Why no 9mm +p data in reloading manuals


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ATLDave
December 10, 2012, 10:57 AM
In the 3 reloading manuals that I have (Hornady, Speer, Lyman), plus several online sources such as powder manuf's websites, I note that +P data for .38 special is included (sometimes denoted within the .38spl section, sometimes as a separate section). However, I don't think I've seen +p 9mm data included.

Anybody know the reason? (Comments about +p no being necessary given adequate penetration, etc., can be reserved for another thread.)

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rcmodel
December 10, 2012, 12:43 PM
+P is a state of mind.
The only reason for +P (38,500 PSI) is more velocity.

Most reloading manuals show loads that can appproch, equal, or exceed 9mm +P velocity at standard pressure (35,000 PSI) or less.

For instance, Winchester PDX 124 grain +P is rated at 1,095 FPS.

Lyman #49 shows three powders that will push a 125 grain bullet 1,112, 1,119, and 1,163, at well under standard 35,000 PSI pressure.

Hodgdon shows 5 powders & loads that will do the same thing.
For instance, HS-6 will give you 1,169 FPS at less then standard pressere.


And do you really want to push your old used brass to 38,500 PSI anyway??

rc

ranger335v
December 10, 2012, 12:54 PM
IMHO, "+p" ammo for any handgun load is virtually meaningless. Speed drop-off is so rapid that anyone who thinks his impact velocity may be too low should take one more step towards his target, that ought to fix it without beating the pistol up.

ATLDave
December 10, 2012, 01:05 PM
Sigh... non-responsive.

I'm not asking whether it's a good idea. I'm asking if anyone actually knows why the reloading manual people don't publish it, given that they do publish for .38spl.

918v
December 10, 2012, 01:07 PM
The reason there's no +P data is because it isn't necessary. The reason there's +P data for the 38 Special is because there was demand for it and there was also a safety concern. +P in a 38 is a substantial pressure increase. Not so in the 9mm. In fact you'll be hard pressed to blow up your 9 with any load that fits in the case.

RandyP
December 10, 2012, 01:10 PM
I have no idea if anyone who follows this forum works in the department at those companies that make the manuals who can answer you question -

You 'could' perhaps get something more 'responsive' by calling the companies and asking them directly?

Hornady - Phone: 1-800-338-3220
Phone: 308-382-1390
Fax: 308-382-5761

Speer - Technical Services: 1-866-286-7436

Lyman - 800-225-9626
800-423-9704
860-632-2020

Oh... and if you get a response from them, let us know what they said.

ranger335v
December 10, 2012, 07:33 PM
"I'm asking if anyone actually knows why the reloading manual people don't publish it"

You raise a good question; now I have to wonder why they don't tell us why they don't publish a LOT of stuff I'd like to know.

"Sigh... non-responsive."

gamestalker
December 11, 2012, 12:03 AM
Although I don't see any data published as +P for the 9mm, Longshot and HS6 will certainly get you their, with HS6 being m favorite. I've also noticed that HS6 has a significantly lower pressure estimate than Longshot, and velocity estimates are a couple fps higher with HS6 as well. In truth, I have long considered +P to be nothing more than maximum obtainable velocity one can achieve by using the right powder for the task.

I wouldn't personally try to attain +P velocities with faster burning powders, especally with the 9mm. I have been having very good results using HS6 and Longshot. I'm currently driving a 147 gr. XTP to just under 1100 fps using either one of these powders without any issues, other than a sore wrist that is. I won't post the spoecific charge weight I'm using, as it exceeds the maximum published data by a bit.

GS

italy176
December 11, 2012, 01:26 AM
The only "+p" 9mm Luger reloading data I have ever run across is the HOT VV 1st edition data. VV lists 36kpsi data that is loaded much hotter than their current data (which no longer has pressure information).

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=563378

Clark
December 11, 2012, 04:51 AM
I was shooting at an indoor range and they other people screamed at me, "WHAT ARE YOU SHOOTING??"

I said, "Nine MM"

One guy screamed at me, "THAT'S NO NINE MM!!"

I explained, "It's handloads"

He looked at me like I had smelly gas, but it seemed to be the end of the conversation.
I think he was used to the sound of 5 gr of powder in a 9mm, not 10 gr.

evan price
December 11, 2012, 07:13 AM
I've communicated with Speer, Hornady, Hodgdon and Alliant.
They don't list +P due to liability.

I personally found a couple 9mm +P loads that I find are comparable to factory self defense ammo but I load them a lot cheaper for practice.

I worked up to them from known data and went carefully.

9mm has a lot of leeway as long as you are careful and are using strong firearms rated for +P.

Fatelvis
December 11, 2012, 11:10 AM
One guy screamed at me, "THAT'S NO NINE MM!!"

I explained, "It's handloads"

He looked at me like I had smelly gas
I look at all 9mm fans that way! Lol :neener:
By the way, did you indulge your cravings for Sour Kraut, or White Castle burgers before shooting?

