy
December 9, 2012, 09:11 PM
His name was Walter D.M. Bell, nicknamed "Karamojo" Bell.

browningguy
December 9, 2012, 09:20 PM
I shoot a 7x57 with mostly with 173 gr. SPCE bullets when shooting factory loads, it can shoot through just about anything in North America, and it does it with very little recoil/noise/muzzle blast. It is significantly better than a 7mm-08 with heavy bullets which is what I prefer. The 162 SST and Barnes 175's are really fine hunting bullets for those of us that reload.

Swampman
December 9, 2012, 09:24 PM
7mm Mauser: Because they never built a military Mauser in 7mm/08...

Abel
December 9, 2012, 09:27 PM
Shooting Times had an article this month on hand loading for 7x57 vs 7mm-08. A great point is made above that the 30-06 evolved from the 7x57 and in turn gave rise to the .308 which has itself born the 7mm-08.

I am fairly certain that the 300 Savage gave birth to the 308, not the 30-o6. The 308 then replaced the 'o6. Maybe that's what you meant by "gave rise"?

30Cal
December 9, 2012, 09:42 PM
I went with the Mauser. Ammo availability (1985 if that matters).

R.W.Dale
December 9, 2012, 09:51 PM
I've owned and shot both and there is one critical difference.

Being a Mauser military chambering originally its been my experience that chamber dimensions for 7x57 even in commercial guns is quite a bit looser than ammunition dimensions. This in my experience causes 7x57 to be a bit of a brass mangler unless forming cases from something else for your specific rifle (neck clearance is still very generous).

7-08 being thoroughly modern with no 19th century military baggage has ammunition dimensions much closer to chamber dimensions and as a result works brass much much less.

This mattered so much to me I sold this exquisite gold grade interarms in 7x57

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/FIRE/Picture051-1.jpg




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

R.W.Dale
December 9, 2012, 09:53 PM
I am fairly certain that the 300 Savage gave birth to the 308, not the 30-o6. The 308 then replaced the 'o6. Maybe that's what you meant by "gave rise"?

Depending on what source you read 7x57 or 7.65 Mauser were the very first rounds to feature the ubiquitous .473" case head.

The case that o6, 270,300,308 are all based on




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

Shadow 7D
December 9, 2012, 10:00 PM
As some one has said
'there is VERY little new, just lots of reinventing....'
I don't really see the reason for some super short...... magnum
That said, there is also the rounds that are trying to push the most out of a platform like all the calibers that snap on an AR lower....

ExAgoradzo
December 9, 2012, 11:09 PM
Beautiful gun: good note. Thanks RWDale.

Greg

wlewisiii
December 9, 2012, 11:46 PM
I have owned both; I kept the 7x57. The reasons are all the same as upthread - history, nostalgia, a nice old Model 93 that I enjoy shooting despite Bubba's best efforts, easier to reload 175's for it.

My current project rifle is a 7x57 Scout rifle based on a VZ24 action. 19" barrel. I expect it will be handy in the northern Wisconsin woods.

valnar
December 9, 2012, 11:57 PM
Seems to be an easy question to answer.

Do you own any older 7x57 Mauser guns? If not, buy a 7mm-08.

tahoe2
December 10, 2012, 12:23 AM
I have two 7x57 Spanish mausers, the cartridge is old and so are my guns, I stick to the lower pressures that they were designed for. However when loaded to higher pressures in a modern action I believe the old round surpasses the 7-08, especially with the larger bullets ie; 154, 162, & 175 grns. Of course this is just my opinion and I haven't researched it to back up my statements, but I'll stick to the low pressure 7x57 rounds for deer and use my 8x57 for elk. As long as the shots are placed where they need to be, they will do their job !!

morcey2
December 10, 2012, 01:02 AM
Depending on what source you read 7x57 or 7.65 Mauser were the very first rounds to feature the ubiquitous .473" case head.

The case that o6, 270,300,308 are all based on


That would be the 8x57J mauser. Pre-dates both the 7x57 and 7.65x53. (all of which are great rounds.)

I have a 7x57 mexican mauser which I'm very happy with. I don't think there's enough of a difference in most situations between 7x57 and 7-08 to worry about. If you handload and have a good solid rifle, the edge in most cases will go to the 7x57.

Matt

Clark
December 10, 2012, 03:01 AM
When I compare them, the potential difference is only about 54 fps or standing 33 yards closer.


