[M-Cameron]

A Sturmgewehr 44 was turned in at a gun buy back and thankfully some awesome police officers ID the gun and are allowing the owner to sell it rather than let it be destroyed!

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/12/10/sturmgewehr-44-handed-in-to-police-buy-back/


how cool is that, with all the horror stories of valuable guns being turned in at buybacks for a $50 gift card.....heres one where the police officers were the ones to save the gun.

it does concern me that someone would sell a family members WW2 bring back, even if they arent a 'gun person'

[rondog]

Gotta wonder if it was registered and legal.

[3twelves]

Rage at that people are that stupid.

[Mac Attack]

I read that if it was a brought back by a veteran from the war and the person had his documentation that it was approved by a commanding officer (not sure the level) that the documents could be used in lieu of registering for the NFA.

[Neo-Luddite]

An odd story. The legality of such a thing under NFA will require good lawyers or friends with clout. At the vaporous regions of the NFA as it is implimented, all things become possible....at least for some.

[AK103K]

I read that if it was a brought back by a veteran from the war and the person had his documentation that it was approved by a commanding officer (not sure the level) that the documents could be used in lieu of registering for the NFA.
If it wasnt registered by 68, its contraband.

[TurtlePhish]

WRT registration, it probably went to a museum.

Wow, can't believe that happened in CT.

[AK103K]

If they dont have a tax stamp for it, its contraband, and the police really have nothing to say about it. Its in the domain of the NFA, and under the jurisdiction of the the ATF.

[pikid89]

Perhaps, grandpa died, and never mentioned his tax stamp to grandma or the grandkids...maybe they are on file somewhere in his old file cabinet or something

Grandma then just wanted "that old rifle" out of the closet and couldnt think of anywhere else to turn

Is there any way to search the registry backwards, and find out if in fact it was registered or not?

[MachIVshooter]

rather than let it be destroyed!

I would just about guarantee that it wouldn't be destroyed. The awsomeness of the officers lies in allowing her to profit from it's sale, rather than having taken it for $50 and lined the department's collective pockets with however much a museum or well connected collector was willing to pay for it.

As an aside, there really should be registration amnesty for this kind of thing. It was brought back legally and has been here all along, stuffed away in some locker or closet.

[AK103K]

Is there any way to search the registry backwards, and find out if in fact it was registered or not?
If they dont have the paperwork in hand, then they need to get a lawyer who deals with the NFA and start that process.

Unfortunately, the registry is notoriously a mess (hey, the govt. isnt held to the same standards we are), and why its very important to protect that paperwork. You may very well have the only copy.

Perhaps they do have a stamp, and brought that info along, and one of the cops was in the know as far as what it is and the requirements are, and hence the response. If they dont have the paperwork, its contraband, and the cops really have no say, other than to confiscate it and turn it over to the ATF.


As an aside, there really should be registration amnesty for this kind of thing. It was brought back legally and has been here all along, stuffed away in some locker or closet.
There is a registry, but it has been "closed" for guns of this type, since the GCA 68. All others (machine gun wise) closed in 86. The NFA 34 was an end run around the Constitution, but still legal in a sense. GCA 68 showed that the Constitution was really meaningless and you only have the "rights" the government gives you, and 86 really hammered that home.

There are tons of WWII bring backs in the same state, and awaiting the same fate, and with the WWII veterans dying off at a good clip now, more and more families are facing the same situation. If they were registered under the amnesty, they are worth a lot of money, if not, they are worth nothing, but 10 years and $250000 fine if not turned in and if youre caught in possession of them.

[josiewales]

Anybody notice the M1 that was gonna be shredded? :(

[AK103K]

Its an M14(or M1A), not an M1. If you look close, you can see the lockout (if it is a real M14) at the rear of the receiver.

[Carl N. Brown]

Is there any way to search the registry backwards, and find out if in fact it was registered or not?

If the ATF has kept their copy of the registration papers, yes. As others have noted, ATF has misplaced paperwork over the years, and it is up to the legally registered owner to safeguard their copy of the NFA registry papers.

You put the original Form 4 (or pre-1986 Form 1 for an MG) in a safe deposit box and make copies for your gunsafe and range bag to show the gun is legally registered.

In case of inheritance of an NFA item, it should have been discussed with the heirs by the owner well in advance; otherwise, there are a few lawyers familiar with NFA.

[josiewales]

Its an M14(or M1A), not an M1. If you look close, you can see the lockout (if it is a real M14) at the rear of the receiver.

Yea I just missed the a. I highly doubt it is a real m14 because they probably would have given it back to it's owners as well.

[MachIVshooter]

There is a registry, but it has been "closed" for guns of this type, since the GCA 68. All others (machine gun wise) closed in 86.

I'm well aware of that. Hence why I said there should be amnesty provisions for this type of unique and rare occurance.

If the GI brought back an NFA item on a CO letter that was legal to possess without registration prior to '68, there was no notification to this lawful owner that his trophy was about to become contraband.

