Attempted armed carjacking at a church in Portland, Oregon


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NavyLCDR
December 10, 2012, 02:22 PM
This is exactly why we need to carry and be ready to use our gun to defend ourselves, the police sometimes will do absolutely nothing to ensure our safety:

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Two-Portland-boys-11-and-7-use-gun-in-attempted-robbery-carjacking--182752311.html

Officers spotted an 11-year-old and a 7-year old boy on the south side of the church. Police told the 11-year-old to keep his hands out of his pockets but he ignored them. The officers grabbed his arms and found a cocked and loaded .22 caliber handgun in his pocket, Simpson said.

The officers were then flagged down by 22-year-old Ami Garrett who said she was sitting in her truck when the two kids approached her in the church parking lot and tried to carjack her while she waited for her parents, Simpson said.

"They told me they were going to blow my brains out if I didn't give them something," she said. "My heart was beating a million miles an hour. I definitely didn't think I was going to get out of there alive. I thought I was going to die."

Here's the kicker. Several Federal and State felonies committed by the criminals and whomever they obtained the gun from. So what happens to the criminals?

Because of the boys’ ages, they were placed into the custody of their families. When the 11-year-old was taken home, he took off running. He was quickly caught again and left in the custody of his parents.

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Cosmoline
December 10, 2012, 02:26 PM
Any idea how high you'd be strung up for shooting an 11 and 7 year old?

NavyLCDR
December 10, 2012, 02:47 PM
Is self defense not allowed because the person telling you they are going to blow your brains out with the gun in their possession is a minor? What is the age limit? What if the kid was 15 or 17?

How should an armed citizen proceed in a situation like this? Does the situation change if the criminals are two 200lb guys with tattoos and piercings in the exact same situation?

What would have happened if the 11 year old took the gun to school for show and tell or to use as a prop in a school play? I guarantee then, with no criminal intent shown, that there would be much more action taken than the child was released to his parents. Or, what if he took the gun to school and was showing it to other children and telling them "Give me your lunch money or I will blow your brains out?"

Bobson
December 10, 2012, 03:06 PM
There's no age limit or requirement in self-defense cases, in Arizona at least. The problem would be convincing a jury that an 11 year old boy was a deadly threat to a grown man. Even knowing he had a gun, put yourself in that courtroom. The kid will be crying, obviously afraid. He won't be cocky or menacing, he'll be hunched forward, and look small and anything but dangerous. You would have your work cut out for you.

Cosmoline
December 10, 2012, 03:14 PM
Exactly. The problem is getting anyone to believe you. No matter how many kids murder, a lot of folks simply cannot accept that it's a possibility or that a grown adult had no other option but to shoot. It's a real nightmare scenario either way. And the fact that the police just returned Jr. home (twice) is not a comfort.

It's the one situation where I might just risk it and try to disarm him. Hoping of course that he doesn't know how to use the thing.

scaatylobo
December 10, 2012, 03:18 PM
I would truly feel very bad if I was put in a situation where I might have to shoot a youth.

Been there and felt terrible,but she had a knife and she was about to slice/stab me.

Yes,she did drop it a few feet from my muzzle.

And yes I would have fired,I am sure.

But feel good about it - no,not ever.

I know rule #1 and that is "I go home in one piece".

I did not change my mind when I took off the duty belt for good.

SO,given NO CHOICE = shoot and be tried by twelve - rather than carried by 6.

Bobson
December 10, 2012, 03:20 PM
Absolutely correct on all points. I know the juvenile justice system prefers diversion and informal counseling, but it was attempted armed robbery, not petty shoplifting. The parents seem unlikely to be doing a great job...

ATBackPackin
December 10, 2012, 03:36 PM
The officers were then flagged down by 22-year-old Ami Garrett who said she was sitting in her truck when the two kids approached her in the church parking lot and tried to carjack her while she waited for her parents, Simpson said.

Garrett told officers that the 7-year-old told the 11-year-old to "show her your piece" and the 11-year-old lifted his shirt and showed her the gun.

"They told me they had a gun and I asked if it was real, and they said 'you don't ever ask if a gun is real,'" Garrett told KGW Sunday. "There was a lot of curse words and at first I thought they were just punk kids. I didn't think it was a real gun until he showed me the bullets."

Garrett refused to give up her truck, so the kids demanded her phone and money, telling her they couldn’t leave without something and threatened to shoot her, Simpson said.

"They told me they were going to blow my brains out if I didn't give them something," she said. "My heart was beating a million miles an hour. I definitely didn't think I was going to get out of there alive. I thought I was going to die."


Sounds like to me that this may be part of some gang initiation. I cannot believe they gave the 11 year old back to his parents........for the second time. I wish I could say it is unbelievable, but unfortunately it is very believable.

