Delaware Drops Virginia - Info on OH, MI & WI


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Gary Slider
December 10, 2012, 11:12 PM
Delaware this morning removed Virginia from the list of states it honors. I believe this was caused by Virginia allowing training to take place over the internet. I am not sure if VA will drop DE. Time will tell. www.handgunlaw.us has been updated to show this change in who honors whose permit/license. http://attorneygeneral.delaware.gov/crime/concealedweapons.shtml

Both Ohio and Michigan are taking up legislation this week on changing their Firearm Laws. The bills as passed by one house make major changes. In Michigan Registration/Places off Limits are a couple of the biggies that could be removed. In Ohio they are talking about Universal Recognition, Loaded mags outside the firearm would no longer equal a loaded firearm even with the firearm in the trunk and the mag is in the glove box plus other changes. I am not sure what the outcome will be in these two states but hoping for the best.

Wisconsinís Concealed Carry Law has been in effect for a year. So far WI has issued about 144,000 Concealed Weapons Licenses. That means residents of WI have spent over $7,000,000 to obtain a state license to legally carry a firearm. That does not count what they spent on Firearms/Ammunition/Holsters/Ammo Carriers/Training and other odds and ends to obtain that license. Law Enforcement is not reporting any major problems

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bbuddtec
December 10, 2012, 11:45 PM
FWIW, Great job, and thank you!

B

Alnamvet68
December 11, 2012, 09:59 AM
The truth of the matter is that Virginia has never had a formal written agreement with Delaware insofar as reciprocity is concerned. The informal agreement to honor Virginia/Delaware ccw's no longer exists for Delaware, while Virginia is waiting to update its list of jurisdictions that they will informally honor.

See www.vsp.state.va.us./Firearms_Reciprocity.shtm for further clarification.

tyeo098
December 11, 2012, 10:58 AM
Dammit.

Internet training has been allowed to take place for a while now, are they just noticing this?

Alnamvet68
December 11, 2012, 11:03 AM
Call me old school, but I am of the opinion that internet "training" is a poor substitute for face to face, hands on training, coupled with live fire exercises with the handgun you wish to carry concealed.

RhinoDefense
December 11, 2012, 11:10 AM
With regard to MI and "pistol free zones", the change they are trying to make is that you can take additional training and get an "enhanced" licensed that allows you to be exempt from the pistol free zones. If you don't have this additional training and enhanced license, then the pistol free zones apply to you.

tyeo098
December 11, 2012, 12:37 PM
Call me old school, but I am of the opinion that internet "training" is a poor substitute for face to face, hands on training, coupled with live fire exercises with the handgun you wish to carry concealed.
Call me even older (circa Sept 17, 1787) school, but there shouldn't be a need for training at all.
We don't have issues with CHP'ers here in VA, even with our online training.

Gary Slider
December 11, 2012, 12:40 PM
States don't have someone watching every state they honor. Many only look once a year at the other states. This is probably the reason DE is getting around to it now. I am hearing that it may be because VA Dropped their fingerprint requirement. Only those in DE know for sure. Thing is DE non longer honors VA.

Mississippi changed their law and has an Enhanced Permit/License. Get some extra training and they endorse your Carry Permit/License and you can carry in many places the state lists as off limits. Don't get the training and you can't carry in those places. Looks like MI is going the same route.

I am wondering if non residents would be able to qualify in MI. In Mississippi only residents can get the endorsements. MI will have to pass it first then we will get to read the small print.

Kaeto
December 11, 2012, 01:51 PM
It's looking doubtful that the Mi bill will pass due to the Gov. insisting on changes like giving no guns signs force of law before he'll sign it.

Pilot
December 11, 2012, 01:54 PM
Delaware is a very weird state.

RhinoDefense
December 11, 2012, 03:07 PM
Mississippi changed their law and has an Enhanced Permit/License. Get some extra training and they endorse your Carry Permit/License and you can carry in many places the state lists as off limits. Don't get the training and you can't carry in those places. Looks like MI is going the same route.
Which is funny in a way because in MI if you have a CPL, you can open carry in places that you cannot conceal carry. Doesn't require any additional training.

