Why so much disdain for the .25 acp?


PDA






Guvnor
December 10, 2012, 11:02 AM
I'm not trying to stir up trouble, just wanted to have a discussion about this. My wife and I were recently shopping around looking at small handguns at local gun shops. She is tiny with small hands, and has little to no firearms experience other than the times I have brought her shooting with me. We were essentially looking for a small, light, low recoil pistol that she could get confident with and keep by the bedside until she is comfortable moving up in caliber.

Well at practically every shop we visited, when I asked to see a .25 acp from the case like a beretta, taurus, baby browning, etc. they were basically like "oh you don't want that" and proceeded to tell me what a horrible choice it would be and how useless the round is. I thought this was a bit condescending.

Also on many gun discussion sites you will find very little love for the .25 acp. "If somebody shot me with one, id get mad" type comments. People usually say the .22lr is way better. I'm starting to think the little round gets ragged on unfairly. I think its unfair because when you look at the numbers, from identical guns with very short barrels, the .22lr and .25 acp are putting out almost the same numbers as far as energy (around 60-70 ft lbs.) I noticed alot of people mistakenly cite the .22lr energy from a rifle length barrel (usually around 130 ft. lbs.) when comparing to the .25 acp.

There are lots of anecdotal stories of .25 acp bouncing off someone's forehead, or failing to penetrate a leather jacket, etc. But I have a feeling that this reputation comes from the crappy "Saturday night special" .25's that flooded the market after the '68 gun control act. Perhaps these guns had poorly manufactured bores with loose tolerances which resulted in lower muzzle velocities? Anyway, brassfetcher tested a quality .25 acp gun (beretta 21a) and it achieved advertised velocity and penetrated 15 inches of gelatin with ball ammo. http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1715.htm

Now please note that I am NOT trying to say that the .25 acp is an effective stopper, nor am I trying to pretend that its a good defense round.. But it aint no airsoft gun either like some would lead you to beleive. Lets remember why John Browning designed this round, to be a more reliable alternative to the .22lr in pocket sized pistols. I think it serves this purpose fairly well.

My wife ended up choosing the Ruger LCR .22lr revolver, but I felt compelled to write this anyways. I appreciate the history of this little round and one of my dream guns I would love to have is an original Baby Browning. My great grandfather was a police officer who's off-duty carry gun was a Colt 1908 vest pocket .25 acp. He passed it on to my grandfather (another cop) who also carried it off duty until the 1970's. We still have it in the family.

If you enjoyed reading about "Why so much disdain for the .25 acp?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
otasan56
December 10, 2012, 11:23 AM
That is why Glock makes Model 26, 27, and 36. Your wife will probably fit all three of her non-trigger fingers on the grip of these light-weight handguns. Try them out, for they are in serious calibers. Glock 26= 9mm, G27= .40 S&W, G36 = .45 ACP. For your petite wife I'd recommend the G26, or even a G19. I certainly do not recommend the .25 ACP. They have very minimal hitting power.

Bikewer
December 10, 2012, 11:47 AM
The typically-tiny .25 pistols have the virtue of being small, but that's about it. Difficult to shoot with any accuracy, they are meant for "belly-to-belly" range.

The round, however dressed up, is similar to .22 LR in that it can certainly be deadly but has very little in the way of shock effect.....
As far as a defensive round it falls into "not recommended" category. Little help to the victim if the attacker dies hours later on the operating table.

Stories are many; I recall the one about the Chicago woman who stormed into the local precinct station to demand the arrest of her husband. When the desk sergeant asked why, she said "he shot me!" and collapsed.
She had been shot with seven rounds of .25 ACP, and had walked two blocks to the police station before expiring....

Dentite
December 10, 2012, 11:55 AM
Now please note that I am NOT trying to say that the .25 acp is an effective stopper, nor am I trying to pretend that its a good defense round

Seems like you answered your own question.

If you are buying a firearm for your wife to keep by the bedside then wouldn't you want her to have something that is a good defense round?

If it's going to be bedside, there's no point in it being small and concealable.

Something that would be very easy for her to manage and offer more firepower would be a .22LR RIFLE with 10+ rounds in it. No recoil, much easier to hit your target, etc.

After putting a few magazines through both I would be very surprised if your wife chose the .25.

My wife is petite but it only took about two shooting sessions starting with .22LR for her work up to be able to handle more powerful riles, pistols, shotguns.

If you are looking for a handgun for self defense at home I would look at a full size (K frame etc) .38 special with a 4" or larger barrel. Very light recoil IMO.

Also a full sized 9mm pistol will tend to be light recoiling.

Is .25 worthless? No, but as you yourself mentioned there are better options.

I would guess if you took your wife to a range with a pocket sized .25 auto and a full size 9mm she'll get better accuracy and probably less percieved recoil from the 9mm.

leadchucker
December 10, 2012, 11:56 AM
I have been told more than once that if you shoot someone with a .25, all you'll do is make him mad.

Why futz with the .25 when you can have a 380 in the same sized package? The Ruger LCP is every bit as compact as any .25 semi.

Kiln
December 10, 2012, 11:59 AM
The .25acp is not very effective when it comes to defense but .22lr isn't any better. You are correct that the performance is very similar from short barrels with a couple of points going to the .25acp for more reliable priming and feeding.

The .25acp gets an unfair reputation because of people who repeat stories they read online and back it with a statement like: "I had a buddy who was a coroner" or "I heard it from a cop" so that it absolutely has to be true.

I had a quarter for every time I read a post online about somebody tossing a Raven into a lake to save the next guy from owning it I'd be able to stop working for a living. I find it hard to believe that 20 guys all decided to toss their Ravens into lakes. If they honestly did then they don't need to own a gun at all because that is one of the most irresponsible ways I can think of to dispose of a firearm and is just slightly better than tossing it into a playground full of second graders.

There are stories of the .25acp glancing off of skulls but there are similar stories about tons of more powerful calibers that simply struck at the wrong angle and did exactly the same thing.

Anybody who quotes the "if I got shot and I found out about it" line is just doing so for comedy reasons and for some reason are always unwilling to let you test if they'll notice a teensy weensy little shot to the leg from the anemic .25acp round.

Headshots from the .25acp kill at close range. Ask this guy who shot and killed 7000 people with .25acp pistols: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Blokhin

SaxonPig
December 10, 2012, 11:59 AM
So? I saw a skinny guy run 100 yards with 4 rounds of 45 ACP in his torso. My friend tells me of a guy who walked to an aid station in Vietnam after taking a 23mm shell through the belly. Others collapse and die after one hit from a 22 to the arm (true story).

Fact is the 25 ACP is fairly weak. Often (not always) the guns are cheaply made imports. They are hard to shoot. They have awful sights. They are not accurate. They are what they are: highly concealable and meant to be used at arm's length. There are better choices. If a 25 was all I had then that's all I had.

highlander 5
December 10, 2012, 12:02 PM
25 acp wouldn't be my choice for SD but in a pinch better than a sharp stick. My oppinion of the 25 auto is it's the world's most useless round. You cna get a 22RF in a similar package which would be cheaper to shoot on a regular basis. Though expensive Seacamp makes a 32 auto and I believe a 380 in a pistol that is close in size to most 25 autos.
Not saying I would want to be shot by one but there are much better choices out there

Guvnor
December 10, 2012, 12:10 PM
To further explain the wifes's choice, she hates recoil and is still very gun shy. We were shopping for mouse guns and ended up getting the LCR because it doesn't intimidate her and she would be willing to practice with it. What good is a 9mm or .45 that she's afraid to shoot? When she is proficient with the .22 and fully comfortable around firearms she will be ready to move up. Would you recommend a 1600cc, 700 pound Harley Davidson for a first motorcyle too?

481
December 10, 2012, 12:11 PM
I'm not trying to stir up trouble, just wanted to have a discussion about this. My wife and I were recently shopping around looking at small handguns at local gun shops. She is tiny with small hands, and has little to no firearms experience other than the times I have brought her shooting with me. We were essentially looking for a small, light, low recoil pistol that she could get confident with and keep by the bedside until she is comfortable moving up in caliber.

Well at practically every shop we visited, when I asked to see a .25 acp from the case like a beretta, taurus, baby browning, etc. they were basically like "oh you don't want that" and proceeded to tell me what a horrible choice it would be and how useless the round is. I thought this was a bit condescending.

Also on many gun discussion sites you will find very little love for the .25 acp. "If somebody shot me with one, id get mad" type comments. People usually say the .22lr is way better. I'm starting to think the little round gets ragged on unfairly. I think its unfair because when you look at the numbers, from identical guns with very short barrels, the .22lr and .25 acp are putting out almost the same numbers as far as energy (around 60-70 ft lbs.) I noticed alot of people mistakenly cite the .22lr energy from a rifle length barrel (usually around 130 ft. lbs.) when comparing to the .25 acp.

There are lots of anecdotal stories of .25 acp bouncing off someone's forehead, or failing to penetrate a leather jacket, etc. But I have a feeling that this reputation comes from the crappy "Saturday night special" .25's that flooded the market after the '68 gun control act. Perhaps these guns had poorly manufactured bores with loose tolerances which resulted in lower muzzle velocities? Anyway, brassfetcher tested a quality .25 acp gun (beretta 21a) and it achieved advertised velocity and penetrated 15 inches of gelatin with ball ammo. http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1715.htm

Now please note that I am NOT trying to say that the .25 acp is an effective stopper, nor am I trying to pretend that its a good defense round.. But it aint no airsoft gun either like some would lead you to beleive. Lets remember why John Browning designed this round, to be a more reliable alternative to the .22lr in pocket sized pistols. I think it serves this purpose fairly well.