Shawn

AlaskaMan
December 10, 2012, 03:38 PM
Glad that the responding officers did not have to use deadly force.

Sounds like there is a lot of info yet to be generated on this. Returning kids to the parents is a commonly used technique. There are some great foster homes out there, but some truly horrible ones as well. Makes me wonder if the home situation for the 11 year old is abusive or worse.

Give them time to work it out. Just because the information is not publicly available doesn't mean there is some sort of conspiracy. Juvenile proceedings are played close to the chest and there probably won't be much more available about this.

Does the situation change if the criminals are two 200lb guys with tattoos and piercings in the exact same situation?
If someone presents themselves as a real, credible threat I'm pretty likely to believe them. Whether they are 11 years old or a 92 year old great grandmother won't matter. The officer in this case believed the kid was a threat, he stopped the kid before he could pull out the gun. The kid cannot realize the consequences of his actions in not following police commands. The officers didn't hang out behind cover and give commands over a P/A.

Kudos to the police for taking a risk to save a kid.

NavyLCDR
December 10, 2012, 04:08 PM
Kudos to the police for taking a risk to save a kid.

I believe this is part of the problem. How about calling a spade a spade? Kudos to the police for taking a risk to save an ARMED CRIMINAL.

AlaskaMan
December 10, 2012, 04:25 PM
Somebody will probably disagree with this, so go ahead...

I'll never consider a 7 or 11 year old an ARMED CRIMINAL. I will consider them a child in need of help.

Cosmoline
December 10, 2012, 05:23 PM
They are really both at the same time. But when you're talking about pre-teens in particular, the responsibility lies with the very homes they sent these miscreants back to.

mnrivrat
December 10, 2012, 05:34 PM
the responsibility lies with the very homes they sent these miscreants back to.

100% +1 on that. It sounds like the 11 year old for sure needs a new home . (as does the 7 year old if he lives there also) My good friends grandaughter kept getting in trouble and she was pre-teen. From 9 years old she was out of control.

They finaly had to take her from her mother and make her a ward of the state. I don't pretend to know what the hell happens that makes these kids that way, but a loaded gun should be a clear sign the situation is dangerous and something needs to be done besides sending them home with a scolding.

smallbore
December 10, 2012, 05:51 PM
Does Portland have a 'non-arrest' policy when it comes to minors in possession of a firearm?

wannabeagunsmith
December 10, 2012, 06:49 PM
Well, just cause they got lucky this time dosen't mean 5-10-20+ years down the road they will.

TheCracker
December 10, 2012, 06:51 PM
Kudos to the police for taking a risk to save a kid.

This type of bleeding heart attitude is why we have laws not allowing the police to incarcerate juveniles. I say forget that. The cops should have taken no risk if they in fact did. These kids are typical rats that will end up selling dope and or murdering someone and end up being a leach on society as they are fed, housed and taken care of by tax payers when they finally get locked up as an adult.

They are a product of their upbringing and should be treated like the dangerous animals that they are.

Obviously their parents have zero control since the kid had to be caught again. They should lock the parents and kids up for a VERY long time IMO.

TheCracker
December 10, 2012, 07:04 PM
Somebody will probably disagree with this, so go ahead...

I'll never consider a 7 or 11 year old an ARMED CRIMINAL. I will consider them a child in need of help.

Good luck with that when they are trying to rob or kill you for kicks or a gang initiation. Some kids are not brought up to value life a normal folks do. They would just assume to kill you for the $50 in your pocket than get help.

Sorry but if a 7 year old point a gun at me and tells me they are going to blow my head off I will believe them and take appropriate action just as quick as I would a 27 year old.

Yes I have kids, and a 7 and 11 year old sure as heck knows better.

Ken451
December 10, 2012, 07:40 PM
Because of the boys’ ages, they were placed into the custody of their families. When the 11-year-old was taken home, he took off running. He was quickly caught again and left in the custody of his parents.

I'm sure that is going to accomplish a lot....

Anyone want to bet the kids were back out on the streets before the cops finished their paperwork?

Here's the kicker. Several Federal and State felonies committed by the criminals and whomever they obtained the gun from. So what happens to the criminals?

How do you know that someone (besides the kids) committed felonies? Maybe the kids stole the gun. Should the victim of the robbery be locked up?

I'll never consider a 7 or 11 year old an ARMED CRIMINAL. I will consider them a child in need of help.

You are right. Of course, the same is true for 25 year olds, 40 years olds...they all need help.

Of course if you let them get away with things like this when they are 7 and 11, we can be pretty sure they will be back at 13, 18, 25, 35.....

I really, really doubt that any "help" they will get will change their future, so the real question is: "how do we protect society?"


-

allaroundhunter
December 10, 2012, 07:44 PM
Regardless of who is pointing the gun, if it is aimed at me, I am legally justified in defending myself.