ATLDave
December 11, 2012, 11:29 AM
I've communicated with Speer, Hornady, Hodgdon and Alliant.
They don't list +P due to liability.

Brilliant! Thanks for the answer.

Now, it only leaves me wondering why the "liability" concerns aren't strong enough to prevent them from listing +P .38 spl data...

It's funny, sometimes you see comments (as in this thread) that it's kind of hard to blow up a 9mm because of case capacity limitations; but some reloading manuals (like Speer, IIRC) specifically caution about the risks of loading 9mm, characterizing it as an especially sensitive round.

FWIW, all of the 9mm I load is mid-range plinking stuff. I was just curious about the data. If nothing else, I'd like to see how much extra "room" I have above the end of the standard load before +p (which all my 9mm pistols are rated for) runs out. Is there .3 gr extra there for a given powder if you count the +p "space," or is it .7gr? .1? 1.0? Can't tell, publishers won't tell me.

rcmodel
December 11, 2012, 11:58 AM
why the "liability" concerns aren't strong enough to prevent them from listing +P .38 spl data... Because when the +P rating system came along in 1974, Standard pressure .38 Spl was reduced from 18,900 CUP and +P was increased to 22,400 CUP.

Since then, standard pressure has been further reduced, as has +P.

Now, standard is 17,000 PSI, and +P is 20,000 PSI.

Standard 9mm is 35,000 PSI and +P 9mm is 38,500 PSI.

Big difference!!


Now, before we get into arguing about how you can't compare CUP & PSI.
Before 1974, standard pressure .38 Spl ammo was rated 855 FPS with a 158 grain bullet.
Today it is rated 755 FPS, and +P is rated 890 FPS.

So in effect, .38 Spl +P is giving you 35 FPS more velocity then standard pressure did in 1973.

If you are lucky and get some actually loaded to full allowable +P pressure!


The .38 Spl load data they don't publish anymore is the old 38/44 HV loads that went away in the 50's.
Some of them would put todays .357 Mag loads in the shade pressure wise.

Some of my old reloading manuals show .38 Spl 158 grain bullet data pushing 1,000 FPS.

rc

ATLDave
December 11, 2012, 12:34 PM
is 17,000 PSI, and +P is 20,000 PSI.

Standard 9mm is 35,000 PSI and +P 9mm is 38,500 PSI.

Big difference!!

Sure, but those same reloading manuals that won't list a NATO-standard 9mm load will list lots of rifle cartridges at 50k+ PSI. Or, for that matter, .357 SIG pistol cartridges at ~ 40kPSI.

To be clear, I'm not arguing with you. You've probably described what the reloading publishers are thinking. I'm just questioning the sense of it.

rcmodel
December 11, 2012, 01:24 PM
But like I was trying to point out in post #2, you can meet or exceed P+, (or NATO) velocity without getting into +P pressure by using more suitable reloading powders available to us.

We have that option.

Commercial & military ammo manufactures get there by perhaps using less suitable powder at higher pressure, because it is cheaper powder, or they don't have to use as much of it per round because they run a smaller charge of faster powder at higher pressure.

But I can see I am getting nowhere here.

rc

ATLDave
December 11, 2012, 01:36 PM
rcmodel, you're "getting nowhere" because you're trying to have a different conversation. Whether loading to +P is "necessary" is a separate matter. I'm not expressing an opinion on that here.

As for the points you raise in post #16, the loading manuals are replete with sub-optimal load data. The fact that another powder choice may allow higher velocities at lower pressures doesn't prevent them from providing data.

evan price
December 11, 2012, 09:01 PM
Dave that's why they won't publish +P data. People will push to the edge. Also there are 9mms that are not suitable for +P and they don't want blown up guns. There's a very small tolerance between oal and pressurein 9mm... a load ok at one oal will become dangerous with a small setback in oal.

ATLDave
December 12, 2012, 10:30 AM
Dave that's why they won't publish +P data. People will push to the edge. Also there are 9mms that are not suitable for +P and they don't want blown up guns. There's a very small tolerance between oal and pressurein 9mm... a load ok at one oal will become dangerous with a small setback in oal.

Well, people push to the edge in other cartridges, and there are certainly loads published for some cartridges that can blow up weaker examples of guns (.38+P, or Ruger-only .45 LC, for example). The special sensitivity of 9mm to OAL/seating depth may be the underlying explanation.

Certaindeaf
December 12, 2012, 10:40 AM
BB loads a couple +P .40's. The .40 is already at 40k before +P (no saami for +P in .40 either) and it's a weaker case than the 9.

Certaindeaf
December 12, 2012, 11:00 AM
I thought this was pretty funny..

"Major = 4 EXTRA GRAINS OF POWDER, 124gr at 1378 fps and 115gr at 1500 fps versus minor at 1000 fps for 124gr or 1140 for 115gr."

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113427

Oh, if you use that data and "rule of thumb (ha)", you are doing so at your own risk, of course.

