[Shrinkmd]

I'm reading this book, and I'm interested in the historical information about frontier life and growing up long ago. Some of the "tall tales" aspects of the book are a bit much, though. Did he really survive after extensive third degree burns? Popping his hip back in the socket after it being dislocated for months?

Some of the stories about people and animals living after being disemboweled and sewn back up seem quite difficult to believe, considering the lack of operating rooms, antibiotics, etc.

I'm trying to enjoy it, but there seems to be a lot of "walked to school uphill, both ways" to it.

[Certaindeaf]

You were either tough and or lucky in olden times. a lot of people died

[bhk]

Elmer could weave a tail, for sure. But the book, especially the first two thirds of it, is one heck of a read. I have this book and have read it several times. Mr. Keith was responsible, in part, for our love of big bore handguns and rifles. He lived one heck of a live, that is for sure.

[sgtstryker]

Just read and enjoy. I like to believe the times and the folks were tougher back then. Out in that part of the country, way back then, it was still fairly wild and primitive. So, to live there you had to be too. It's a great read.

[Apachedriver]

You need to consider the time period in the context.

Back then tall tales were the norm but didn't infer misinformation like today.

Also, nowadays, a dead cell phone battery is a crisis.
That plus a flat tire on the highway is a SHTF event.
That plus not having an ATM or debit card handy is a financial collapse.
And not being able to post on Facebook or Twitter as it all happens is a TEOTWAKI event.

Different breed back then.

[Certaindeaf]

Its been a very long time since I've read that book. Do you have any glaring examples of stretching? I remember him stating that his Dad gave him a pig of lead when he was very young and him driving/herding/directing cows from very long range with his sixgun hits. He shot tons of lead with special built/sighted sixguns at long range all his life. It seemed he went out of his way to corroborate his stories.

[22-rimfire]

I found his survival from the fire amazing. But we know that he did in fact survive. Whether the story has been enhanced a little for the telling, I have no idea.

I especially enjoyed the first 2/3rds of that book as mentioned earlier because of the historical aspects. A lot of things have changed in 100 years. Lots of good stuff in that book.

As far as his shooting goes, I pretty much believe him. One of the interesting things in the book was his creation and recommendation of a 378 caliber rifle as being the all around hunting rifle and I find that interesting. He did believe in using enough gun and I suspect would be troubled by people hunting deer with a 223. I doubt he felt the 270 win was enough gun for many things as purported by Jack O'Conner.

[The Lone Haranguer]

I doubt he felt the 270 win was enough gun for many things as purported by Jack O'Conner.
IIRC this disagreement led to some personal acrimony between them.

[rcmodel]

Did he really survive after extensive third degree burns?Well, he got those burn scars on his face, neck & hands somehow.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/Elmer_Keith.jpg

rc

[22-rimfire]

I liked that book so much that I bought a copy for my Dad. He wasn't so much interested in the development of the 44 or 41 mags, but he was a history buff and Elmer's book is a great window into history of the Montana area.

[Cosmoline]

My grandfather grew up out in Eastern Oregon along the Snake, and there were many comparable tales from his childhood. Confirmed, too. One grand uncle was impaled on a pitch fork, another run over by a combine. They lived in spite of it. You either got better or you didn't.

[SSN Vet]

Back in the day, if you died in a farm, or hunting accident.... you died.

No TV headline news. Most likely very few people would ever hear or know.

There's a reason why life expenctancy used to be so much shorter.

The few folks that did live to a ripe old age must have had some stories to tell.

[berettaprofessor]

about people and animals living after being disemboweled and sewn back up seem quite difficult to believe, considering the lack of operating rooms, antibiotics

Modern medicine is a wonderful thing, but it takes credit for a lot of miracles it probably isn't responsible for. Humans (and animals) were surviving horrible things for thousands/millions of years before we had antibiotics and anesthetics; we've just increased the survival rate.

Actually, I recall somewhere a quote from an epidemiologist who stated that before 1935, going to a doctor or hospital did nothing to increase your chances of survival. The year 1935 is significant is because that is the year that the antibacterial action of sulfonamides was published. Penicillin came along in the 40's and the rest is history.