Holding constant:
65 kpsi*
26" barrel in 7mm
Hornady 7MM .284 DIA 162GR BIG GAME POLY CARB TIP 28452 bullets

Comparing cartridge performance with Quickload and Quicktarget at close to optimum powder choice and 65kpsi:
7mmT/CU ........................26.1 gr H335 2330 fps -471 yards
7-30 Waters ........................30 gr W748 2456 fps -395 yards
7mmBR ...........................31.2 gr W748 2510 fps -360 yards
7mm IHMSA .......................40.2 gr Re17 2704 fps -247 yards
7mm-08 .......................40.6 gr IMR4895 2789 fps -198 yards
7mm-08AckleyImproved .........43.6 gr Re15 2833 fps -171 yards
7x57mm ...........................44.6 gr Re15 2843 fps -165 yards
7x57mmAckleyImproved .........46.4 gr Re15 2873 fps -150 yards
284Win .........................50.0 gr IMR4350 2890 fps -172 yards
280Rem ............................53.5 gr H414 2961 fps -152 yards
7mm Rem short action ultra mag 55.5 gr Re17 3015 fps -73 yards
280RemAckleyImproved ........57 gr IMR4350 3019 fps -71 yards
7mmRemMag ......................68.2 gr Re22 3129 fps -15 yards
7mmRem ultra mag ............83.3 gr IMR7828 3130 fps -15 yards
7mmWeathMag ....................71.8 gr Re22 3170 fps +7 yards
7mmSTW .............82.2 gr Ramshot Magnum 3158 fps 0 yards

*The 7mm IHMSA, 7mm-08, 7mm-08AckleyImproved, 7x57mm, 7x57mmAckleyImproved, 280Rem, and 280RemAckleyImproved have 1889 Mauser case heads [7.65x53mm parent] with large Boxer primer pockets and 65,000 psi is a reasonable max pressure for handloads.
*The 7mmBR 1889 Mauser case heads [7.65x53mm parent, 6mmBR parent] with small Boxer primer pockets and could have gone to 80,000 psi:
*The 7mmRemMag, 7mmWeathMag, and 7mmSTW have a 1912 H&H case head [375 H&H parent] and could have gone to 70,000 psi.
*The 7mmTCU has a 1950 Rem case head [.222 Parent] with small Boxer primer and could have gone to 75,000 psi
*7x30 Waters has a Winchester 1895 case head [ 30-30 parent] and could have gone to 70,000 psi.
*The 284 has a Winchester 1954 case head [284 parent], and possibly should not go more than 56,000 psi.

DM~
December 10, 2012, 10:05 AM
I shoot a 7x57 with mostly with 173 gr. SPCE bullets when shooting factory loads, it can shoot through just about anything in North America, and it does it with very little recoil/noise/muzzle blast. It is significantly better than a 7mm-08 with heavy bullets which is what I prefer. The 162 SST and Barnes 175's are really fine hunting bullets for those of us that reload.

Huh???? I have the Nosler reloading manual #6 in my hands,

Top loads with 160 grain bullets,

7mm mauser 2686 fps
7-08 Rem. 2,780 fps

Top loads with 175 grain bullets,

7mm mauser 2574 fps
7-08 Rem. 2623 fps

As i see it, that's pretty much a wash, with the 7-08 Rem. having the advantage.

DM

Boxhead
December 10, 2012, 10:10 AM
My 13 year old son is pretty fond of the 7x57 pushing the 160 hr NAB in his lousy old long action Walther Mauser with an archaic 1.5-5X scope, in junk Weaver mounts no less.;)

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa437/boxhead61/AfricaMyCamera086.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa437/boxhead61/Africa356.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa437/boxhead61/Africa296.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa437/boxhead61/Africa313.jpg

helotaxi
December 10, 2012, 10:30 AM
I am fairly certain that the 300 Savage gave birth to the 308, not the 30-o6. The 308 then replaced the 'o6. Maybe that's what you meant by "gave rise"?
While the .300 Savage was designed to duplicate .30-06 performance (given, it was the rather anemic military load with dated powder technology) in a shorter rifle, so basically the same goal as the .308, and uses the same case head diameter, the .308 was developed from the .30-06. The .300 Savage might have been an "inspiration" for the .308 but the case came from the .30-06.

RPRNY
December 10, 2012, 10:32 AM
Well, there you go Boxhead. Clearly he can't hit anything with all that junk and that old cartridge. ;)

MCgunner
December 10, 2012, 11:11 AM
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but when it comes to bolt-action rifles for big game, I've never understood the true benefit of a short action, other than being able to say how wonderfully efficient one's rifle is.

I have two short actions and a long action. I prefer the short actions for hunting because they're so compact and light and quick to the shoulder and don't bang in to stuff in a box blind, especially the little 20" Remington M7. That little M7 is light for all day spot and stalk and 3/4 MOA accurate for making the actual shot, too. Very versatile rifle in .308 Winchester. I'm not sure that has more'n an inch to do with the action length, just that short actions tend to be handier rifles. I won't apologize for liking a short action rifle, though, even if it has little to do with the action length. If I were to get to go on a New Mexico elk hunt today, I'd probably take that little M7 and use the Savage 7mm Rem Mag as a back up. I'm gettin' too old to lug that thing around.

Arkansas Paul
December 10, 2012, 11:51 AM
With factroy loads the 7-08 is the better round, but with good handloads the 7X57 will still outperform it

This is true, but keep in mind, a lot of those old military Mausers aren't made for the pressures of todays rounds. That's why factory ammo for the 7x57 has a reputation for being rather anemic. Don't get me wrong, even those are dandy for deer, but to ramp up the 7x57 to outperform the 7mm-08, you need a modern action for safety's sake.
At least that's what I've read on the internet. :)

MCgunner
December 10, 2012, 11:55 AM
Many of the old Mausers can handle the pressure, it's just that they don't have the gas handling capabilities if a case blows. The gas will come back in your face. SO, they load down in reverence to this at the factories. It's not the strength of the action, just safety in design.