JellyJar
December 11, 2012, 04:11 PM
I have an idea on how to resolve this conflict. If the state of Virginia would issue permits two ways. One, if the training was done over the internet and the other if the training was done in person.

That way Delaware could honor the in-person permit but not the over the internet permit and the residents of Virginia could choose which they wanted.

stanmo
December 11, 2012, 04:39 PM
"Internet Training" sounds like a joke.

tyeo098
December 11, 2012, 04:46 PM
"Internet Training" sounds like a joke.
http://forums.petrisimolin.com/media/18316/The-Internet-is-Serious-Business.jpg

Alnamvet68
December 11, 2012, 04:55 PM
"Internet Training" sounds like a joke.

Yes, I find it disturbing and dangerous as well. As a Virginian, I remember the requirement was an in class training session along with range time with the weapon one wanted to carry conceal, and had to qualify with on the range in order to be eligible to apply for a permit. Acceptible alternatives was training and subsequent appointment as a LEO, or training and appointment as a federal LEO, or documented military training in handguns coupled with marksmanship awards. Just taking a 3d grade level internet course where 99.7% of the people pass (and you get about 4 chances to pass) is not my idea of someone who has the necessary skills and training in safe weapons handling, of having a reasonable understanding of where and when it is justified to employ deadly force if necessary. IMHO, an understanding of the applicable laws governing concealed carry, where one can carry concealed, what the statutes are in regards to discharging your firearm at a "bad guy", and the consequences should one make a mistake should be part of the training, along with atleast 5 to 20 hours of range time.

tyeo098
December 11, 2012, 05:13 PM
Thats an awfully slippery slope you're on there... I'd watch my step.

Who pays for this training? The state sure as heck wont. So the costs are passed on to the customer. Most range level classes cost 175$+ which is something most people cant just drop in order to protect themselves and their families. So are they screwed?

Everyone has a right to defend themselves and their families. The only thing 'training' and 'good reason' and fees accomplishes is prevent those of lower income from being able to protect themselves (Jim Crow laws, anyone?) Fees, training, good reason, its all just poll taxes on a different right.

Imaging the poo that would fly if you had to pass a test to buy a Bible/Torah/Qu'ran? Ideas have hurt a heck of a lot more people than any guns ever had.

Its a right, not a privileged that is granted at the whim of an elected official. Don't allow others to be taken away, and they wont allow yours to be taken away.

ENDGAME: Vermont has Constitutional Carry, no training, no permit, 18+? Carry a gun. They also have one of, if not THE lowest murder rate in the country.

unclenunzie
December 11, 2012, 05:29 PM
^^^^^^ this.

Kaeto
December 11, 2012, 05:31 PM
Which is funny in a way because in MI if you have a CPL, you can open carry in places that you cannot conceal carry. Doesn't require any additional training.

That's another thing the Gov. wants gone in order to sign the bill.

W.E.G.
December 11, 2012, 05:43 PM
Police have hours and hours of "hands-on" training, and look what good it does.

When I got my CHP in Virginia the first year "shall-issue" went into effect, I used my Virginia Hunter's Safety certificate that I got from my junior high school "rod and gun club" to show "proof of training."

I don't really remember what we studied - if anything - to get the junior high school certificate. I might have had to take a test. But, since it had been twenty years since junior high school, I didn't remember much from "rod and gun club" class. I do vaguely remember reading books on guns (that I checked-out from the junior high school library) during rod-and-gun-club class.

Those were the days.

Delaware just hates the idea that anybody from the south might own a gun, let alone actually bring it with them on a visit their flat and sandy state. It probably boggles their mind that anybody in the south might actually "have the internet." I'm pretty sure every elected official north of the Mason-Dixon Line thinks everybody from south of it is illiterate. Northeast disease is hard to stamp out.

I say CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY for all 50 states.

I am so tired of nanny-state government.