Would it be harder for me to shoot an 11 year old than a 25 year old, well, I imagine so, and I imagine it would be even harder living with it afterwards. However, I am not going to refuse to defend myself based on a criminal's age.

NavyLCDR
December 10, 2012, 07:50 PM
Here's a follow up:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2245712/Amy-Garrett-Portland-woman-held-gunpoint-boys-aged-7-11-attempted-carjacking.html

Notice how much punishment the boy got from his wonderful parents....walking the streets alone the next day. Bet if my kid even drew a picture of a gun at school that Child Protective Services would be breaking my door down an hour later.

oneounceload
December 10, 2012, 08:21 PM
I suspect that if you pointed your .45 in that kid's face, he would be running after wetting his pants. No need to fire

col.lemat
December 10, 2012, 09:01 PM
This takes place all the time. If I had the attitude its just a kid when I was in Nam I wouldnt be here today. Same thing happens today in Afghanistan. They dont even need to be able to walk to be deadly

AlaskaMan
December 10, 2012, 09:04 PM
Quote:
I'll never consider a 7 or 11 year old an ARMED CRIMINAL. I will consider them a child in need of help.

You are right. Of course, the same is true for 25 year olds, 40 years olds...they all need help.
Last time I checked, 25 year olds were not children, and are sufficiently worldly to form the necessary state of mind to be culpable for their actions.

Of course if you let them get away with things like this when they are 7 and 11, we can be pretty sure they will be back at 13, 18, 25, 35.....
So lets lock 'em up in prison, eh?

These kids are typical rats that will end up selling dope and or murdering someone and end up being a leach on society as they are fed, housed and taken care of by tax payers when they finally get locked up as an adult.
Especially when we have nothing but assumptions and guesswork to base it on. So lets get started early and lock 'em up now.

There's plenty of blame to go around based on the very little information provided in this case. All I was suggesting was to let the justice system run its course. It isn't perfect, but neither is the lynch mob mentality.

Tossing these children in the trash will guarantee the outcome you're predicting.

Ken451
December 10, 2012, 09:26 PM
Tossing these children in the trash will guarantee the outcome you're predicting.

Kind of jumping ahead of yourself, aren't you? I asked "how do we protect society?" I believe that is a more legitimate question than "how do we help these kids" by itself. If we don't protect society, we haven't helped the "kids" either.

However, your "I'll never consider a 7 or 11 year old an ARMED CRIMINAL" demonstrates denial. They were ARMED and they did commit CRIMINAL ACTS. Of course in this country, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty. But since they never get to trial, I guess you are right: they are never found guilty.

TheCracker
December 10, 2012, 09:35 PM
Well if the story is accurate, he told the lady that he would blow her head off as he pointed a gun at her.

I try not to live in Kum Ba Ya world. This kid needs to be locked up. Period. The 7 year old with him very well may just be following. This little punk that has the nerve to come up to the lady while she is being interviewed is obviously a danger to society. He is roaming re streets by himself just after being apprehended by the police not once but twice.

It is a shame that there are bleeding hearts that think children can do no wrong and don't understand what they are doing. Then recklessly pass laws that basically give them immunity to anything.

Neverwinter
December 10, 2012, 10:37 PM
Kind of jumping ahead of yourself, aren't you? I asked "how do we protect society?" I believe that is a more legitimate question than "how do we help these kids" by itself. If we don't protect society, we haven't helped the "kids" either.
You don't protect society by promoting incarceration over rehabilitation. His answer is still accurate.

Ken451
December 10, 2012, 10:51 PM
You don't protect society by promoting incarceration over rehabilitation. His answer is still accurate.
I have not seen where any "rehabilitation" we do accomplishes anything beyond a "feel good attitude". HOWEVER, my question is still unanswered: "how do we protect society?"

I did not say "incarceration", I just asked the simple question "how do we protect society?" I still haven't seen an answer.

AlaskaMan did say "All I was suggesting was to let the justice system run its course. It isn't perfect, but neither is the lynch mob mentality." Two things: 1) No one suggested lynching. And 2) most people here do suggest that the justice system handle this, not the juvenile "pat them on the back and tell them to be good little boys" system.

Impureclient
December 10, 2012, 10:51 PM
It's easy to defend them based on their young age when you weren't the one looking down the loaded barrel.
In a few years when they have gotten more experience, we will log into THR and read a post about how these children grew up and took somebody's life.

larryh1108
December 10, 2012, 11:02 PM
How many times does that cute little darling get before he's found to be a danger to society? He gets off until he actually pulls the trigger? Maybe he gets to play thug until he turns 16 or 18 without consequences? Maybe he can only have 3 violent acts a year until he is old enough to know better?