My wife ended up choosing the Ruger LCR .22lr revolver, but I felt compelled to write this anyways. I appreciate the history of this little round and one of my dream guns I would love to have is an original Baby Browning. My great grandfather was a police officer who's off-duty carry gun was a Colt 1908 vest pocket .25 acp. He passed it on to my grandfather (another cop) who also carried it off duty until the 1970's. We still have it in the family.

I think that the "disdain" that most have for the .25ACP comes from the fact that while the .251" 50gr FMJ @ 750fps might penetrate deep enough, it is awfully light and suffers deflection more easily (I believe that the late Jim Cirillo called it "flight integrity) than the larger service calibers. Even with decent penetration it does very little damage (permanent crush cavity) along the way as can be seen by the test done by brassfetcher that you referenced. JHPs in the caliber are also notorious for failing to expand and the fact that the manufacturers aren't pursuing its development as fervently as the larger calibers condemns it even moreso. For a rather modest weight/size penalty one can find a subcompact pistol chambered in a larger caliber (.32, .380, 9mm).

Of course, there is always the possibility of making a "lucky shot" with the diminuitive little round, but as the saying goes, "I'd rather be 'good' than 'lucky'".

At any rate, I am pleased to hear that your wife found something that she is comfortable with.

Zeke/PA
December 10, 2012, 12:33 PM
All fine and dandy BUT: I'll stick with my .357 or my 9 Mike!

MedWheeler
December 10, 2012, 12:44 PM
I have been told more than once that if you shoot someone with a .25, all you'll do is make him mad.

This idea is ridiculous, and refuses to die. There is maybe one criminal attack committed in the US each year by someone who would soldier on against a well-executed .22LR or .25ACP defense, but would cease to be a threat against a 9mm defense. Yes, they might "get mad", and there are countless stories where someone knows a guy who knows a guy who shot a guy (or who was the guy actually shot) and the guy shot ran fifteen miles uphill, barefoot, in the snow, to get to the ER. But, they still stopped doing whatever it was they were doing that got them shot in the first place, and that's what counts. People also point to cases in which crazed-on-whatever people are shot eleventy-billion times by police and still take their time dropping. That's a different situation; the reason cops shoot these people so many times is because they are obligated to stick around to do so. We're not. Self-extraction, in addition to defensive-fire, is almost always gonna be on the table. Too many forget that.

To say that a .25 is only capable of "making someone mad" is to deny its ability to actually kill, or cause grievous bodiliy injury to a person. If that were true, it would not be even legal to use your own firearm against someone accosting you with one. After all, "making you mad" isn't justification for the use of deadly force.

While I'll never disparage anyone who chooses to carry such a weapon, I don't simply because I have stronger options available that I can comfortably handle. I agree that one should carry the most powerful, and most practical, weapon for defense they can manage. But it doesn't mean they will. After all, is each and every one of us driving the latest version of the safest vehicle available, and in the safest manner, at all times while out on the road? I know I'm not.

Why futz with the .25 when you can have a 380 in the same sized package? The Ruger LCP is every bit as compact as any .25 semi

The OP was about handling (recoil/kick) more than about actual bullet size and weight. There are no .25ACP handguns I can think of that feel "just like the LCP" when fired. There is even a substantial difference between the feel of a .32ACP pistol and a nearly-identical one in .380ACP.

mljdeckard
December 10, 2012, 12:45 PM
We haven't done this in....hours.

There are no guarantees. EVER. But there are degrees of likelihood. All handguns are inferior, but this is at the bottom of the list. At least .22s come in guns that make it more viable for shootability. With my conversion kit I can dump 15 rounds in a few seconds pretty accurately. I think a .25 is a nose gun.

greyeyezz
December 10, 2012, 12:55 PM
Difficult to shoot with any accuracy

First time shooting my bobcat at 20 feet. I hadn't even figured out the trigger nor sights in this first 27 rounds.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/greyeyezz/P1030676.jpg

I have been told more than once that if you shoot someone with a .25, all you'll do is make him mad.

.25 FMJ gets 15 inches of penetration in gel.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1715.htm

I shot an old refrigerator in my barn at about 20 feet multiple times and every round went inside. If you put nine rounds of FMJ center mass I would bet that person to be too dead to be mad. When I hear of rounds bouncing off someone's head or stopping in a jacket I chalk it up as internet folklore.

I am not advocating the use of .25ACP but for some folks whether being elderly, physically limited or in a position where deep concealment is a factor the .25 is not as useless as its made out to be.

788Ham
December 10, 2012, 12:56 PM
What about a .32 auto, or a 7.65 Browning auto? They'd at least have more power than the puny .25. ! A rock would be better than that thing. IMHO

smalls
December 10, 2012, 01:07 PM
To further explain the wifes's choice, she hates recoil and is still very gun shy. We were shopping for mouse guns and ended up getting the LCR because it doesn't intimidate her and she would be willing to practice with it. What good is a 9mm or .45 that she's afraid to shoot? When she is proficient with the .22 and fully comfortable around firearms she will be ready to move up. Would you recommend a 1600cc, 700 pound Harley Davidson for a first motorcyle too?

This doesn't make any sense. If she's gun shy, and is recoil sensitive, then stay away from mouse guns. They aren't easier to shoot.

If she has small hands, look for medium sized single stack guns. Small guns are designed to be very concealable, but give up a lot, such as sights and low recoil.

Ever wonder why there aren't full sized .25's? The .25's are the "I'm wearing a dress and can't conceal my (whatever). It's not an ideal caliber, but at least I have a gun on me" type of guns.

mgmorden
December 10, 2012, 01:13 PM
This doesn't make any sense. If she's gun shy, and is recoil sensitive, then stay away from mouse guns. They aren't easier to shoot.

That's it in a nutshell. Get her a larger gun in a relatively mild chambering and the recoil will be reduced but with far better defensive results than .25ACP.

I really wouldn't mind owning a .25ACP for plinking and such, but I'd never dream of using one in any situation where the stakes were any higher than "Did I poke a hole on the paper or not?"

otasan56
December 10, 2012, 01:21 PM
was never a serious attempt at a self-defense round. Get a 9mm Auto, for starters, and move up to a .40S&W if you desire. Self-defense is a very serious discussion. Get serious with your gun choice.

Guvnor
December 10, 2012, 01:26 PM
some of you guys should re-read my entire original post. Never once did I advocate the .25 as a good choice for a defense round. Just was trying to dispel the silly notion that its completely worthless. Geez.

MagicD
December 10, 2012, 01:39 PM
The caliber wars are always entertaining. Simple fact ...50 grains of metal with 15 inches of known ballistic gel penetration striking you between the breast pockets or above your Adams apple will send you to the medical examiner or ICU if your Very lucky. I've seen a mortal wound from a groin shot that punched a through and through hole in the femoral artery when one drunk decided to shoot a guy's ba**s off in bar disagreement.
Not a real contender for cartridge hall of fame but
.25 acp is not a joke.

otasan56
December 10, 2012, 01:47 PM
that the .25 ACP can kill. It is just that the target zone is so small with the .25. I can hit a felon in the liver with my Glock 17 9mm +p+ JHP, and it will drop the felon far faster than a similar hit with a .25. To drop someone with a .25 ACP, one has to hit an opponent right in the open mouth or nose - small targets for any pistol.

fastbolt
December 10, 2012, 01:58 PM
Having watched a fair number of diminutive .22's, .25's, .32's & .380's come through courses-of-fire over the years that I've worked as a firearms instructor, I've seen significantly more feeding stoppages and general functioning problems exhibited by the .22's & .25's than the larger .32's & .380's.

The .22's do seem to have the added issues to consider of ammunition quality, consistent ignition, bullet seating, etc.

Now please note that I am NOT trying to say that the .25 acp is an effective stopper, nor am I trying to pretend that its a good defense round..

So then, what exactly are you considering the relative "worth" of the cartridge to be, if it's not an "effective stopper" or a "good defense" round?

BTW, when I was a much younger cop I bought one of those budget "European .25's" through one of the guys who had a FFL. It was more of a novalty purchase being made by several guys, due to the really low cost. (A few of us also bought some early Jennings .22's for the same reason. :eek:)

I came across it in the bottom of my gun safe a while back. As I recall, I lost interest in it after it started to exhibit fairly frequent feeding & ejection problems after being fired for a little over 100 rounds.

I can see someone having an interest in a very nicely made .25, like the Seecamp LWS .25 pistol. I know another instructor who owns a couple Seecamp pistols. After having shot his, I'd never want to own them. He liked them for their ease of pocket carry, especially the .32 model, and liked to "match" it to his Rolex :scrutiny:... but whenever he thought he might actually need a smaller, pocketable off-duty weapon, he pocketed a S&W 5-shot J-frame.