481
December 11, 2012, 05:51 PM
I say CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY for all 50 states.

I am so tired of nanny-state government.

You and me both, brother.......you and me both.

Not looking forward to the next four years. ;)

Alnamvet68
December 11, 2012, 06:06 PM
Thats an awfully slippery slope you're on there... I'd watch my step.

Who pays for this training? The state sure as heck wont. So the costs are passed on to the customer. Most range level classes cost 175$+ which is something most people cant just drop in order to protect themselves and their families. So are they screwed?

Everyone has a right to defend themselves and their families. The only thing 'training' and 'good reason' and fees accomplishes is prevent those of lower income from being able to protect themselves (Jim Crow laws, anyone?) Fees, training, good reason, its all just poll taxes on a different right.

Imaging the poo that would fly if you had to pass a test to buy a Bible/Torah/Qu'ran? Ideas have hurt a heck of a lot more people than any guns ever had.

Its a right, not a privileged that is granted at the whim of an elected official. Don't allow others to be taken away, and they wont allow yours to be taken away.

ENDGAME: Vermont has Constitutional Carry, no training, no permit, 18+? Carry a gun. They also have one of, if not THE lowest murder rate in the country.

Anecdotal evidence regarding Vermont's ccw laws and its crime rates still doesn't get one out of the hurt locker if one is involved in a shooting, and when cross examined on the witness stand (should the case go to court) to detail exactly what experience and training a ccw had, "why the internet, of course" will not exactly endear a defendant in front of a judge and/or jury.

As far as not having the funds for training, well, since we're talking about concealed carry, where exactly does this "po" person get the funds to buy a handgun and ammo. One needs to practice, practice, practice if one wants to be proficient in the safe handling of a handgun, and the cost of the gun, ammo, range time is not exactly free.

Red herring anyone?

stanmo
December 11, 2012, 06:09 PM
Who pays for this training? The state sure as heck wont. So the costs are passed on to the customer. Most range level classes cost 175$+ which is something most people cant just drop in order to protect themselves and their families. So are they screwed?

Where do they get money for guns ammo and range time? I don't care to have someone carrying a gun that doesn't know anything about one.

Everyone has a right to defend themselves and their families. The only thing 'training' and 'good reason' and fees accomplishes is prevent those of lower income from being able to protect themselves :confused:(Jim Crow laws, anyone?) Fees, training, good reason, its all just poll taxes on a different right.:confused:

I'm all for Training and "Good Reason"

Imaging the poo that would fly if you had to pass a test to buy a Bible/Torah/Qu'ran? Ideas have hurt a heck of a lot more people than any guns ever had.

Its a right, not a privileged that is granted at the whim of an elected official. Don't allow others to be taken away, and they wont allow yours to be taken away.

Yes

ENDGAME: Vermont has Constitutional Carry, no training, no permit, 18+? Carry a gun. They also have one of, if not THE lowest murder rate in the country.

Vermont and New Hampshire have fewer Morons per capita than other states :evil:

Alnamvet68
December 11, 2012, 06:15 PM
Vermont and New Hampshire have fewer Morons per capita than other states :evil:

Apologies in advance for my observation and question, but who exactly did the good folks in VT and NH vote for this last election? 176078
;)

bigfatdave
December 11, 2012, 06:30 PM
mandatory training is pointless anyway

tyeo098
December 11, 2012, 10:55 PM
Anecdotal evidence regarding Vermont's ccw laws and its crime rates still doesn't get one out of the hurt locker if one is involved in a shooting, and when cross examined on the witness stand (should the case go to court) to detail exactly what experience and training a ccw had, "why the Internet, of course" will not exactly endear a defendant in front of a judge and/or jury.

Imagine if one is involved in said shooting in VT, they have NO training requirement. Your comment is interesting, but irrelevant.