Inner city gangs recruit the 12, 13 and 14 year old kids to do their dirty work because they know they only get slaps on the wrist or "help" until they turn 18. Children of predator parents do need help but there comes a time when they are beyond help. Repeat offenders whether 12 or 22 should be treated accordingly. Some kids have rap sheets longer than your arm before they turn 14 and then they (records) get locked up to protect them? Serial killers have shown to be cruel to animals as kids. Being a predator is as much genetic as it is upbringing. Add both to the pot and you have a recipe for a very bad adult. I believe a kid knows right from wrong at a very young age. That should be the baseline, not a number.

Dnaltrop
December 10, 2012, 11:25 PM
Grew up in Portland, and there were plenty of monstrous children in the '80s... and "boys will be boys" was the order of the day.

One neighbor's kids mugged another neighbors, and the parents fabricated an alibi to get them off the hook. Attacks, vandalism, Breaking and Entering, vehicle theft.. a steady stream for almost a decade until they hit 18 and adult consequences.

It made my day when one of the neighbors around the block broke one of the offender's knees sideways while they burgled his car.

I do take great pleasure at the lengthy sentences some of them are serving right now, but nothing was done about them until they became "productive" adults.

I guarantee you, there are some "kids" out there, so deeply evil, so disturbed, that there is only one eventual destination for them... and it can't come quickly enough. They will spend their youths sowing fear and discord and what they reap, they earned.

The unfortunate ones are the kids in the wake of such malcontents, who would otherwise be "okay" save for the urging of the bad apples, and we can only hope that something sets them straight before serious damage is done.

Recently enough. a large group of "kids" were attacking and kicking my dog through the fence, in my driveway, and their response when I came out to stop them was to tell me to "Suck their **** and what am I going to do? there are more of them than there are of me."

Thankfully a neighbor was mowing his lawn next to me as a witness, and I can say that I ran them off without laying hands on a single one. ( I may be crippled, but at 6'5" before the boots, I can sure as hell look scary when I need to!)

Even in an obvious self defense situation, I would truly fear the court of public opinion if a "child" threatened to blow my head off, and received an "adult" reaction in response.

bldsmith
December 11, 2012, 12:03 AM
On the local news this evening they reported this is not the first problem the 11yo has had. He has vandalized homes, cars, and businesses in the area. He has threatened neighbors with knives. It is clear this young man needs some serious correction that his parents seem unable to provide. I agree we need to try to stop the behavior through whatever means necessary. It may require him to be locked up for a while. This law preventing children under 12 from being arrested is just wrong imo.

NavyLCDR
December 11, 2012, 12:11 AM
I suspect that if you pointed your .45 in that kid's face, he would be running after wetting his pants. No need to fire
And the police would probably be knocking on my door to answer the complaint as to why I threatened the little angel with a gun. Unfortunately, when you are faced with midget criminals like this, you are just going to be wrong (polite word) no matter what you do. I would rather be faced with a punk who is over the age of 18.

Dnaltrop
December 11, 2012, 12:28 AM
http://www.katu.com/news/local/Boy-accused-in-attempted-carjacking-has-history-of-neighborhood-trouble-182916141.html

There's one of the updated articles.

"A neighbor, Naomi Solomon, said she too has had trouble with the boy.

"He asked me for money and stuff like that, and I told him I would call the cops," she said.

Solomon said the boy confronts her whenever he sees her walking past his home and he threatens her when she won't give him money.

"He said he would hurt me," Solomon said.

A dentist, Dr. Ed Hagen, who works right next to the crime scene, also said he had trouble with the 11-year-old a weekend before the attempted carjacking.

"He and a few of his friends even threw rocks through my dental office building," Hagen said.

Hagen said he's more concerned about the grade-schooler's future than he is about the glass that he's already replaced."

Here's another, bit more information here from the Oregonian.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/12/neighbors_describe_11-year-old.html

"Residents of the Rosewood area said the 11-year-old is notorious for bothering younger children, causing vandalism to church and other business property, shoplifting at nearby stores, trespassing at a nearby apartment complex and boasting about his access to a gun.

Garrett, the woman who accused the 11-year-old of threatening her with the gun, told The Oregonian Monday that the boy's father started swearing at police after they responded to Saturday's call.

"He was screaming at the cops, saying he has a right to know why his son was in the back of a cop car," Garrett said."

jfh
December 11, 2012, 01:00 AM
It would seem to me that this is a situation ripe for intervention by the State Department of Social Services (or whatever it is). I.e., getting the parents declared unfit, and removing the children from this home.

Does that kind of intervention happen in WA, and / or Portland?

Jim H.

Apachedriver
December 11, 2012, 02:51 AM
I'm sure that CPS or Social Services and the rest of them will get to it just as soon as they're through intervening with all those poor kids that are getting spankings.

gunnutery
December 11, 2012, 08:32 AM
"how do we protect society?"