I don't pretend to have an answer to your implied question, but it does sort of sound like you did indeed answer your own question regarding the quoted comment. ;)

pikid89
December 10, 2012, 02:07 PM
otasan56, unless you have xray vision, I dont think shooting for the liver will do you much good. When it comes to gut shots any large diameter bullet will do more damage...obviously a +P+ 9mm will do more damage to someone than a .25, no matter where you hit him...i think that goes without saying

Recommending a .40 for someone who is totally inexperienced with guns shows that you dont really understand what its like to teach a complete novice how to shoot...

a .25 does not NEED to hit in an open mouth to kill, tests show that the .25 will penetrate 15 inches in gel...so i think at fighting distance, quality .25 ammo in a quality gun shouldnt have much trouble going through rib bones or whatever

SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE
December 10, 2012, 02:31 PM
If your wife is that sensitive to recoil , I think you made an excellent choice with the 8 shot LCR in .22 lr . One advantage a .25 has over 22 lr is a more reliable ignition system . In an auto a misfire has to be cleared , with your revolver, she can just pull the trigger again ! Bring her along at her own pace and hopefully she will move up to a larger caliber , but until then keep premium .22 lr ammo in her little Ruger ! I prefer the CCI mini mags ! Kevin

Bohemus
December 10, 2012, 02:41 PM
While I prefer my 9mm Luger Kahr P9, I would rather have CZ92 with 8x 6,35mm Browning than bare hands.
6,35 can be spot stopper if you hit important place.
If your wife wants to carry .25ACP pistol its much better than being anti-gun. She may get used to and get bigger pistol in future, but until then she will be better off with .25ACP.

leadchucker
December 10, 2012, 02:42 PM
This idea is ridiculous, and refuses to die. ...
To say that a .25 is only capable of "making someone mad" is to deny its ability to actually kill, or cause grievous bodiliy injury to a person...

You're going to have to learn not to be so sensitive, especially to a little tongue-in-cheek humor. You take yourself too seriously. The fact that a .25 can kill is obvious, and no indignant explanation from you is required.

As to the LCP/380 suggestion, it still stands. A 380 round will be considerably more effective than a .25 round. And its recoil is still quite mild compared to anything bigger or more powerful

otasan56
December 10, 2012, 02:52 PM
The cartridges ability to kill is not what matters here. It is the ability to drop an opponent and cease his homicidal functions immediately. Believe me I wont be aiming for the liver with my G17 9mmP. I'll be hitting the homicidal gunman in the forehead, nose, or open mouth. I won't be aiming for the heart - felons can still shoot and kill with a damaged heart.

Guvnor
December 10, 2012, 03:06 PM
Unfortunately this topic has turned into a bit of a pissing match...which is not what I intended. I was just looking to have a discussion on the .25 and how and why it got such a bad rep and why its always the butt of bad jokes. its a cartridge with a rich history over the past century. I obviously do not advocate the .25 (or a .22 for that matter) as a primary home defense gun, unless that's all you had or could handle.

*Mods, my apologies for opening a can of worms.*

otasan56
December 10, 2012, 03:09 PM
Just a friendly exchange of ideas about a controversial cartridge. Some people must be informed about the capabilities of this old cartridge. :D

The Lone Haranguer
December 10, 2012, 03:10 PM
I have no disdain for it, but for self defense, why handicap yourself when so many other options are available? Not that the .25 doesn't have a niche. I could see a little Beretta 950, Colt vest pocket or Baby Browning as a BUG, for example. Or, for that matter, just plain fun.

JR47
December 10, 2012, 03:23 PM
I do NOT intend to DROP anyone with a handgun. I intend to make them stop attempting to harm me. Anyone throwing out such trash-talk is asking to be prosecuted.

The .25 ACP was never intended to be a service round. It's funny how, after nearly a century of protecting citizens, today we seem to think that it's ineffective.

In many cases, according to experts, the simple production of a gun into a scenario will stop aggressive action. Then, MOST crooks won't hang around to trade fire with anyone. If injured, they need medical attention, and hospitals are required by law to report them.

Note that, in the Armed Citizen columns of the NRA publications, there are many stories of people, armed with "less than effective", who somehow manage to run off, or kill, people attempting to harm them.

If the horror stories, or smug statements actually held any truth, one would never read about a .22 pistol, or a .25 ACP pistol, successfully defending a citizen.

Instead of insisting that the person describing his wife's abilities ignore her complaints and wishes, and buy "X" or "Y", perhaps we should try to work with what is presented. A .25 ACP Beretta is hardly a "junk gun". Perhaps she could be talked into a 3032 Tomcat, instead. The .32 ACP is capable of stopping people during war-time, on a battlefield. While it, once again, just doesn't seem to fit into chairborn commando's opinion of "good enough", that is hardly important.

If recoil is an issue, try having her hold, then shoot, a Colt Mustang, or the Sig P238. Both of these are locked-breech guns, and metal framed. They mitigate recoil nicely. They are also small enough for a less than strong set of wrists to handle.

The idea that 9x19 is the minimum "effective round" is nice, but really simplistic. If the shooter cannot handle the gun's recoil, size, and weight, they will not be accurate. Accuracy, not caliber, controls who walks away, and who is "dropped".:)

otasan56
December 10, 2012, 03:25 PM
BUG? It is more of a LDG (latch ditch gun). I'd have two or more serious handguns ahead of it.

jimbo555
December 10, 2012, 04:08 PM
Guvnor,when your Grandfather carried his 25 as a backup they didn't have a keltec p3at or a ruger lcp or he would have chosen one of them. 380's and even 32's were much larger and heavier in those days,and it made the 25's a more viable pocket choice. Not so today!

pikid89
December 10, 2012, 05:57 PM
Otasan, im not sure why you seem to think a .25 in not a "serious" gun...any gun that throws a hunk of lead fast enough to penetrate bodily tissue is a "serious" gun...if the lady wants to carry a .25, then she should carry a .25...the .25 is a deadly bullet, as proven by lots of dead badguys over the years

I agree that there are lots more "better" rounds out there, but the .25 is nothing to try and admonish someone for carrying. Plenty of people carry .22s and dont catch the flak that .25s get.

"gimme your money....oh crap a gun!!, oh wait thats a .25...gimme your money"
-----No Bad Guy EVER

Tcruse
December 10, 2012, 07:05 PM
I am not so sure that the .22LR might not be a better choice. The following is from one study that has been published:
25ACP

# of people shot - 68
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 25%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.2
% of people who were not incapacitated - 35%
One-shot-stop % - 30%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 62%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 49%

.22 (short, long and long rifle)

# of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%

Looks like a good .22LR with one of the high velocity hp bullets might be a better choice.

Fotno
December 10, 2012, 07:20 PM
To further explain the wifes's choice, she hates recoil and is still very gun shy. We were shopping for mouse guns and ended up getting the LCR because it doesn't intimidate her and she would be willing to practice with it. What good is a 9mm or .45 that she's afraid to shoot? When she is proficient with the .22 and fully comfortable around firearms she will be ready to move up. Would you recommend a 1600cc, 700 pound Harley Davidson for a first motorcyle too?

I think what many of the responders are trying to say, is that while a .25 auto may be one of the least imposing of the weapon choices out there, it's not necessarily the lightest recoiling; and it's certainly had a questionable history as a defensive round.

Recoil Sensitivity: There are really two basic types of recoil sensitivity, physical and psychological. If your wife is physically sensitive to recoil - in that it's painful to her - there may be nothing anyone can do to help. Because of certain physical limitations, some folks simply don't have the ability to shoot a firearm. If it's a psychological sensitivity, training and exposure to more different types of firearms and shooting can make all the difference.

Recoil itself: A smaller handgun chambered in a lighter caliber does not necessarily equal less felt recoil. Some of the stiffest recoiling handguns out there, are harsher by virtue of their lightness. A steel framed revolver will produce less felt recoil than a alloyed framed gun in the same caliber. Sometimes a slighter larger, heavier gun is the easiest to shoot well. When my wife wanted to learn to shoot, we started with a pellet rifle, moved to a .22 caliber handgun, and then a .38 revolver. She now has her own Glock 19 - her choice - and she is very proficient with it.

Good luck in your search.

Plan2Live
December 10, 2012, 07:25 PM
I can hit a felon in the liver with my Glock 17 9mm +p+ JHPWow! Is G-lock the only pistol that is capable of firing 9mm+P+ ammo? :banghead:

For every story of a .25 failing to stop a threat there is a counter-story where it does. An Attorney friend of mine recently and successfully argued a case of two drug dealers shooting it out. Bad Guy #1 pulled a G-lock 9mm on BG #2, fired and missed, whereupon BG #2 grabbed his Lorcin .25 and shot BG #1 in the heart. BG #1 dropped his G-lock, stumbled back clutching his chest, and exanguinated. Lorcin 1, G-lock 0. :what:

Kiln
December 10, 2012, 08:17 PM
You're going to have to learn not to be so sensitive, especially to a little tongue-in-cheek humor. You take yourself too seriously. The fact that a .25 can kill is obvious, and no indignant explanation from you is required.
What is annoying is that when somebody comes online for information about the .25acp they see all that "humor" (it is also misinformation) about how the .25acp will bounce off of the average human being without injuring him and then they go around repeating it everywhere afterwards.

Without fail somebody makes that stupid comment at some point in a .25acp thread every time and it just isn't true.

At one point in time the Raven MP25 was one of the most used guns for murder in the country. That tells me that the little .25acp, while not ideal, does what it is supposed to do.

leadchucker
December 10, 2012, 08:40 PM
Okay, no further jokes about the .25 from me, just information. Any firearm is potentially lethal. We all know that, or at least we should.

What may be more pertinent here is the round's ability to end a potential threat in a self defense situation. If you can be sure you can keep a cool head and place your shot accurately, you can likely end the threat with a .25. That said, you can also just as likely end the threat with a .22. If you're really good, you might even be able to do it with a fair sized rock.

However, if you're like the vast majority of us, you just might not be able to center the shot on a vital spot, especially in a high stress situation. In that case, yes, the attacker may well die - in a few hours or days, but in the meantime, he is still likely to be quite able to do you harm.

A larger, more powerful round is going to be a bit more forgiving of an imperfectly placed shot, and as has been mentioned, likely has some additional added shock effect.

Kiln
December 10, 2012, 09:55 PM
Okay, no further jokes about the .25 from me, just information. Any firearm is potentially lethal. We all know that, or at least we should.