[Bikewer]

I didn't read this one, but I greatly enjoyed his shooting-specific book, "Sixguns".
Although Keith's biases were clear throughout, there was plenty of good information.

[Jim Watson]

I saw him in person at an NRA convention in the 1970s.
He was badly burn scarred as shown in RC's picture.
I have no doubts about his account of the boarding house fire and aftermath.

Also note his accounts of the Spanish Flu, which just touch on the horrors of that 20th century plague. I had an uncle who worked on Nitrate Plant No 2 which later became a linchpin of TVA where I worked. They threw up a 4000 bed infirmary for the many employees hit by the flu.

[Larry Ashcraft]

He did believe in using enough gun and I suspect would be troubled by people hunting deer with a 223. I doubt he felt the 270 win was enough gun for many things as purported by Jack O'Conner.
I remember reading where he said that the 30-06 was only good for coyotes and such varmints.

A late knifemaker friend of mine met him and was surprised at how small a man he was, especially shooting all those big calibers.

[Ky Larry]

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.Tales have a way of getting bigger with the telling. Also, people have a way of doing about anything when they're left with no choice. My great-great-great-grand father(I think that's the right number of "greats") was wounded at the battle of Stones River or Murfreesboro,Ten in Jan 1863. Shot in both legs, he walked home to Morehead,Ky. That's about 300 miles.

If you talk to most oldtimes, they'll tell you that back in the day, whisky was smoother, horses were faster, girls were prettier,and dogs were smarter than today. Just enjoy the stories.

[rcmodel]

Undoubtedly Keith was called a lot of things in his lifetime.

But a lier wasn't one of them by people who actually knew him.

Well, actually, he was called a lier about some of his long-range sixgun shots.

But he pretty much proved over & over again in front of witnesses that he wasn't.

rc

[cassandrasdaddy]

i've pushed the guts back into bear hounds and stitched em up with fishing line. most of em made it. its surprising

[J-Bar]

I made the acquaintance of a man who lived in Idaho at the time of Elmer's death. He said after Elmer died in his own home, Elmer's son brought his father's body into town in the bed of a pickup truck. If true, Elmer was as unconventional after he died as he was while he was alive!

[silicosys4]

Anybody know where to get this book for less than $60? It seems to be either rare or popular, but it sounds like a great read

[Kyle M.]

Anybody know where to get this book for less than $60? It seems to be either rare or popular, but it sounds like a great read
Where did you find it for $60? I can't find it under $100.

[Blue Line]

the library?

[22-rimfire]

Back in the day, if you died in a farm, or hunting accident.... you died.

No TV headline news. Most likely very few people would ever hear or know.

No telephone or radio either when he was a kid. Electrification was rare also. Different world. Enjoy what we have now.

[blindhari]

I went to an estate sale last month and found a bunch of bandelero holsters for long barrel revolvers. Back in the den I spied a copy of Hell I was there by Keith. got home and was taking off the dust jacket prior to reading. Out fell a letter on Guns and Ammo stationary from Keith. It got me intrested and I looked up the book on Google. It was a first edition 1979 printing. I put book and letter up on another forum. Never even got one response.

blindhari

[MistWolf]

There are lots of shooters out there who don't realize who Elmer Keith and his contemporaries were. After my father died, I looked through his library of books for his original copy of "Hell, I was There!" and could not find it. Mom told me several of Dad's books were water damaged and she tossed many out. I about cried

[musicman10_1]

I bought a copy of "Hell, I was There" on eBay and have really enjoyed reading it. The tales are indeed tall but they are told in such a matter of fact manner that I just believe them.

Good stuff, for sure!

[DM~]

Undoubtedly Keith was called a lot of things in his lifetime.

But a lier wasn't one of them by people who actually knew him.

Well, actually, he was called a lier about some of his long-range sixgun shots.

But he pretty much proved over & over again in front of witnesses that he wasn't.

rc

I knew someone (who i trusted his opinions very much) who knew Keith personally. He never said Keith was a lier, but he did say (among other things) that Keith was a BIG bullchitter.

I think Keith stretched things a bit...

DM

[col.lemat]

I had the pleasure to meet the man once in the middle 1960's at my fathers house. I would say that 98% or more of his stories were true. Embellished up a bit, I would say maybe less then 5% of them were. Life and attitudes about life was differnt 100+ years ago.