Sorry, I'm going to be a pessimist on this one. My only answer to that question would be mentoring. The kicker is that it would take so many mentors to do anything to change the downward spiral our society is in. Kids today are bombarded with ads encouraging them to be selfish ("you deserve xyz product") and plenty of kids are just babysat with TV or video games, some of which have all sorts of mature themes. A lot of good folks that could do something are already too busy or too comfortable in their own bubbles. Another option would be to give parents free reign back to disiplining (obviously not abusing) their children with corporal punishment without fear of getting charged for spanking (MN has taken kids away from parents who were seen spanking their kids). Our society is probably the richest, yet we have the most people on psych meds. Our society has far too many problems to give a simple answer and solution.

In regards to the juveniles in question: In Iowa we can charge them and place them in a shelter or detention for aggravated misdemeanors and felonies. I guess in OR they can't do that or I'm pretty sure they would have.

oneounceload
December 11, 2012, 08:58 AM
Originally Posted by oneounceload View Post
I suspect that if you pointed your .45 in that kid's face, he would be running after wetting his pants. No need to fire
And the police would probably be knocking on my door to answer the complaint as to why I threatened the little angel with a gun. Unfortunately, when you are faced with midget criminals like this, you are just going to be wrong (polite word) no matter what you do. I would rather be faced with a punk who is over the age of 18.

Not when he was pointing his gun at me first - I'd call that the ultimate game of chicken

I worked for a while in a school where those kids who were menaces to society were sent from public school. I had the elementary class - kids from 2nd through 5th grade school-wise, some a little older from being retained once or twice. These were kids with rap sheets a mile long at the age of 6-11, including attempted homicide, arson, armed robbery, attempted bombing, etc. One got out of hand one morning and the on-site sheriff deputy removed him - he threatened to kill the deputy, and actually tried to get his gun. That earned him a trip to juvie; before they left, he tried to escape from the patrol car while handcuffed and threatened to burn down the deputy's house

He was 9 years old

Personally, they should have been subjected to a retroactive abortion, but there is no rehabilitation for these kids - we were following the law until they were old enough to be sent to a permanent facility

Pilot
December 11, 2012, 09:37 AM
If you get fatally shot by an eleven year old, you are just as dead as if you got fatally shot by an eighteen year old. These kids need to be removed from their current environment, and re-programmed.

87jeep
December 11, 2012, 12:29 PM
Real world.... The kids never see the light of day and are made a example of. Everyone then knows what happens when you point a gun at someone.

Once the examples are out there, seen by all, people learn how to act civil at all ages!

Ken451
December 11, 2012, 12:43 PM
If someone is 11 years old and acts like this and especially has a substantial history of crimes like this, he is probably well beyond anything his parents CAN handle. He is probably that way BECAUSE his parents are incapable.

Can ANYONE successfully intervene? I have serious doubts. I suspect the best solution for all is to keep him locked up.

PERHAPS if authorities actually DID something about kids like this, they wouldn't get this way in the first place. But an institutional approach of "they are too young" to be punished obviously encourages them.

AABEN
December 11, 2012, 01:19 PM
Somebody will probably disagree with this, so go ahead...

I'll never consider a 7 or 11 year old an ARMED CRIMINAL. I will consider them a child in need of help.
You need to watch the TV show on kids that KILL.

scaatylobo
December 11, 2012, 02:41 PM
I was an LEO for 26 years and I can PROMISE you that when a judge lets a "child" get away with a CRIME - they learn NOTHING.

If you doubt that then go to a real court and see for yourself.

the "children" that were arrested for CRIMES,were arrested over and over again until they were old enough to go to jail and prison.

Spare the rod = spoil the child .

was a saying when I was a kid,it works.

And NO that does not mean to abuse anyone ever.

BUT no punishment [ real punishment ] means no lesson.

Getting shot by a child will not harm you any the less, and the really sad part is that 'child' will not pay for that crime.

armoredman
December 11, 2012, 02:46 PM
I personally know a young man who will die in prison, serving a life sentence garnered while age 14, for Murder 1. He will die a virgin, never having had his 21st birthday drunken bash, graduate high school, or marry and start a family...and he's proud of it.
I refuse to work a Minors unit, as the laws regarding their "care" are very leftist, and require staff to get as close as getting hurt as they can BEFORE they can use any defensive techniques. These are not children in any sense of the word, they are murderous thugs that happen to be young.
Judging solely from what I've read here, the kid is actively supported by his father in this. Wonder if HE has a long record. This "child" will be in a Minors Unit in a short time, especially since he KNOWS he can get away with anything, being let go to his Dad for attempted armed robbery and carjacking, instead of facing any penalties. He will only be emboldened, and someone is going to get hurt, mistaking this thug as a "child".
I see the end product of this liberal chain of logic, every day. Maybe it works on some, but the ones I see, no, they STILL think the world "owes" them anything they want, no matter what it is, no matter who's it is, and everyone is a card board cutout on their stage.