What may be more pertinent here is the round's ability to end a potential threat in a self defense situation. If you can be sure you can keep a cool head and place your shot accurately, you can likely end the threat with a .25. That said, you can also just as likely end the threat with a .22. If you're really good, you might even be able to do it with a fair sized rock.

However, if you're like the vast majority of us, you just might not be able to center the shot on a vital spot, especially in a high stress situation. In that case, yes, the attacker may well die - in a few hours or days, but in the meantime, he is still likely to be quite able to do you harm.

A larger, more powerful round is going to be a bit more forgiving of an imperfectly placed shot, and as has been mentioned, likely has some additional added shock effect.
I agree with all that you said and wasn't debating that larger calibers aren't better. I was just saying that I could live without seeing "if I got shot with a .25 and found out about it" jokes and so could the whole wide interwebs.

I wasn't directing my comment specifically at anyone, just a generalization so don't feel like I'm attacking you.

Jaymo
December 10, 2012, 09:55 PM
Penetrating gel is completely different from penetrating bone.
Likewise, executing a restrained prisoner with a shot to the base of the skull is different from a center mass shot on a violent attacker.

mr.trooper
December 10, 2012, 09:58 PM
Most people need something to look down on.

Hating the 25 makes them feel superior, and facts need not interject.

rookorami
December 10, 2012, 10:19 PM
You have a good point Med, it seems people forget about their duty to retreat if possible in a defensive situation.

Kiln
December 10, 2012, 10:23 PM
Penetrating gel is completely different from penetrating bone.
Likewise, executing a restrained prisoner with a shot to the base of the skull is different from a center mass shot on a violent attacker.
My point with the execution post was to show that the absolute internet knowledge that says the .25acp won't even penetrate the skull is a huge load of crap. Restrained or not, headshots did the trick.

MedWheeler
December 10, 2012, 10:27 PM
Leadchucker writes: You're going to have to learn not to be so sensitive, especially to a little tongue-in-cheek humor. You take yourself too seriously. The fact that a .25 can kill is obvious, and no indignant explanation from you is required.

There is nothing "tongue-in-cheek" about an indignant condescending attitude that crops up in every thread in which the use of any caliber below 9mm for self-defense comes up. It's old already, beat to death. I don't know; maybe you haven't been around long enough to have grown weary of hearing it.

Stop and think: you weren't admitting that you felt the same way (that being shot with a .25 will only make one mad); you were only quoting what you've "been told many times", as you put it. What I was attacking was the message, not the messenger. Perhaps the messenger should try not to be so sensitive.

And while you stick to your point on the ".380 micro-pistols are way more easy to shoot and control", I'll stick to my point on combining a firearms-defense with the concept of self-extraction as well.

greyeyezz
December 10, 2012, 10:33 PM
If this caliber was as hot as the topic.......................

Teachu2
December 10, 2012, 10:45 PM
some of you guys should re-read my entire original post. Never once did I advocate the .25 as a good choice for a defense round. Just was trying to dispel the silly notion that its completely worthless. Geez.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It's not completely worthless, just worth less than nearly any other current-production caliber. It's the peso of pistols.

481
December 10, 2012, 10:51 PM
If this caliber was as hot as the topic.......................
It might very well be.

Domestic production of the .25ACP continues to this day and the major manfacturers (Winchester, Federal, Remington, etc.) wouldn't be making it if somebody wasn't buying it.

Kiln
December 10, 2012, 10:53 PM
It's not completely worthless, just worth less than nearly any other current-production caliber. It's the peso of pistols.
Their incredibly compact size is what they're useful for. The Kel Tec P32 isn't even as tiny as a Bauer or similar steel .25acp pistol.

They're good for when you need a gun but can't carry even an P3AT sized gun easily. The Browning or Bauer .25acp can be hidden on your person extremely easily. There are lots of negatives to carrying a .25 caliber pistol but they're not nearly as bad as some people seem to believe.

TimboKhan
December 10, 2012, 11:43 PM
This needs to calm down some, or its getting closed, which i am already tempted to do. Getting this fired up about a situationally useful but generally marginal cartridge is goofy.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

TennJed
December 10, 2012, 11:43 PM
BTW good choice in the Ruger LCR 22lr. That is what my wife uses

nwilliams
December 10, 2012, 11:45 PM
I'd never choose to carry a .25 for personal protection if I had other options available to me.

That said I'd rather be armed with a .25 than to not be armed at all if I felt my life was in danger. It may not stop an attacker but it might slow them down and buy me time if nothing else.

Preacher.
December 11, 2012, 02:06 AM
25 would not be my choice at all. I'd prefer a 22 LR or 22 Mag all day before the 25. That is just my personal preference. The 380 should make a nice small caliber gun for your wife. Just my .02 on the issue.

cfullgraf
December 11, 2012, 08:54 AM
My wife ended up choosing the Ruger LCR .22lr revolver, but I felt compelled to write this anyways. I appreciate the history of this little round and one of my dream guns I would love to have is an original Baby Browning. My great grandfather was a police officer who's off-duty carry gun was a Colt 1908 vest pocket .25 acp. He passed it on to my grandfather (another cop) who also carried it off duty until the 1970's. We still have it in the family.

I will agree, the LCR is probably a god choice for your wife. With the reasonable cost of 22LR ammunition, she will shoot it more for practice and maybe desire to try something larger.

As for the 25ACP, you kind of answered the question with this last paragraph. The 25 ACP is a back up, easy concealment firearm to diffuse close encounters which it seems is what your great grandfather and grand father were using their 25 ACP for (BTW, I have the personal handgun my grandfather carried in France during the Great War and it is a cherished family procession).

With today's micro 380 ACPs, the benefits of the 25 ACP's small size are not as much of an advantage as they used to be. But, the micro 380 ACPs have their disadvantages as well.

Disdain for the 25 ACP might come from the notion that some folks feel the need for 44 performance from a palm size handgun.

otasan56
December 11, 2012, 09:08 AM
The .25ACP is a very poor choice for SD. Even a .32 is a much better choice.

mtrmn
December 11, 2012, 12:03 PM
Hey Guv--I bet you not ONE of these guys would stand at 100 yds and let your wife shoot at them with a baby Browning. ;)

I can only wish I had one or two of them myself.....

pockets
December 11, 2012, 12:55 PM
Why so much disdain for the .25 acp?
Q - "What's dis stain?"

A - "Do you mean dat stain on da floor? Why, dat's left over from da last guy who laughed at my .25acp"
.

481
December 11, 2012, 02:45 PM
Q - "What's dis stain?"

A - "Do you mean dat stain on da floor? Why, dat's left over from da last guy who laughed at my .25acp"
.
That's pretty good, pockets. Funniest thing I've read all day.

ceetee
December 11, 2012, 03:26 PM
I used to own a Raven .25, and it was by far one of the easiest-to-shoot guns I've ever owned. I could run the police qualification course with it and pass, as well. In contrast, the LCP in .380 is one of the hardest-to-shoot pistols I've ever owned. While the recoil of a .380 isn't all that much in a larger, steel-framed pistol, it's quite a handful in the "micro" pistols. I think she's made a great choice in starting out with the .22 revolver. It's a great first step.

FWIW, I've seen exactly one guy shot with a .25 ACP. It happened right in front of me. These two drunk neighbors of mine got into a quarrel once, and the shorter one shot the taller one in the chest. The bullet entered just over his left nipple, nicked a rib, and proceeded straight on through his body, finally coming to rest between the back ribs just under his shoulder blade. While it didn't kill him, it did make for the vaunted one-shot-stop (tm). He went down to his knees, bleeding, no fight left in him.

I personally wouldn't want the .25 to be my ONLY means of self-defense, but yeah. It's way better than a hurled rock.

mdauben
December 11, 2012, 03:33 PM
That is why Glock makes Model 26, 27, and 36.
These guns are not any more user friendly for people with small hands than their full sized brethren. The circumference of the grip on the Glock 26 for example is the same as the full sized Glock 17, the only difference is that it's shorter. As some others have said, a single-stack gun is much more likely to fit small hands than a stubby double stack.

mljdeckard
December 11, 2012, 06:04 PM
Buy, shoot, collect, carry, whatever you want. It's a free country. But if I'm talking to someone who I actually care whether or not they live or die, I will tell them, .380 with premium ammunition (such as Double-Tap) is the minimum.

Kahr33556
December 11, 2012, 08:01 PM
the 25 acp is the one round that they should stop producing.
go with the 32 acp instead if you want small.
my prefrance 380 acp min.

Old Fuff
December 11, 2012, 08:49 PM
Browning designed the little .25 ACP cartridge (also called the 6.35mm Browning) for use in Vest Pocket Pistols, and in that context they’re isn’t anything much better. Over time the FN Browning model 1906 and Colt Vest Pocket model of 1908 became the most copied pistols of all time, and were produced in quantities far greater then any larger caliber.

Why? Because while they are not for the most part favored by members of gun forums, they are greatly so by the general public. These buyers are not gunfighters, nor do they pretend to be. They presume that to be armed with something is far better then to be armed with nothing, and they have no desire to lug around heavier armament. They are supported by the thought that most any thug they may encounter doesn't want to get shot with anything, and at least a few that didn't, came to wish (but not for long) they'd done things differently.

Those that don't feel secure with these little guys are welcome to carry anything bigger, but I have noticed when a top-quality one in good condition shows up at a retailer or gun show they don't sit for very long. Somebody must like them.