It's not right that a soldier could go through the proper channels to lawfully possess an MG at the time, but a change in the law 20-odd years later that he would most likely be unaware of (after all, they didn't heve the good 'ol interwebz in '68 to stay up on the ATF's position at any given moment) suddenly makes his legal MG contraband. Ignorance of law may not be an excuse for violation in general, but it's not exactly fair when legislation passes quietly (again, I suspect for non-gunnies in the '60s, gun control legislation really was pretty quiet) that makes once-lawful acts unlawful over night.

[AK103K]

I'm well aware of that. Hence why I said there should be amnesty provisions for this type of unique and rare occurance.
Im not arguing with you there, just stating what it is.

I never understood why they closed the amnesty (well, really, I do, but thats besides the point here), as owning the guns wasnt illegal, just possessing one without the tax being paid was, and still is. The amnesty allowed that tax to be paid on guns that it hadnt been, and they got registration to boot. You would think that with the state of the US government and the economy, they would welcome any income they could get, wouldnt you? Not to mention, knowing who might have things that need collecting down the road, if things continue like they are. But alas, they closed the amnesty not long after the GCA68, and at that point, only what was made here was allowed. They cut that off in 86. Arent you glad we live in a free country? :rolleyes:

Personally, I think the guns should have been legal and the stamp issued without cost, when they returned and brought it in, just for their service. But things like that dont go well with the "control" issues the government has going on. Just like troops now really cant bring back war trophys at all, or at least thats what Ive been seeing. Ive been told its not just guns that cant come back either.

[Neo-Luddite]

NFA was mostly ignored prior to '68 and ATF as an agency in its own right. No one cared and no one was bothered ~ or so I've read. There is so much NFA contraband in attics and guess what, current law allows for surrender. The law needs to change.

[Zeke/PA]

The ATF?
Probably have to school their "Agents" as to this superb find!

[Batty67]

I strongly suspect that it will NOT be destroyed. The news feature could help generate public interest for the wife to have it sold. But since she was willing to turn it in for $50, I expect the ATF will collect it, store it somewhere for a few years/decades, before it ends up in some museum.

[alsaqr]

There is some precedent for giving an unregistered NFA weapon to a museum. According to the linked article; the receiving museum must receive federal funds.

In 2009 the unregistered Maxim machinegun captured by Sgt. Alvin York and his troops was donated to the Museum of Appalachia:

Library Trustee John Welch said the library and Nahant Historical Society tried to find a way to keep the historic gun, which is fully functional, in town but that proved impossible. The only option open to the library was to destroy the gun or to transfer it to a museum that receives federal funding so the Board of Library Trustees entered into an agreement with the Museum of Appalachia, which is building an exhibit around the weapon.

"We can't give it to Nahant Historical Society," he said. "It has to be donated to a museum that gets federal funding. So we're donating it to the Museum of Appalachia and the museum is making a $10,000 donation to our building fund. We'd much rather see the gun at the Nahant Historical Society but the government won't let us do that."


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2193660/posts

http://www.museumofappalachia.org/Alvin_York_Machine_Gun.html

[22250Rem]

Couldn't that thing be declared a "war trophy" and surrendered to local law enforcement to be held in their property room until something can be worked out as to what to do with it? Like giving it to an eligible museum or selling it to someone capable of legally owning and registering it? I inherited the Luger pistol one of my uncles brought home in 1945. It was never registered in this country and that's what we did. It had to spend about a year in the property room while the government ran it through their computers and when it was declared transferable it was only a matter of a NICS check on me and then it was added to my pistol permit. If the people who turned that Sturmgewehr in are the family of the veteran who brought it back they were merely trying to do the "right thing" even if they were unaware of the implications of having something like that. They should be able to turn it over to authorities and dispose of it in a fair and legal manner, and be able to collect whatever they can get for it once the government figures out that it's not stolen or a crime gun. Amazingly, there ARE still people in this country that can legally own something like that, as far as I know.

[AK103K]

Possessing it without a tax stamp is a crime.

If the gun isnt in the registry, its never going to be at this point. If they had torch cut the receiver and sold off the the other parts, they probably could have recovered a fair amount of money. As it stands, the most they will get for it now will be what the buy back was offering.

It only has the $30000 value if it is in the registry as transferable to individuals. Thats why the machine guns that are transferable today, now cost what they do. My MP5 was $800 in early 86. These days, youre looking at around $20000. Its all about supply and demand. The 86 ban and frenzy leading up to it, in effect doubled what was in the registry, and at the same time, fixed (except for attrition) the number of guns available for transfer to individuals.

[MountainBear]

I'd be happy about this, but it was still a gun-buy back. A place where people who obviously don't know better can take someone's pride and joy and get a 50$ gift card. So one admittedly very cool rifle is spared. Several others are going into the shredder. Still a travesty that our tax dollars are being used for this...

[Zeke/PA]

At a Gun buyback in nearby Lancaster PA a few years back, a revolver was brought in that turned out to be the VERY one that Teddy Roosevelt carried up San Juan Hill.
Thankfully someone was alert and the piece made it's way into a museum.
Also, some local buybacks over the years, have turned up choice specimens that survived the Blast Furnace by winding up in the possession of those"connected"!