Dnaltrop
December 11, 2012, 04:45 PM
The Dad was just arrested ( and yes Armoredman, he does indeed have a history)

http://www.kgw.com/news/Adult-arrested-in-11-7-year-old-gun-investigation-183031091.html

"Police on Tuesday served a search warrant in connection with the attempted carjacking of a woman in Portland who said an 11-year-old and 7-year-old boy tried to rob her at gunpoint. Around 11 a.m., investigators arrested Joseph Charlton for having an unsecured firearm at the home on Southeast 160th Avenue and Alder Street. "

larryh1108
December 11, 2012, 04:57 PM
I suggest that if any child is released to his parents after he commits a violent crime then the parents will be held accountable for any further actions done by the child. They take responsibility for him, they take responsibility for his actions. Simple, they do the time for his crimes. Parents should also have the ability to decline to take the child home because they know he will continue with his violent ways. If the parents don't think he can be rehabilitated then the courts should decide the punishment. That should sort out those who were misguided for a moment from the habitual criminals who believe their gang is better than their home.

NavyLCDR
December 11, 2012, 05:21 PM
From the last article linked to:

"But a judge could decide at a later date to jail the juveniles, if it is deemed in the best interest of the kids."

Send them to jail for their own protection. One of these days they are going to commit another violent crime against a person who is willing to defend themselves with their own gun.

Dnaltrop
December 11, 2012, 06:13 PM
Looks like an interview before the Father's arrest.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Attempted-carjacking-Dad-says-hes-trying-to-get-son-on-right-path-182934111.html

""My son basically ran and tried to chase after him to try to get it back from him," the father said. "Once they got outside, apparently she was sitting outside, the younger kid had approached her and started making reference to the gun of some sort. ... My boy didn't actually realize what he was saying to her and he turned around and all he heard was 'show her the piece, show her the piece' and he said, 'Shut up, you're being stupid.'"

and

""I've done this for 25 years, and I've never heard of anything like this before," said Portland Police Bureau Lt. Frank Gorgoni, who hoped his presence at the Centennial Community Association meeting could calm homeowners' concerns.

"Every officer knows where these kids live, the address of the houses, there's an extra patrol," he told the crowd.

What he heard, though, were new stories of neighbors' run-ins with the same 11-year-old accused in Saturday's attempted carjacking outside the Freedom Foursquare Church, including what Leslie Hendrix said happened when the boy stole her son's scooter.

"He actually came back a week later and kind of flashed a knife at my husband," she said."

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Adult-arrested-in-11-7-year-old-gun-investigation-183031091.html

Kids are in protective custody now as well.

"Charlton was arrested Tuesday morning for having an unsecured firearm at their home on SE 160th Avenue and Alder Street. The Oregon Department of Human Services also took the 11-year-old boy into protective custody, along with a 4-year-old girl and 9-year-old boy who were in the home.
Neighbors said the 11-year old often bragged about having access to a gun. "He's told my brother, he's told other kids around the apartments around here that his dad had a gun and he could get a hold of it anytime he wanted to. And obviously, it happened," said Audryanna Waldron, who lives nearby."

"Charlton (pictured at left in a 2007 mug shot) has a criminal record as well. He was convicted in the past of assault, DUII and driving with a suspended license.

Charlton is the first person to be arrested under a new Portland city ordinance prohibiting adults from leaving unsecured firearms where minors can access them."

Teachu2
December 11, 2012, 06:25 PM
Last week, the local PD shot a teenager to death after he had shot at them. His prison-tatted (on his face, even) parental unit held a press conference accusing the PD of murder....

Products of their environment, subsidized by the blood of bleeding hearts and our tax dollars. I spend 10+ hours a day trying to break the chain dragging down the next generation.

oneounceload
December 11, 2012, 09:18 PM
I suggest that if any child is released to his parents after he commits a violent crime then the parents will be held accountable for any further actions done by the child. They take responsibility for him, they take responsibility for his actions.

Seriously? Think about it - they didn't take any responsibility in breeding the young "misguided" youth in the first place. IF he even has some form of a parent not dead or in jail, they most likely don't even know where he is at any give moment
This is the result of a societal shift away from being responsible and suffering the consequences to one of "it's not your fault" mentality

larryh1108
December 11, 2012, 09:46 PM
So they should not accept taking him back if they have to do the time for his actions. Simple! Releasing a violent juvenile to his parents is like putting the chicken back into the henhouse with the fox still inside. Someone needs to be accountable. Make it the people or person who takes him in after committing a violent act. I don't believe no one is responsible while the general public is in danger. Someone has to be accountable.

igousigloo
December 11, 2012, 10:11 PM
I feel that the problem lies in the thinking that the bleeding hearts have that the child can do no wrong. And Dr. Spock told us how to raise our children. We should go back to "spare the rod, spoil the child". I have a scanner on 24-7 and our policemen spend a lot of time getting kids out of bed and taking them to school. A lot of parents do not have any control of their kids.

phillipduran
December 11, 2012, 10:29 PM
How should an armed citizen proceed in a situation like this?