EBK
December 11, 2012, 08:51 PM
Wow! Is G-lock the only pistol that is capable of firing 9mm+P+ ammo? :banghead:

For every story of a .25 failing to stop a threat there is a counter-story where it does. An Attorney friend of mine recently and successfully argued a case of two drug dealers shooting it out. Bad Guy #1 pulled a G-lock 9mm on BG #2, fired and missed, whereupon BG #2 grabbed his Lorcin .25 and shot BG #1 in the heart. BG #1 dropped his G-lock, stumbled back clutching his chest, and exanguinated. Lorcin 1, G-lock 0. :what:
LMAO thanks for sharing that. Love those stories pisses the fanboys off.

gtd
December 11, 2012, 11:13 PM
After reading this thread, and carrying a .45 and alternately a .380 daily, I really, really, really want a .25 ACP with a tip-up barrell to carry in my pocket.

It's on my list now. I might even share it with my wife! (But she prefers her .32 revolver.)

Not kidding.

SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE
December 11, 2012, 11:30 PM
I am of the opinion that in most self defense situations , the bad guy should not know you are armed until you begin to shoot him ! With a .25 he might not even see it until it is too late ! Kevin

Teachu2
December 11, 2012, 11:57 PM
McDonalds sells a lot of cheeseburgers - but there are a lot of much better cheeseburgers on the market. Still, a McDonalds cheeseburger is better than no cheeseburger at all.

Quantity sold is not a measure of quality or capability. Sure, a .25acp might kill or repel your attacker, as might a number of other tools and implements, and size and weight must factor into the decision. If a .25 is the biggest, most powerful gun you can and will carry, so be it. The "disdain for the .25 acp" stems from the fact that there are many more capable cartridges available in platforms that, while larger, are still small enough.

Back in my LEO days, my deep BUG was a High Standard .22 WMR derringer, a true desperation gun if there ever was one. Two rounds, long trigger pull, no safeties. Stick it in their ear or throat and pull the trigger. Contact that would push a semi out of battery was the best way to aim that sucker. Give the BG the bullet AND the expanding gas cloud - and they'd get it all since the breech was locked and there was no cylinder gap. If it wasn't touching the target, a miss was likely. Still preferred it to a .25 acp...

.25 acp has the advantage of being available in very small pistols. Period. Ever see a .25 acp in a 4" barrel, hi-cap duty-sized pistol? Me neither.

.25 acp has the disadvantage of only being available in very small pistols, and those run the quality scale from very good to garbage.

Go to your LGS or sporting goods store or even WalMart and make a list of all the ammo choices by caliber, then rank the list from Most Desirable To Save My Life to Least, and see where the .25 acp falls in YOUR ranking.

Davek1977
December 12, 2012, 03:55 AM
I'd rather have a .25 than a sharp rock, but would take a handgun in any other popular caliber over a gun in .25 auto. I see no use for one when there are so many better options available. I'd rather use something that has a more solid reputation for eliminating threats in a defensive pistol
At one point in time the Raven MP25 was one of the most used guns for murder in the country.
That tells me that the little .25acp, while not ideal, does what it is supposed to do. The popularity of a given weapon as a tool for murder does little to convince me its a good choice for self defense. Shooting someone execution style in the back of the head requires less performance than shooting a bad guy hiding behind light cover, for example. Just because a weapon can effectively be used as a tool of murder doesn't make it a smart defensive choice. Too, the statistics for guns used in murders will be skewed towards the lower-end of the gun market, as cheap handguns are commonplace on our city streets. If more people are murdered with a Jennings .380 than a Glock 9mm, does that mean the .380 is a better choice? Or does it mean that there are simply a lot more of the Jennings $80 guns out there than there are $400 Glocks? The Raven is a popular crime tool because its abundant and cheap, not because of the awesomeness of the .25 acp round

Isaac-1
December 12, 2012, 04:33 AM
The problem is some of the .25 stories are true, I knew a guy that was the victim of a drive by .25ACP shooting about 15 years ago, it was one cold January night and he was standing in the parking lot of a bar when he was shot from a passing car, probably 50-75 feet away. Being cold out he was wearing multiple layers of cloths, the bullet did not break his skin, but ruined a nice leather jacket.

mcdonl
December 12, 2012, 08:04 AM
I have always wanted one but ammo price was a turn off....

pockets
December 12, 2012, 10:02 AM
Sorry....I neglected to mention that I love .25acp pistols....I own a lot of them.
A little 'assault Raven' with a 15-round magazine is a hoot to play with.
My favorite .25acp pistol would be the Beretta 950b.....the older version. Mine is from 1957. I'm still looking for an old National brand 15-round mag for that one.
.

MICHAEL T
December 12, 2012, 02:09 PM
Well I have 5 of the little 25 autos. A Bauer bought new 3 Beretta's 2 950's one with safety 1 non safety and a Model 20 . Also have a Titan :what: but its shoots and never jammed. I like the little 25. . Only drew one once. Was the 950. In a parking garage many years ago. He had a folding knife I had the Beretta. GUN was all he saw and he was faster than the Road Runner leaving . My girls and I have 2 of the Beretta 21 in 22 LR . They fun to play with but can't compair to the 950 for accuracy and trouble free. Their also thicker and have lousy trigger. .

People carry those little NAA 22LR and 22 mag pistols . Yet show their dislike for the 25. They need to check NAA tests of ammo and their guns on their web sight Might find out their not reall any better than a 25 . Plus the 25 holds more rounds and shoots faster Could even be reloaded with a spae mag quicker.
I carry my 380 KelTec more today but I like and still carry 25 now and then.

smalls
December 12, 2012, 03:14 PM
People carry those little NAA 22LR and 22 mag pistols . Yet show their dislike for the 25
Well, yeah. I don't think anyone carrying a .22 should be running around telling people the .25 is an anemic round.

Madcap_Magician
December 12, 2012, 03:37 PM
What about a .22 magnum? Or a .380 ACP? Both can be had in platforms that are easier to shoot than any .25 ACP belly gun and are more powerful with the same or less recoil.

A .22 magnum 3" S&W revolver would be a good gun. So would a Beretta 84 in .380 ACP.

Robbins290
December 12, 2012, 03:53 PM
i think 25 is too weak and slow to do much damage, 380 is the min i would go.

Fiv3r
December 12, 2012, 04:32 PM
Once upon a time in the mid-late 70's, my father and mother were dirt poor and lived in a crappy neighborhood. My mother's parents, not being rich themselves, wanted to provide them with SOMETHING to protect their home and hearth.

My grandfather, a man of meager means, secured my father with a Glennfield Marlin Model 60 .22 rifle for the house and a .25 caliber pocket pistol of some Saturday Night Special brand.

Even though my parents are no longer married, my dad still carries that little .25 in his truck for protection. It's kind of funny seeing my burly barrel chested dad driving around in his stacked diesel truck knowing that this very manly construction worker "risks" his life carrying a 35 year old Saturday Night Special .25 pistol under the seat.

But I'll tell you what...the man PRACTICED. He used to shoot match boxes at 15-20 yards (not from rest). If my dad drew a bead on you with that .25, that little pill was going right where he wanted it. Is it the BEST, of course not, but it has served him well for 3 decades.

Same goes for my dear ol' granddad. His hands aren't what they used to be, but he carries a little snubnose .22 in his pocket every day. It's what he answers the door with. I have no question that the tough ol' buzzard couldn't drop someone with that little .22 in a hurry.

Now, I don't carry anything that small. The LCP has made a .25 a moot point for me. I can get .380 ammo cheaper, it packs more punch, etc. On top of that, I generally carry a 9mm or .45 most days. But the idea of a vest gun lives on in these little .380's. I'll probably never be as good of a shot as my dad, but I have no doubt that some little "small" caliber weapon will be found in the stash of weapons I leave behind when I'm done on this earth. I certainly wouldn't mind a Baby Browning in my collection, and I wouldn't hesitate to carry a .25 as a Back up Back up:)

MagicD
December 12, 2012, 07:46 PM
11 oz neat
http://www.czub.cz/en/catalog/79-pistols-cz/PS/CZ_92.aspx

orionengnr
December 12, 2012, 09:03 PM
Considering the fact that a KT P32 weighs less than your average .25 POS and fires a more effective round, I cannot see how anyone can justify carrying a .25...except for "tradition"...:rolleyes:

Old Fuff
December 12, 2012, 09:08 PM
Considering the fact that a KT P32 weighs less than your average .25 POS and fires a more effective round, I cannot see how anyone can justify carrying a .25...except for "tradition"...

Does it fit in your vest pocket? :uhoh:

Swing
December 12, 2012, 09:19 PM
Disdain for the .25 ACP? Naw. But, ya-know, you can get a .32ACP and .380 ACP in the same package these days. Time was the 25 Auto Colt was the only game in town for a true vest pocket auto, but that has changed. Anywho, back to the original point, .22LR v .25 ACP? Who cares, the difference is minuscule.

P.S. The ".22LR/.25ACP/.32ACP won't punch through a leather jacket" thing is so 80s. Ah-ha-ha!

Kayaker 1960
December 12, 2012, 09:44 PM
My great uncle Andy used to always keep a .25 in his pocket. We took it out into the back yard and fired it from about 4 feet away into a douglas fir 2 x 4 . The bullet went in about 1/2 of the legnth of the bullet (about 5/16 of an inch) Granted, it was a cheap Saturday Night Special but I would rather have a .22 L.R. at least it will penetrate better. For defensive purposes I'll say a .380 is my very minimum.
P.S. Just to be clear on the penetration of that shot; The nose of the bullet was only 5/16" into the wood. The base of the bullet was sticking out. Bouncing off of a forehead, I beleive that.