As far as not having the funds for training, well, since we're talking about concealed carry, where exactly does this "po" person get the funds to buy a handgun and ammo. One needs to practice, practice, practice if one wants to be proficient in the safe handling of a handgun, and the cost of the gun, ammo, range time is not exactly free.
And you were questioning me about a red herring? :rolleyes:

You do what is available within your means. I when I was a po' college student, I saved and saved until I could buy a box (yes A BOX, 50 rds) of 9mm, with which I could pay 10$ and go to the range and practice. I was not there every weekend, and just saving for my CZ75B took me a friggen' while.

Time spent at the range and practicing should be a personal choice, not a government mandated requirement.

Where do they get money for guns ammo and range time? I don't care to have someone carrying a gun that doesn't know anything about one.
They do it within their means. Its a PERSONAL choice that should be based on discretionary funds and available time. Guns are expensive enough as it is. To add more 'poll taxes' on top to be able to utilize a right is just wrong (and in cases where the added funds would keep the firearms out of the hands of low income minority groups, Jim-Crow-Era Grade A Racism).

I'm all for Training and "Good Reason"
Excuse me? :what: I should not have to show a reason that I'm being stalked/harassed/murdered in order to carry my firearm. NOR should that reason have to hold to some 'standard' that is on the spot generated by some LEO who doesn't like me because of the color of my skin/hair/national origin/gender/sex o. etc.

A good situation is the 'shall issue' system. I'm not a crook (my butt still hurts from the background check) I don't have any records saying I'm crazy, and I meet a few certain other requirements by being a good, law abiding citizen.

An IDEAL situation is Constitutional Carry, there is no need for a permit card, the system has faith in me that I AM a good law abiding citizen, and by my rights not being taken away by due process, I am granted by [insert creator here] the rights to carry any firearm however I may choose.

As for the 'fewer morons per capita' maybe we should ref. this chart when deciding firearms laws http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2010/05/state-iq-estimates-2009.html

mandatory training is pointless anyway
Criminals carry guns without training anyways, why should we be subject to more scrutiny for following the law?

Bottom Line: The more good guys with guns, the less the bad guys will want to be bad, as they fear who may be packing and who is not.

EDIT: The problem with long posts is my thoughts easily get scattered, please do not argue semantics and only see the meaning in my post. Thanks.

Twmaster
December 13, 2012, 10:57 PM
"Internet Training" sounds like a joke.
So, did you participate in the Internet training? Didya? I thought not...

I did. I took the course and have applied for and am awaiting my Non-Resident VA permit. While it was not anywhere near as good (IMHO) as an in-person instructor led class it was damn-well better than nothing. The course was taught by an NRA Certified Instructor. And it was VERY heavy on safety. The part that was missing was law. They covered the basics but did not cover every detail of the laws regarding a CHP in VA.

Now, having said the above... Honestly, I thought the course was well presented. Much better than somebody's 20 year old hunter safety course which they've mostly forgotten.

As to training. It's the responsibility of every firearms owner, especially those with permits to train, train, train.

Attending your class (online or not) to get your permit is not the end of the training. IMHO.

@Gary Slider: I had to submit a fingerprint card with my application packet. So it seems VA still requires that. Let's see how long it takes DE to figure out that many counties in Iowa, Oregon and Colorado also accept online training.

Gary Slider
December 13, 2012, 11:01 PM
Mike, You list your residence as Texas so you applied as a non resident. The Residents don't have to but the Non Residents do. I think this is the reason Wisconsin will honor the VA Non Resident and not the resident.

Twmaster
December 14, 2012, 01:26 AM
Good grief. Gary, I don't know how you and your partner at handgunlaw.us can keep it all straight. What a idiotic nightmare.

Gary Slider
December 14, 2012, 01:38 AM
Mike, That is not the only one. Go to this link. That is the notice page at Handgunlaw.us before you can add the permit/licenses you have and build a map that shows you what states you are legal in. That Notice page has a listing of quirks in how some states honor each other and things the map can't reflect. It is getting more and more idiotic.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/CreateAMapNotice.pdf

Twmaster
December 14, 2012, 03:07 PM
Thanks again Gary. That made my head hurt reading that.

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