I would think the gun in the hands of the kids removes any disparity of force. He can now kill you just like anyone else who has a gun.

P5 Guy
December 12, 2012, 02:39 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_School_for_Boys

You didn't want to be taken to the White House. We must make the decision rehabilitation or punishment.

Kendahl
December 13, 2012, 01:03 AM
I used to work for a major railroad. Prior to legal, civilian concealed carry, railroad security personnel were sworn in as reserve deputy sheriffs so that they could carry on duty. They showed me a shoot / don't shoot training video. One of the situations showed a police officer, who was responding to a shooting report, being confronted by a ten year old kid with one hand hidden underneath his shirt. It was a "do shoot". After a short delay, to give the viewer time to make a decision, the kid pulled out a pistol and shot the officer. The video went on to explain that the kid had shot a playmate and was running away when he encountered the officer.

gym
December 13, 2012, 11:18 AM
If you aim a loaded gun at me and it appears to be real, I will have no choice other than to stop you. If I thought I could do it without shooting the kid I would, but once that finger starts to move, all bets are off. I have too much responsibility to take care of my family, a 92 year old mother and 4 grand kids, to allow some misguided youth shoot me for any reason or at any age.

Neverwinter
December 13, 2012, 11:24 PM
I have not seen where any "rehabilitation" we do accomplishes anything beyond a "feel good attitude".

It's not hard to look.

http://ccj.sagepub.com/content/19/1/114.short
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418828700089411

HOWEVER, my question is still unanswered: "how do we protect society?" And 2) most people here do suggest that the justice system handle this, not the juvenile "pat them on the back and tell them to be good little boys" system.
You protect society by reducing crime. You reduce crime by reducing the factors which produce criminal actors, and by rehabilitating criminal actors into lawful members of society. The post that you responded to was an objection to the mentality that nothing can be done with regards to juveniles, since the data does not support that belief.

What we know about brain development supports the position that treating developing minors differently can be more effective than applying a system geared toward offenders which are not at such a formative developmental stage.

Dnaltrop
December 14, 2012, 01:34 AM
Apparently the kid managed to fire 4 rounds off in the backyard before the attempted carjacking, and will be facing charges along with his Felon father.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/12/court_affidavit_said_11-year-o.html

"The 11-year-old Portland boy accused of trying to carjack and rob a woman at gunpoint with his dad's gun on Saturday had fired the gun into the air four times behind his house earlier that day, according to a court affidavit released Wednesday."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/12/dad_boy_face_gun_charges_linke.html#incart_river_default#incart_m-rpt-2#incart_hbx

"Multnomah County prosecutors Tuesday filed robbery and weapons allegations against an 11-year-old Portland boy who police say tried to carjack and rob a woman at gunpoint last weekend."

Double Naught Spy
December 14, 2012, 08:47 AM
If you aim a loaded gun at me and it appears to be real, I will have no choice other than to stop you. If I thought I could do it without shooting the kid I would, but once that finger starts to move, all bets are off.

Yep. People frequently claim special circumstances why their kids, mentally deficient loved ones, siblings, neighbors, etc. should not have been shot, hit with a board, tasered, arrested, etc., despite them being involved in the commission of a crime.

Several years ago in Garland, TX, and officer shot a kid with a knife. His sister called the police on him because of his eratic and dangerous behaviors. The dash cam of the squad car showed the kid advancing on the officer as they crossed the field of view more than once, officer with his gun drawn and yelling warnings at the kid. The officer finally had to shoot the kid. The sister was thankful. The parents were outraged. The officer was exonerated. I can't find the vid, but here is a reference link.
http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/2000_3261453/officer-fatally-shoots-knife-wielding-teen.html

Here is a better news account...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48454

He was cleared...
http://lubbockonline.com/stories/022801/sta_022801092.shtml

So no, contrary to a statement made above, shooting a child does not mean you will be hung out to dry.

rem44m
December 14, 2012, 10:18 AM
Somebody will probably disagree with this, so go ahead...I'll never consider a 7 or 11 year old an ARMED CRIMINAL. I will consider them a child in need of help.


Alaskaman- I was thinking the same thing, and to be honest I see that in people of all ages, we are all God's children and all of us need the same things in regards to love, attention and help.