[gspn]

You need to consider the time period in the context.

Back then tall tales were the norm but didn't infer misinformation like today.

Also, nowadays, a dead cell phone battery is a crisis.
That plus a flat tire on the highway is a SHTF event.
That plus not having an ATM or debit card handy is a financial collapse.
And not being able to post on Facebook or Twitter as it all happens is a TEOTWAKI event.

Different breed back then.
I love it. That part about a flat tire being a SHTF situation is so funny because it is so true. I can't tell you how many adult males I hear tell a story about waiting for a tow truck to change their flat tire. Notice I didn't call them "grown men."

[Hangingrock]

The earliest printing of Six Guns was not politically correct such as a reference to a Darky Cowboy shooting incident in the Chicago stock yards eliminated in follow on printings. Hell I Was There was preceded by a heavily edited version by Winchester Press tilted differently that Keith was extremely unhappy with.

[BBQLS1]

The earliest printing of Six Guns was not politically correct such as a reference to a Darky Cowboy shooting incident in the Chicago stock yards eliminated in follow on printings. Hell I Was There was preceded by a heavily edited version by Winchester Press tilted differently that Keith was extremely unhappy with.

I just bought a brand new copy of sixguns for $20 (paperback) off Amazon. Don't know the edition, but it had this language in it.

[BigG]

I read the book years ago, but his sidekick (whose name I forget) in an attached chapter stated that Elmer, rather than elaborating on something would tend to diminish it even though the thing was unbelievable any way you looked at it. The guy asserted that Keith made every shot he claimed and it was just as far and as accurate as he said. Jack O'Connor, a rival who said quite a bit negative about Keith in his articles would also say he was absolutely truthful in regard to accuracy and distance claims.

[BigG]

The other guy you'd want to read if you like salty individuals was Col Charles Askins, Jr. He was another writer that made interesting reading.

[Vern Humphrey]

Harold Croft called him a liar, after reading an article Keith wrote on long range shooting with handguns. Kieth invited Croft to his homestead outside Durkee, Origon, put up a 4x4 target of scrap lumber and hit it with all four of the handguns Croft brought -- at a range of 700 yards.

After that, anyone who called Keith a liar had to fight Croft!

[Leanwolf]

I never met Elmer Keith but I corresponded with him several times when he wrote for Guns & Ammo magazine. Interesting letters he'd send back.

Now living in Idaho for 15 years, I have become friends with an older man who not only knew Keith, but did some hunting, fishing, and gun trading with him. The man I know is an Idaho native, fantastic collector, gunsmith, all around outdoorsman and an incredible shot with handguns, rifles, and shotguns.

I asked him once about Keith's shooting. He said that Keith was the best shot he'd ever seen, and that was saying a lot, considering how good a shot my friend is.

He told me that years ago he and Keith were fishing a stream that fed into the Salmon River. A bald eagle flew over and angled down stream. Keith jerked out his handgun and fired once, almost without aiming. The eagle was killed and fell from the sky. Keith said, "That's one more eagle that won't be killing lambs."

(By the way, that incident took place before the Federal law was passed protecting eagles, hawks, and other raptors.)

My friend said that the range to the flying eagle was about 65/70 yards or so. That's pretty good shooting with a handgun.

L.W.

[Jim Watson]

One of Elmer Keith's regulars, likely Judge Don Martin, said that Elmer always told a story the same way. Most people will either embroider and improve a good story as time goes on or they forget details. Not Elmer, he always told it the same way every time.

[Arkansas Paul]

Damn, y'all have really got me wanting to read this book. I went online to find it and WOW. People who have them are really proud of them. I don't know if I would pay $100 for one. Oh well. Maybe one will turn up cheap one day.

[Certaindeaf]

I think some of his books are paperback and pretty inexpensive. No comparison with the hardback and all the nice glossy pictures though.

[mdauben]

With used hardbacks going for a couple hundred dollars, someone really should reprint Hell, I was There! for those of us not lucky enough to already have it in our libraries. :(

[Jim Watson]

I'd like to have one to replace the autographed copy lost in the house fire of The Incident.

I had autographed copies of Sixguns, Hell, I Was There, even the cut down Keith.
The most interesting was the copy of Safari bought direct from him. It was not only autographed, it even had corrections written in by hand.