TennJed
December 12, 2012, 11:18 PM
11 oz neat
http://www.czub.cz/en/catalog/79-pistols-cz/PS/CZ_92.aspx

I would buy that in a heartbeat if it came in 12lr

kludge
December 12, 2012, 11:33 PM
For a "bedside" gun until ready to move up in caliber I would recommend the following...

Bersa Thunder .380 (or the Thunder .380CC)

This gun is easy to shoot and recoil is no problem for most people. Nobody that I know likes to the shoot a Kel-Tec P-3AT or Ruger LCR. I've have a few women come to our class either having just bought one or wanting one. After shooting them, all of them have left with a different opinion.

Ruger SP101 in .357 Magnum.

Shoot .38 Special until you are ready to move up... and it gives you three choices .38 Special, .38 Special +P, and .357 Magnum. Even wadcutter target loads are much better than any .25 ACP or .22 rimfire load.

Kiln
December 13, 2012, 04:05 AM
My grandfather, a man of meager means, secured my father with a Glennfield Marlin Model 60 .22 rifle for the house and a .25 caliber pocket pistol of some Saturday Night Special brand.

Even though my parents are no longer married, my dad still carries that little .25 in his truck for protection. It's kind of funny seeing my burly barrel chested dad driving around in his stacked diesel truck knowing that this very manly construction worker "risks" his life carrying a 35 year old Saturday Night Special .25 pistol under the seat.

My Raven MP25 has worked fine after I adjusted the lips of the magazine. It was the first gun I owned and I was glad to have it when I was broke. I've upgraded to much more expensive guns now but honestly as long as the gun works I don't have an issue with it.

The Raven shoots much more accurately than people would like to admit too.

ceetee
December 13, 2012, 03:59 PM
http://www.czub.cz/upload/cz-big/cz_engraving_PI-17.png



Ooooooooohhhh... Pretty. lol

MedWheeler
December 13, 2012, 07:28 PM
TennJed writes:

I would buy that in a heartbeat if it came in 12lr

Now that could be a tiny gun..! :D

frankmako
December 13, 2012, 08:20 PM
on the job,,,,i have seen several that have been killed with a 25 acp. i have also seen several that has not been killed with larger cal pistols. so there you go. in the 70's and 80's i carried a beretta jetfire as my backup gun. never felt under gun with it in my pocket. now it is not a gun for a gun fight,,,but for a gun to shoot dry as fast as you can pull the trigger,,it is hard to beat.

Frizzman
December 13, 2012, 11:46 PM
My daughter started out shooting a handgun at a young age when she was pretty small. We started with a S&W 422 .22 pistol and fairly quickly worked up to bigger calibers. She eventually settled on my Colt Government Model .45 ACP. She shoots is very well and has confidence in her pistol and her ability to shoot it. If this is to be a handgun to be kept in the house, small size isn't an issue. Her size and being new to guns can be overcome by proper training and experience. Perhaps she might attend a good handgun familiarization course and learn to shoot a more capable handgun. My wife has no interest in shooting but she has learned well enough to shoot a .38 S&W M&P and keeps that available when I'm away...I wouldn't arm her with such a puny pistol. A BB to the eye may stop an assailant but I wouldn't want to depend on a BB gun.

Preacher.
December 14, 2012, 02:28 AM
I must say, reading all this has been quite entertaining. :D

JERRY
December 14, 2012, 04:02 AM
the caliber is misunderstood by many and thus misused by the same uninformed.

the guns can be had in an excellent sample such as the betretta 950BS so dont let the "cheap" guns stigma sway you; there are cheap guns in 9mm as well.

when applied properly the .25acp is accurate but lets not fool ourselves into believing its something that it is not.

asking a .45acp to do the job of a 30-06 and then saying the .45acp is a lousy round is the same as expecting the .25acp mini gun to do what a larger caliber larger gun does.

otasan56
December 14, 2012, 08:10 AM
otasan56, unless you have xray vision, I dont think shooting for the liver will do you much good. When it comes to gut shots any large diameter bullet will do more damage...obviously a +P+ 9mm will do more damage to someone than a .25, no matter where you hit him...i think that goes without saying

Recommending a .40 for someone who is totally inexperienced with guns shows that you dont really understand what its like to teach a complete novice how to shoot...

a .25 does not NEED to hit in an open mouth to kill, tests show that the .25 will penetrate 15 inches in gel...so i think at fighting distance, quality .25 ammo in a quality gun shouldnt have much trouble going through rib bones or whatever
Yes, the .25 doesn't have to hit the brain stem to kill. Neither does any other caliber. But we are talking about DROPPING an attacker. With a .25, only a hit to the brainstem or upper spinal cord will DROP an attacker immediately.

otasan56
December 14, 2012, 08:13 AM
Buy, shoot, collect, carry, whatever you want. It's a free country. But if I'm talking to someone who I actually care whether or not they live or die, I will tell them, .380 with premium ammunition (such as Double-Tap) is the minimum.
Good recommendation. I agree that the bare minimum is a .380.

Cocked & Locked
December 14, 2012, 09:22 AM
1908 Colt "Vest Pocket" .25 acp...when you don't want plastic in your pocket

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/6259764/317273115.jpg

45_auto
December 14, 2012, 09:31 AM
But we are talking about DROPPING an attacker. With a .25, only a hit to the brainstem or upper spinal cord will DROP an attacker immediately.

Is there somewhere else you can you hit someone with a 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP that will DROP an attacker immediately?

Onmilo
December 14, 2012, 10:20 AM
A friend of mine was killed with a .25 acp. Guy shot at him five times scored but one hit, in his back just below the left shoulder blade. The bullet passed between two ribs and clipped his aorta just above the heart.
He didn't fall down or even stumble. Walked to a porch and sat down, was unconcious in about 15 seconds and dead in about one minute, bled out into his upper cheast cavity, the bleeding actually caused him to stop breathing in about ten seconds as the weight of the fluid prevented his lungs from functioning properly.

I respect .25 acp as I do all calibers. The cartridge can and does kill people.
That said, it would be my absolute last choice as a defensive cartridge, the stopping power of the round is pathetic.

JR47
December 14, 2012, 03:25 PM
You mean that there's someone who actually believes in "stopping power"?

NO pistol caliber is a "guaranteed stopper". NONE. There are very few rifle calibers that guarantee 100% stopping power, and you won't find them used in a combat scenario.

Use whatever you want. In the end, the person shooting the gun is far more likely to produce stopping power than the gun and caliber. The largest calibers in the world need to hit something vital, and a gun simply won't do that. The operator does.

jimbo555
December 14, 2012, 09:31 PM
Let's.see,we have a tiny gun you can barely get a grip on and a low power tiny fmj cartridge with no expansion and iffy penetration. No thanks!

Onmilo
December 15, 2012, 04:11 AM
I believe in stopping power, absolutely.
Anyone who has ever hunted or has been in combat and has a rudimentary understanding of physics will be a believer in stopping power.

Shoot a person in the pelvis with a .45 Colt, I am willing to bet they will stop what they are doing and not want to continue.

Shoot a person in the pelvis with a .25 acp, I am willing to bet they will stop what they are doing until they recover their senses.

Both bullets will stop a person from doing what they were doing, the larger bullet will simply do the job more effectively.

Physics comes into play in the space between those extremes.
A bullet smaller than say 1/2 inch in diameter and no less than 1/2 the weight of the larger bullet can be made to perform with similar results by upping the expansion capability and this is achieved through proper construction and increasing the velocity of the bullet.
Actually, a bullet smaller than 1/2 inch in diameter and no less than 1/2 the weight of the larger bullet driven to a velocity capable of expanding the bullet to 1/2 inch in diameter once it strikes a foreign object and capable of penetrating to a depth similar to or exceeding that of an already larger bullet will perform as well or even exceed to capability of the larger bullet.

The distance the target is from the weapon also comes into play due to declines in velocity and energy the farther away the target is from the weapon.
A large bullet driven at high velocity is more effective than a small bullet at longer ranges even when the smaller bullet is driven to similar or higher velocities simply because the reduced weight of the smaller bullet will carry and impart less energy the farther the target is downrange.

Because bullets designed for smaller semi automatic "Pocket Pistols" cannot be made heavier without a drop in velocity due to the smaller cartridge cases preventing current style or heavier bullets from being driven to higher velocities because of the space limitations of the cartridge case and current propellant technology, the power levels of these weapons will not and can not equal or exceed the capabilities of a larger caliber.

Until someone comes up with a way of generating a pulsed electrically discharged laser or a pure energy pulsed plasma charge from a weapon capable of being easily concealed on or about the human body, this is the way it is and will be.

Old Fuff
December 15, 2012, 08:48 AM
Hopefully no one thinks that a little bullet is more likely to down an opponent then a big one. That's a non-issue, and those that bring it up are missing the point.

Larger cartridges come in bigger platforms, and for many buyers who are not gun fans, size and weight matter. They want to be armed, but not pack a big iron. They feel secure in the knowledge (that's mostly true) no one really wants to be shot with anything. They do not live in a fantasy world where the next gunfight is just around the corner, but a common street thug might be.

But… but now days we have pistols the same size that will hold a bigger (and therefore better) cartridge. Almost but not quite true. You aren’t going to get a .32 into a Baby Browning, and larger rounds in small guns come with blast and recoil some folks don’t want.

During their golden years (about 1906 through 1968) more .25 automatics were made and sold worldwide then any other kind of handgun. In Europe the number of different large and small makers can fill a book. They were popular because by design they were simple, small and relatively inexpensive. The people who bought them shared none of the concerns that have been brought up in this thread. This doesn’t mean they were right, but it also doesn’t mean they were wrong. If these little pea shooters consistently failed they wouldn’t still be around today, and if some of our members wouldn’t be caught dead with one, those who did carry them wouldn’t give a hoot. Ya’ got two different cultures here.