No matter who the criminal threatening your life is, it is always going to be someone's child, brother, friend, uncle, sister ect.

Just a crappy situation, child or adult.

Ken451
December 14, 2012, 10:54 AM
all of us need the same things in regards to love, attention and help.

1) they are not going to get "love and attention" from some child services agency. This needs to come from quality parents. Unfortunately, breeding is much easier than responsible parenting. Too many people who breed have no clue, and no interest, in proper raising of children.

2) unfortunately, by this point in their lives, they are a bunch of years past where they critically needed "love and attention". NOW they have figured out their own way of getting "attention" and it is not good.

TheCracker
December 14, 2012, 06:51 PM
Somebody will probably disagree with this, so go ahead...I'll never consider a 7 or 11 year old an ARMED CRIMINAL. I will consider them a child in need of help.


Alaskaman- I was thinking the same thing, and to be honest I see that in people of all ages, we are all God's children and all of us need the same things in regards to love, attention and help.

No matter who the criminal threatening your life is, it is always going to be someone's child, brother, friend, uncle, sister ect.

Just a crappy situation, child or adult.

I bet you wouldn't think that if he was raping your wife or daughter.

Crappy situation? So I
Come up and shoot you in the face and its a crappy situation?

I'm at a loss for what to say about this type of thinking.

A crook is a criminal that chose to put themselves in a criminal act. They usually deserve more punishment than they get for their "crappy situation"

Shadow 7D
December 14, 2012, 07:05 PM
Kids are DANGEROUS
they fall into two types that go bad
one is the 'kinda' innocent, they don't think or know the consequences of their action, and are often being led on by more exierenced (older) peer group/role modle

these are the kids that do something cause of peer pressure and are used by gangs cause they know they will skate with lettle punishment.

Then are cousiously evil ones, they don't care, either cause the consequences aren't sever or cause they just don't care. An adult mugger will hesitate to pull the trigger, is $20 worth a life sentence, he will beat you and eventually flee if he can't get what he wants.

a kid, will shoot you (single track mind, make threat, up threat, act out, carry out threat) in part because of the disparity, in part because of the 'loss in face' but mostly because they don't think about it, they do.

Frankly I'm impressed that she wasn't hurt, and strongly suspect that someone put the kid up to it.

Neverwinter
December 14, 2012, 11:56 PM
1) they are not going to get "love and attention" from some child services agency.

But they can from foster parents when placed by the child services agency.

This needs to come from quality parents. Unfortunately, breeding is much easier than responsible parenting. Too many people who breed have no clue, and no interest, in proper raising of children.
You can also protect society by providing the access and knowledge of family planning so that people who don't want to be parents don't end up as parents. It's more proactive than reacting to the aftermath.

2) unfortunately, by this point in their lives, they are a bunch of years past where they critically needed "love and attention". NOW they have figured out their own way of getting "attention" and it is not good.
This can be remedied in juveniles with rehabilitation. Not all of them, but it's beneficial to society to have productive citizens instead of unproductive prisoners.

Ken451
December 15, 2012, 12:19 AM
Neverwinter, I think you are fantasizing.

Yes, ideal foster parents are great. They are also rare.

If you haven't paid attention, there is "family planning" already available and it's been available for a long time. They don't think they need it ("she can't get pregnant"), or they want the government support ("free" money and food and housing) that illegitimate kids get for them.

Again, great rehabilitation may do some good. Great rehabilitation is rare.

Neverwinter
December 16, 2012, 09:37 AM
Yes, ideal foster parents are great. They are also rare.

If you haven't paid attention, there is "family planning" already available and it's been available for a long time. They don't think they need it ("she can't get pregnant"), or they want the government support ("free" money and food and housing) that illegitimate kids get for them.

Again, great rehabilitation may do some good. Great rehabilitation is rare.
You're downplaying the effects of foster parenting and rehabilitation because it doesn't fit your preconceived beliefs about how we should protect society. It seems that your question about "how do we protect society?" wasn't actually a question.

Availability of family planning doesn't do much if they don't know about what's available to them. Observe the pronounced teen pregnancy rates in areas of abstinence-only education. Also, accessibility to family planning is under attack: http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/2012/12/planned-parenthood-files-two-new-lawsuits-against-texas.html/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-planned-parenthood-sues-over-medication-abortions-20121212,0,7428880.story

Ken451
December 16, 2012, 09:44 AM
You're downplaying the effects of foster parenting and rehabilitation because it doesn't fit your preconceived beliefs about how we should protect society.

I am just looking at the real world.

Neverwinter
December 16, 2012, 09:48 AM
I am just looking at the real world.
The real world which has journal articles observing the effectiveness of rehabilitation.

Like the people who say that we should ban guns to prevent spree killings, you want to address the symptoms rather than the cause.

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