[coolluke01]

I had a post along these lines, but I decided it should be a new post.

[USAF_Vet]

I've never participated in a gun buy back, so I am curious.

Where does the money come from that buys the gift cards the police exchange for the guns?
I assume it comes from their operating budget, our tax dollars. Seems to be a shame that our tax dollars go to serve the destruction of some very fine firearms.

And on that note, what guarantee do we have that these guns are being destroyed, and not going home with various officers at the end of the day?

At least there are some places where the local PD sells the guns to gun stores, who I turn sell them to the people.

[Zeke/PA]

USAF vet,
In fact the good stuff goes home with those connected.
In a recent "buyback" I heard of a guy taking two Lugers home.
The "buybacks" are a " feel good" bunch of Bullcrap and NOBODY wins except those "in charge"!

[mister_murphy]

In fact the good stuff goes home with those connected.

Just curious if you have examples to support this? I hear this alot but Ive never found it to be true.

USAF_Vet,

Where does the money come from that buys the gift cards the police exchange for the guns?

The money would generally come from a charity, or be raised through private donations specifically for the buy back.

And on that note, what guarantee do we have that these guns are being destroyed, and not going home with various officers at the end of the day?

Records availability will vary from one state or agency to another, but with a buy back the records should be easy to obtain, either through a simple formal request, and going up through the legal channels through FOIA, and the various state/local laws that require open records.

Here is a link to help with various states...
http://www.nfoic.org/state-foi-resources

edit to add:

While people will have varying levels of dislike for the "buy back" programs, why not work together, and try offer alternitives, and help support them? Such things as working with various law enforcement to offer public firearm safety programs, etc?

If nothing else, why not volunteer to be an observer, and watch to ensure the "buy back" program is done per the local law, and the policy of the "buy back"?

[CZguy]

If nothing else, why not volunteer to be an observer, and watch to ensure the "buy back" program is done per the local law, and the policy of the "buy back"?

I'd love to be an observer, especially if I got a chance to buy something special. :D

[AK103K]

Id love to stand out side, with $100 bills, and get to make the first offer on anything coming in. :)

[22250Rem]

Back in the mid-nineties I worked in a chemical waste incinerator for a couple years. About twice a year we would do what was called a "gun burn" for the local police dept. They packed 'em into fiber drums and we set them on the conveyor to the incinerator. Didn't get to see them before they went in but when they came out they were either melted down to a little glob; like all the Ravens and other stuff made of that pot metal or whatever it was. Or the higher quality stuff came out so bad it was absolutely unusable. I've seen what was left of SKS's and shotguns and lots of handguns that were turned in at buybacks or confiscated or wound up with the cops for whatever reason. I used to chat with the cops at the gun burns and found out that gun buybacks generally pick up all the absolute junk that is unshootable because any gun that works is worth a lot more on the street than any buyback will give you. Rarely does anything nice and/or valuable show up when it's only gonna fetch 50 or 75 bucks. If anything nice and/or valuable ever showed up it's funny how they never seemed to make it to the incinerator.

[Armybrat]

My Dad brought one of these Belgian made BARs back from France in 1945 (but without the barrel grip handle):

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdx2w5TO6c1rwjpnyo1_500.jpg

My Grandpa, an auto mechanic & blacksmith, soldered a 1/4" brass plug in the barrel chamber to plug it up. He said it could easily be tapped out with a metal rod. ;)
The local FBI agent examined it and gave Dad a government form declaring it to be a DEWAT curio/relic.

It was kept in the family until 6 or 7 years ago when we donated it to the Texas National Guard Military Museum at Camp Mabry in Austin, Texas.

Back in the 1950s, I & my buddies used to drag the thing around the neighborhood when we played "Army". Nobody cared or batted and eye. lol

My brother still has that FBI "DEWAT" form someplace in his files.

[AK103K]

That gun, while a DEWAT, also had to be registered by '68 to be legal. If it was, it would be worth pretty close to what a gun that wasnt DEWAT'ed is worth today, and can actually be legally reactivated, sold and transferred between individuals.

[Armybrat]

Well, I guess it was illegal for about 35 years.

Eric Holder can go dig up my Dad and rap him on his knuckles with a ruler. :p

[Swing]

Minor tangent, by it may be of interest, this document (http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/NotesonWarTrophyRecords.pdf) discusses World War II War Trophy firearm records.

[AK103K]

Well, I guess it was illegal for about 35 years.
If your brother has the DEWAT forms, it very well could have been registered, and you turned over something (Im assuming for nothing) in that $20-30000 range that you could have reactivated and shot. ;)

[Armybrat]

It was donated for no compensation, with no regrets.

[MDW GUNS]

At least the officers did the right thing in a not so gun friendly state!

[Crash_Test_Dhimmi]

Another reason to set up a folding table and signs down the block from the buy back, and when you see a 20K$ weapon walking down the street, offer her a little more than the gift cards she is expecting from the buy back

[Armybrat]

Crash - some guys did that here in Austin, Texas a year or so ago when APD had a buyback.