If you get a Mauser 98 in 7x57, load that sucker to modern levels and live happy!

Arkansas Paul
December 10, 2012, 12:43 PM
Yes, I would imagine a 98 Mauser with the 3 lugs would handle just about anything you could throw at it.

Clark
December 10, 2012, 02:50 PM
DM~
As i see it, that's pretty much a wash, with the 7-08 Rem. having the advantage.
DM
The "reloading manuals" are not testing them at the same pressure.
But that is not as big an out of control variable as the difference is like comparing the chocolate chip cookie recipe on the chocolate chip bag to the chocolate chip cookie recipe in Betty Crocker's cook book.

targetshooter22
December 10, 2012, 04:28 PM
So it's apples to oranges between the two. My Mauser 95 in 7x57 shoots really well and is very accurate, but that pre-98 action is not to be pushed, so published loads only for me.

Others in the family have 7mm-08's, one Ruger that is accurate as hot as you will take it and one Remington 788 that will lock up like a bank vault with the Ruger loads, but will shoot a ragged hole at 100 yards with softer loads.

Maybe each gun really is different, and that plus the ability of the shooter is the real difference? In that case, pick what you like to think about, shoot it, and enjoy.

Arkansas Paul
December 10, 2012, 05:34 PM
My Mauser 95 in 7x57 shoots really well and is very accurate, but that pre-98 action is not to be pushed, so published loads only for me.

Don't let that get you down. If you're hunting whitetails, those published loads are more than enough. The 7x57 is very underrated IMO. My dad just got an old 95 Mauser at a gun show for $90 and we're gonna bubba it up. I can't wait. :neener:

morcey2
December 10, 2012, 05:38 PM
My dad just got an old 95 Mauser at a gun show for $90 and we're gonna bubba it up. I can't wait. :neener:

HEATHEN!!!! Burn him!!

Ok. not really. :) I'd love to find a 95 mauser for that. Chilean?

Matt

j1
December 10, 2012, 05:43 PM
Whether you call them pancakes or flapjacks. They both taste the same.

Arkansas Paul
December 10, 2012, 06:37 PM
Ok. not really. I'd love to find a 95 mauser for that. Chilean?

I believe so. It shoots pretty good with the military sights from 50 yds. Can't wait to get it drilled and tapped and work up a good load for it.

targetshooter22
December 10, 2012, 07:00 PM
My 95 is definitely "Modelo Chileano" but has German markings too. It's already been "Bubba'd Up" with a mannlicher style full stock, magazine drop plate, and the safety on the bolt altered to fit with a scope. I'm sure it was re-blued before I bought it too; stepped military barrel with a very shiny finish. Haven't taken it afield in a long time now, but always seemed to work well at the range.

morcey2
December 10, 2012, 07:51 PM
I think all of the Chilean 1895s were German-made, either Lowes or DWM. I'm still looking for one.

ak257
December 10, 2012, 09:55 PM
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a257/akpls/hdr_00003_0.jpg

I own and load for both. The 7x57's seem to shoot the 175's better than the 08. Otherwise it's a toss-up.

ExAgoradzo
December 10, 2012, 10:13 PM
Welcome AK257...I see you are a newbe to THR, but not to guns!!!
Greg

Kahr33556
December 10, 2012, 10:24 PM
Jack O'Connor likes the 7 x 57
I have mine loaded with 120 gr bullet and its moving pretty fast, over 3,000 fps

ak257
December 10, 2012, 11:33 PM
Welcome AK257...I see you are a newbe to THR, but not to guns!!!
GregThanks for the welcome. I've lurked around for quite a while, but finally took the time to register.

Boxhead
December 11, 2012, 11:59 AM
Even the M96 Swede works fine with the 7x57, about ideal IMO. The 140 gr NAB here.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa437/boxhead61/OryxHuntCatsFireplace011.jpg

chg
December 11, 2012, 12:15 PM
I own both, a round top Ruger 7x57 and a model 7 Remington. Both are excellent cartridges. The advantage the 7mm 08 has over the 7x57 is it can be had in a shorter action, lighter, and shorter oal length rifle. An 18" 7mm 08 duplicates what is obtainable in a 22" 7x57 using 139 or 140 gr bullets in each. A 140 gr buller starting out at 2800fps works very well for what we have in the lower 48.

303tom
December 11, 2012, 01:51 PM
The 7x57 has a slight edge over the 7mm-08...............

R.W.Dale
December 11, 2012, 02:55 PM
WARNING DUBIOUS LOADING PRACTICES IN THIS POST.


The two are so similar in a modern firearm and not some old small ring Mauser you can infact use 7-08 data to load x57 to full potential. Btdt




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