JERRY
December 15, 2012, 08:48 AM
i know a few old folks who have the beretta 950BS in .25acp....i cant talk any of them out of them.

guess that easy S/A/ trigger and virtually no recoil in the reason they like'em.

JR47
December 15, 2012, 09:58 AM
I believe in stopping power, absolutely.
Anyone who has ever hunted or has been in combat and has a rudimentary understanding of physics will be a believer in stopping power.

Done both, and have more than a working knowledge in physics.

Stopping power is a myth. Evan Marshall, who's books defined the term, states plainly that "stopping power is a myth". Page 3, Handgun Stopping Power, 1992.

There are too many people alive today, who were shot with things like a 30mm round, or an RPG, to believe that ANY rifle or pistol round is a guaranteed "stopper".

There are some rounds that can stop an attack, but only if placed precisely, and in a large enough number. If a .22 Long Rifle round can stop a person, then anything larger, in the same place, will do the same thing.

Hopefully no one thinks that a little bullet is more likely to down an opponent then a big one. That's a non-issue, and those that bring it up are missing the point.

Actually, it's the opposite. Apparently there are those to whom a bullet smaller than a given, to them, size is seemingly unable to to down an opponent . That is a non-issue, and those that bring it up are missing the point.

Current .25 ACP bullets are the product of 1900's technology, with a very few exceptions. The manufacturers are happy to sell a number of rounds per year. They haven't determined a need to invest money in improving the caliber. The same technology that has given us the improved .380 ACP ammunition could easily be applied to the round. Powders are today available that would increase performance markedly, while maintaining pressures at a safe limit. Look at the Superformance rounds, or Cor-Bon's pistol ammo.

Then again, the current ammunition does seem to kill quite handily. Despite the apparent physics issue. Then again, until recently, physics proved that a Bumblebee couldn't fly. Nobody bothered to tell the bees, apparently.

The size of a projectile matters little, as long as it hits the appropriate target, and penetrates it. Look at the .22 Long Rifle. As most CCW incidents take place at less than seven feet, in near-darkness, distance is also a meaningless factor. Unless one was asleep, most actions play out up close, with 50' engagements virtually the sole province of the LEO.

It's amusing to listen to the pontifications of those who pronounce their knowledge as the ultimate arbiter. They are uniformly wrong.

Will a .25 ACP kill? Of course it will. Nobody is dumb enough to deny that. Is it the optimal self-defense weapon? Nope, and I haven't seen a single person claiming that. However, the gun that you have certainly beats the "better gun" that's at home.

Not too long ago, a Police Officer felt adequately armed with a six-shot .38 Special revolver, loaded with round-nosed 158-200 gr. bullets. Before than, they felt safe carrying .32 S&W revolvers. Many Armies issued the .32 ACP cartridge for battlefield use, as well.

Today, we poo-poo these cartridges as worse than nothing. Oddly, there are literally millions of dead people whom this wasn't true for. Perhaps we should understand that humans aren't particularly hard to kill, or stop, sometimes. Other times, they are literally bullet sponges, of everything man-portable. There doesn't seem to be a linear relationship to this, either. It's like a switch thrown at the first impact. Before the switch, a .22 long rifle will have them on the ground. After that switch is turned, though, they are the Amazing Hulk.

Carry what you feel comfortable with. It will work for the majority of the time, despite the warnings of the pundits. Fo the Hulks, nothing that you have will work, so why worry?

Accuracy trumps technology, and has for thousands of years. That is provided by the shooter. :)

Old Fuff
December 15, 2012, 11:04 AM
Anyone who has read my previous posts on this forum know that I am a strong advocate of bullet placement, and it is ultimately placement that makes the difference when stopping an attack.

That said, a bigger-in-diameter bullet will make a larger channel, be more destructive to the tissue and organs it impacts, and often result in greater bleeding.

But the bigger cartridge usually requires a bigger gun, and given the circumstances carrying one may not be practical.

If, for whatever reason, one is relagated to carrying somthing smaller, then the key to success is marksmanship and bullet placement, and while such placement may be difficult, when it happens the diameter of the bullet becomes a more-or-less moot point.

There are better defensive handguns and cartridges then a .25 vest pocket pistol, but when one, for their own reasons or situations decide to carry one they are much better off then having nothing.

otasan56
December 15, 2012, 11:41 AM
Wow! Is G-lock the only pistol that is capable of firing 9mm+P+ ammo? :banghead:

For every story of a .25 failing to stop a threat there is a counter-story where it does. An Attorney friend of mine recently and successfully argued a case of two drug dealers shooting it out. Bad Guy #1 pulled a G-lock 9mm on BG #2, fired and missed, whereupon BG #2 grabbed his Lorcin .25 and shot BG #1 in the heart. BG #1 dropped his G-lock, stumbled back clutching his chest, and exanguinated. Lorcin 1, G-lock 0. :what:
No, many other 9x19 handguns can handle +p+ cartridges. I just prefer my G17.

otasan56
December 15, 2012, 11:45 AM
123

otasan56
December 15, 2012, 11:47 AM
These guns are not any more user friendly for people with small hands than their full sized brethren. The circumference of the grip on the Glock 26 for example is the same as the full sized Glock 17, the only difference is that it's shorter. As some others have said, a single-stack gun is much more likely to fit small hands than a stubby double stack.
Thanks, I forgot that the G26/27 grip is just as wide a the G17/19.

Tcruse
December 16, 2012, 11:17 AM
Also the 17L and 34/35 have same grip size and 26/27. The 17 is easier to shoot well than the 26 or 19 by many.
In my case, several experienced gun people, advise that I would find the CZ 75B as best for my short finger/fat hands. After trying several, I found that the guns that people thought would be all wrong turned out to be the best, namely Barretta 92, Ruger P95, and Glocks. As you shoot more guns and gain experience, expect your preferences to change.

mljdeckard
December 16, 2012, 11:27 AM
Myunit in Afghanistan called in an air strike on some bad guys. They got hosed by an A-10. They captured a straggler in the village STILL UPRIGHT AND TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH A 30MM HOLE THROUGH HIS RIGHT SHOULDER. There are no guarantees.

otasan56
December 16, 2012, 12:40 PM
Myunit in Afghanistan called in an air strike on some bad guys. They got hosed by an A-10. They captured a straggler in the village STILL UPRIGHT AND TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH A 30MM HOLE THROUGH HIS RIGHT SHOULDER. There are no guarantees.
Still running around with a 30mm hole through the shoulder? It must have not been a hollow point (!).

David E
December 16, 2012, 02:17 PM
Actually, a bullet smaller than 1/2 inch in diameter and no less than 1/2 the weight of the larger bullet driven to a velocity capable of expanding the bullet to 1/2 inch in diameter once it strikes and is capable of penetrating to a depth similar to or exceeding that of an already larger bullet will perform as well or even exceed to capability of the larger bullet.


Please cite the research that supports this assertion.

JR47
December 16, 2012, 05:46 PM
Ruger, HK, and Sig also rate their handguns for +P+. The +P+ ammunition will not make the pistol KaBoom, you have to buy a Glock 22 for that. It will, however, cause accelerated wear on the parts. Big difference.

NO .25 ACP will cause accelerated wear on the gun.

I'm NOT a fan of the .25 ACP as a primary gun. I agree with Old Fluff about bigger holes. What I am about is the continuation of hyperbolic nonsense regarding the .25 ACP. To listen to some of these unsupported claims, being shot with a .25 Pistol should make you feel BETTER. Although, after exsanguination, you probably won't feel worse, ever again.:)

JERRY
December 16, 2012, 11:14 PM
A .single 22lr round from a mini revolver (ballistic match or less than a standard .25acp) killed trooper coats (schp) after he fired 6 duty rounds from his dept. Issued revolver.

Trooper's rounds hit fat man in gut and he lived, physically fit trooper was hit in arm pit and out if commision within 20 seconds and died within a minute. Not a video for the squemish.

a 50gr. fmj @ 800 fps is not a toy.

481
December 17, 2012, 12:04 AM
Stopping power is a myth.

This.

If only everyone had gotten the memo. ;)

1SOW
December 17, 2012, 03:49 AM
The bullet manufacturers spend the money and time to develop effective performance by bullets due to profits reaped from demand.

No profits = no bullet development.

The gun manufacturers make money by developing handguns that can deliver effective bullets. Effective delivery = profit from demand

A 25 can kill you. So can a stone from David's sling.

Clark
February 28, 2013, 12:01 AM
When I shoot triple loads in a 25acp, they are loud and the recoil really hurts.

stinger 327
February 28, 2013, 12:08 AM
Seems like you answered your own question.

If you are buying a firearm for your wife to keep by the bedside then wouldn't you want her to have something that is a good defense round?

If it's going to be bedside, there's no point in it being small and concealable.

Something that would be very easy for her to manage and offer more firepower would be a .22LR RIFLE with 10+ rounds in it. No recoil, much easier to hit your target, etc.

After putting a few magazines through both I would be very surprised if your wife chose the .25.

My wife is petite but it only took about two shooting sessions starting with .22LR for her work up to be able to handle more powerful riles, pistols, shotguns.

If you are looking for a handgun for self defense at home I would look at a full size (K frame etc) .38 special with a 4" or larger barrel. Very light recoil IMO.

Also a full sized 9mm pistol will tend to be light recoiling.

Is .25 worthless? No, but as you yourself mentioned there are better options.