RandyP
December 12, 2012, 11:34 AM
ATLDave -

You raise interesting questions that really no one here can answer to your satisfaction or with any certainty as to the motivations of various publishing companies.

Have you tried to get answers from them directly? It seems like the easiest and most rewarding route? It does make for lively internet conversation anyway - lol

Bovice
December 12, 2012, 12:16 PM
RC isn't "not" answering your question or telling you not to use +P 9mm. Here is what he's telling you.

There is no logical reason to load your cases to a specific pressure. +P is 38.5k psi, right? The purpose of commercial +P ammo is to squeeze more velocity by boosting pressure.

As a reloader, if you want "+P performance", all you have to do is choose a slower burning powder. You attain +P velocities but stay in the standard pressure zone. Therefore you do not need +P data. You can get there with standard pressure using a suitable powder.

ATLDave
December 12, 2012, 05:03 PM
RC isn't "not" answering your question or telling you not to use +P 9mm. Here is what he's telling you.

There is no logical reason to load your cases to a specific pressure. +P is 38.5k psi, right? The purpose of commercial +P ammo is to squeeze more velocity by boosting pressure.

As a reloader, if you want "+P performance", all you have to do is choose a slower burning powder. You attain +P velocities but stay in the standard pressure zone. Therefore you do not need +P data. You can get there with standard pressure using a suitable powder.

Bovice, sometimes people are curious about things for non-functional reasons.

Setting that aside, there's a practical use for +p data even if I never plan to load to it. If I have a powder that throws +/-.2gn, and a pistol rated for +p, knowing that +p tops out at only .1gr more than non+p would tell me not to try to load to non+p max. I look at +P .38 spl data when loading to non+P levels to give me a sense of how much safety margin I have. I would like to have the same information for 9mm.

Finally, and this is NOT my motivation, I understand that powder A may produce velocities at 36k that powder B can't touch until 38k. But what about the velocities of powder A at 38k?

But regardless of the reason for my question, a response of "you don't need that information" is not responsive. There are plenty of threads on the subject of whether +p 9mm is a good idea. This isn't one of them.

Kachok
December 12, 2012, 07:03 PM
Don't need higher pressures, there are published loads for most handgun calibers usig Longshot that exceed the performance of factory +P without the higher presures. My 180gr 40 S&W feels like a 44 mag with a full 8gr charge, and my 9mm slings heavy 147gr XTP bullet over 1,000fps without a hint of excess pressure at 4.7gr. And to think that was designed as a shotgun powder :)
Despite being recommended pressure I advise working them up because they are real screamers and you slide might need a stiffer spring to handle the extra umph.

gamestalker
December 13, 2012, 12:14 AM
Certaindeaf, FYI the .40 has a SAAMI max PSI of 35K, not 40K.

GS

1SOW
December 13, 2012, 03:08 AM
But regardless of the reason for my question, a response of "you don't need that information" is not responsive. There are plenty of threads on the subject of whether +p 9mm is a good idea. This isn't one of them.

Actually it is responsive. Bullet manufacturers often publish the bullet speeds for +P loads. The powder is irrevelant. Any powder that will push the bullet to that published speed will give the same bullet performance as the +P load. The +P rating has nothing to do with bullet speed.

The published high end "bullet speeds" can be found for each commercially available powder. If your powder's data doesn't give the speed you want, change powder.

JMO: Manufacturers don't publish +P loads in 9mm and .380 because very small loading mistakes can cause them and the shooter big trouble. There is a little more room for error in the bigger cases like the 38 special-357 mag. The civil "courtrooms" have caused this more and more cautious approach by manufacturers. I don't blame them.

Reefinmike
December 13, 2012, 03:09 AM
I only need my loads powerful enough to make their way through a piece of construction paper and a piece of cardboard :rolleyes:

but im sure its a liability issue. reloading is for accurate paper punching and steel slapping. I dont want to punish myself and I let federal *cringe*- make my hotter carry ammo(though I do really like their brass)

ATLDave
December 13, 2012, 10:37 AM
1SOW, see post #24 for reasons that the information would still be worthwhile.

1SOW
December 13, 2012, 06:49 PM
Dave: Setting that aside, there's a practical use for +p data even if I never plan to load to it. If I have a powder that throws +/-.2gn, and a pistol rated for +p, knowing that +p tops out at only .1gr more than non+p would tell me not to try to load to non+p max.

If I were loading to within ".1-.2 grs of max load with a med-fast burn-rate powder" , I would measure every load. If I were loading with a slower burn rate powder, I would work up to that max. checking for signs of high pressures and continue trusting the powder measure. BTJM!

My SD load 124gr @ 1200'/sec out of a 3.6" bbl uses n340, but my powder measure (Lee Discs) is never .1gr off with this type of powder. With larger/flake powder granule size, I'd measure every load. Not harsh shooting and no signs of over-pressure. Good-to-go.

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