I would guess if you took your wife to a range with a pocket sized .25 auto and a full size 9mm she'll get better accuracy and probably less percieved recoil from the 9mm.
.25 is a centerfire cartridge much more reliable than the .22 LR rimfire cartridge.

stinger 327
February 28, 2013, 12:10 AM
The bullet manufacturers spend the money and time to develop effective performance by bullets due to profits reaped from demand.

No profits = no bullet development.

The gun manufacturers make money by developing handguns that can deliver effective bullets. Effective delivery = profit from demand

A 25 can kill you. So can a stone from David's sling.
.25 ACP bullet is best in FMJ so then at least you will get the most penetration possible in that caliber. In hollowpoint form the .25 doesn't travel fast enough to expand so FMJ is preferred and feeds more reliable than hollowpoint.

Mat, not doormat
February 28, 2013, 12:26 AM
All handguns suck, why pick the one that sucks the most?

CZguy
February 28, 2013, 02:06 AM
All handguns suck, why pick the one that sucks the most?

Just out of curiosity, have you read this thread? :scrutiny:

Sport45
February 28, 2013, 02:44 AM
I used to think of .25acp as an expensive reloadable alternative to .22lr.

Now I think of .25acp as a viable alternative to .22lr because at least it's reloadable.

But to be honest the only thing I've ever used the round (a dummy) for was as a magazine follower in Dad's Visible Loader.

otasan56
February 28, 2013, 09:01 AM
No. I am sure that there are other 9mms that can handle +p+ ammo. And having a Glock doesn't guarantee victory in a gun fight.

SharpsDressedMan
February 28, 2013, 04:45 PM
I enjoy plinking with the .25 auto, but I reload. Dollar for dollar, .25 factory ammo offers the LEAST return for the dollar of all factory ammo. I fully understand why people take no interest in the .25, even for range fun. If .25 ammo were priced more like .22 rimfire, more people would shoot and own them.

DMZ
February 28, 2013, 04:51 PM
I swung by the sporting goods section of the local discount store the other day to see if they had any restock up. In the pistol ammo section, there were still 2 boxes of .25 Auto sitting there. That was it.

SharpsDressedMan
February 28, 2013, 07:55 PM
And the price was?

DMZ
February 28, 2013, 07:58 PM
I didn't notice.

SHR970
February 28, 2013, 10:41 PM
When I see statements like this I just have to speak up: Tiny Hands?
That is why Glock makes Model 26, 27, and 36.

People who make statements like this do not understand that people small hands and short fingers have issues with double stack magazines. Understanding = zero, zip, nada. I see this all too often and this junk usually comes from someone on the plus side of the bell curve. Small hands are mens size 7 1/2 - 8, XS is size 7; please look at a glove sizing chart. Tiny is womens size 6.

Shortening the grip does not do ANYTHING for the grip width, circumference, or trigger reach. People of the smaller hand sizes don't do well with certain guns; I know because I am one of them. Glocks and size 7 1/2 hands means I MUST hold improperly to get my finger on the trigger. Same for XD's, Beratta 92's, etc.

Some people are caliber limited due to hand size. Yes, we want the biggest caliber that we can shoot well. We also need a platform that we can hold well. More importantly, a platform that we can deploy under stress well. For some people that is calibers like 25 auto and 32 auto. Just because your big paws make these small guns disappear and you get slide bit does not mean we all do.

The first rule is to find a gun that fits well; that generally means that it will point well. If it fits well and points well, then look for caliber. If it fits and points well, you will be more likely to hit where you need to. With that comes the confidence that may very well end it before you have to pull the trigger. If you do have to pull the trigger, you are more likely to hit where you aim. Even the mouse calibers will do their job if you put them in the right place. 25's have put many people in their graves. There is a reason that this puny caliber has lasted soooo long (1905 - present).

SHR970
February 28, 2013, 10:53 PM
Removed double

Big_John1961
February 28, 2013, 11:17 PM
Done both, and have more than a working knowledge in physics.

Stopping power is a myth. Evan Marshall, who's books defined the term, states plainly that "stopping power is a myth". Page 3, Handgun Stopping Power, 1992.

There are too many people alive today, who were shot with things like a 30mm round, or an RPG, to believe that ANY rifle or pistol round is a guaranteed "stopper".

There are some rounds that can stop an attack, but only if placed precisely, and in a large enough number. If a .22 Long Rifle round can stop a person, then anything larger, in the same place, will do the same thing.

Quote:
Hopefully no one thinks that a little bullet is more likely to down an opponent then a big one. That's a non-issue, and those that bring it up are missing the point.
Actually, it's the opposite. Apparently there are those to whom a bullet smaller than a given, to them, size is seemingly unable to to down an opponent . That is a non-issue, and those that bring it up are missing the point.

Current .25 ACP bullets are the product of 1900's technology, with a very few exceptions. The manufacturers are happy to sell a number of rounds per year. They haven't determined a need to invest money in improving the caliber. The same technology that has given us the improved .380 ACP ammunition could easily be applied to the round. Powders are today available that would increase performance markedly, while maintaining pressures at a safe limit. Look at the Superformance rounds, or Cor-Bon's pistol ammo.

Then again, the current ammunition does seem to kill quite handily. Despite the apparent physics issue. Then again, until recently, physics proved that a Bumblebee couldn't fly. Nobody bothered to tell the bees, apparently.

The size of a projectile matters little, as long as it hits the appropriate target, and penetrates it. Look at the .22 Long Rifle. As most CCW incidents take place at less than seven feet, in near-darkness, distance is also a meaningless factor. Unless one was asleep, most actions play out up close, with 50' engagements virtually the sole province of the LEO.

It's amusing to listen to the pontifications of those who pronounce their knowledge as the ultimate arbiter. They are uniformly wrong.

Will a .25 ACP kill? Of course it will. Nobody is dumb enough to deny that. Is it the optimal self-defense weapon? Nope, and I haven't seen a single person claiming that. However, the gun that you have certainly beats the "better gun" that's at home.

Not too long ago, a Police Officer felt adequately armed with a six-shot .38 Special revolver, loaded with round-nosed 158-200 gr. bullets. Before than, they felt safe carrying .32 S&W revolvers. Many Armies issued the .32 ACP cartridge for battlefield use, as well.

Today, we poo-poo these cartridges as worse than nothing. Oddly, there are literally millions of dead people whom this wasn't true for. Perhaps we should understand that humans aren't particularly hard to kill, or stop, sometimes. Other times, they are literally bullet sponges, of everything man-portable. There doesn't seem to be a linear relationship to this, either. It's like a switch thrown at the first impact. Before the switch, a .22 long rifle will have them on the ground. After that switch is turned, though, they are the Amazing Hulk.

Carry what you feel comfortable with. It will work for the majority of the time, despite the warnings of the pundits. Fo the Hulks, nothing that you have will work, so why worry?

Accuracy trumps technology, and has for thousands of years. That is provided by the shooter

Excellent post.

Takem406
February 28, 2013, 11:22 PM
I'm not trying to stir up trouble, just wanted to have a discussion about this. My wife and I were recently shopping around looking at small handguns at local gun shops. She is tiny with small hands, and has little to no firearms experience other than the times I have brought her shooting with me. We were essentially looking for a small, light, low recoil pistol that she could get confident with and keep by the bedside until she is comfortable moving up in caliber.

Well at practically every shop we visited, when I asked to see a .25 acp from the case like a beretta, taurus, baby browning, etc. they were basically like "oh you don't want that" and proceeded to tell me what a horrible choice it would be and how useless the round is. I thought this was a bit condescending.

Also on many gun discussion sites you will find very little love for the .25 acp. "If somebody shot me with one, id get mad" type comments. People usually say the .22lr is way better. I'm starting to think the little round gets ragged on unfairly. I think its unfair because when you look at the numbers, from identical guns with very short barrels, the .22lr and .25 acp are putting out almost the same numbers as far as energy (around 60-70 ft lbs.) I noticed alot of people mistakenly cite the .22lr energy from a rifle length barrel (usually around 130 ft. lbs.) when comparing to the .25 acp.

There are lots of anecdotal stories of .25 acp bouncing off someone's forehead, or failing to penetrate a leather jacket, etc. But I have a feeling that this reputation comes from the crappy "Saturday night special" .25's that flooded the market after the '68 gun control act. Perhaps these guns had poorly manufactured bores with loose tolerances which resulted in lower muzzle velocities? Anyway, brassfetcher tested a quality .25 acp gun (beretta 21a) and it achieved advertised velocity and penetrated 15 inches of gelatin with ball ammo. http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1715.htm

Now please note that I am NOT trying to say that the .25 acp is an effective stopper, nor am I trying to pretend that its a good defense round.. But it aint no airsoft gun either like some would lead you to beleive. Lets remember why John Browning designed this round, to be a more reliable alternative to the .22lr in pocket sized pistols. I think it serves this purpose fairly well.

My wife ended up choosing the Ruger LCR .22lr revolver, but I felt compelled to write this anyways. I appreciate the history of this little round and one of my dream guns I would love to have is an original Baby Browning. My great grandfather was a police officer who's off-duty carry gun was a Colt 1908 vest pocket .25 acp. He passed it on to my grandfather (another cop) who also carried it off duty until the 1970's. We still have it in the family.

Sounds like you and you wife need self defense handgun training from a good instructor!

A 380 or 9 with training can be shot by anyone well. There's tons of soft shooting 9's and 380 with several choices for good defense ammo.
And anyone can rack the slide on an auto with training. Shoot even one handed.


In God and Glock we Trust

If you enjoyed reading about "Why so much disdain for the .25 acp?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!