[420Stainless]

Those hard cover prices are crazy. Seems like I bought a new copy just about 15 years ago for around $20. I thought darn near any book published in recent times was printed on demand these days. I guess not.

[CraigC]

You need to consider the time period in the context.

Back then tall tales were the norm but didn't infer misinformation like today.

Also, nowadays, a dead cell phone battery is a crisis.
That plus a flat tire on the highway is a SHTF event.
That plus not having an ATM or debit card handy is a financial collapse.
And not being able to post on Facebook or Twitter as it all happens is a TEOTWAKI event.

Different breed back then.
I think that about sums it up.

[Chief 101]

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.Tales have a way of getting bigger with the telling. Also, people have a way of doing about anything when they're left with no choice. My great-great-great-grand father(I think that's the right number of "greats") was wounded at the battle of Stones River or Murfreesboro,Ten in Jan 1863. Shot in both legs, he walked home to Morehead,Ky. That's about 300 miles.

If you talk to most oldtimes, they'll tell you that back in the day, whisky was smoother, horses were faster, girls were prettier,and dogs were smarter than today. Just enjoy the stories.
Those items you mention in the last paragraph are completely true, you needed to be there...Chief hehe

[freq18hz]

Hi all,

First post for me. I'm a new shooter (Grandfather taught me how to shoot when I was a boy, but I was never an owner of a firearm (if you don't count his old Springfield Krag) until recently. A few years ago, while shopping for a Glock, I met an older gentleman that seemed keen to give me some advice while shopping at a local gunshop. Being somewhat different than some folks of my generation, and always open to learning from anyone that is willing to teach, I paid close attention to what he had to say. Fast forward a couple years, and I find myself lucky to have an amazing mentor that has taken me under his wing, and taught me the old ways of big calibers, revolvers, and lever action rifles.

I haven't read the book, but it's no surprise to me that alot of Elmer's stories are perceived as tall tales. Guys like Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton were a rare breed in their time, and today well...they are just legends.

My grandmother turns 94 today. She was a test pilot during WW II. I have pictures of her in her flight suit, in the cockpits of experimental planes (since declassified) and teaching young men star navigation. By today's standards, this would sound like a tall tale for a woman that only stands 4ft 9 inches. At the ripe age of 94, her bone density is so low, it cannot be measured. What would be a slight discomfort bumping into something/sitting down wrong for you or I, results in many fractures for her in her spine, hips, and other bones.

After fracturing her hip last year at 93, I watched this small woman the size of yoda, refuse any help, and transport herself to and from wheelchair without assistance. She then spent the better part of 40 minutes pushing herself down a hallway to "get the laundry" which she then placed on her lap (could break more bones) so that she could spend another 40 minutes traversing the small house back to her bedroom to put said laundry away. All the while refusing any help.

People "back then" were made of different mettle. We are sons and daughters of convenience, and luxury. While I haven't read Mr. Keith's book, from what I know of him and from what has been said here, I have no reason to doubt anything he has said.

-Freq

[rcmodel]

Welcome to THR, and thanks for believing some of the tail tails us cantankerous old codgers dream up from time to time.

Some of the stories are actually really true.

Things were much different when I was a farm boy in Kansas in the 1950's then they are today.

And they were surely MUCH different when Elmer Keith was a young man in Idaho in the early 1900's.

You must be Very Proud of your grandmother!
And I am too!

My father was a WWII vet, and without those people giving and sacrificing many of the best years of their lives, we would all be speaking German or Japanese now!

Thanks for sharing that about her!!

rc

[freq18hz]

I believe this whole heartedly! I much prefer English to Japanese or German!

I can't be proud of her. Impossible to be proud of something you don't understand. She is the kind of person that can do things that I did not know were possible. I grew up in an age with MTV, videogames, and people telling me about all the things I can't do. She does things that I can't fathom, against all odds.

I'm a member of generation X. We X'ers are at a strange crossroads, where we can see the past, and understand (to a degree) the present. When I was a kid, we had rotary telephones, yellow pages, and block parties.

Nowadays, we have facebook, child molesters, and school shootings.

I don't have any answers, but I look towards the past for wisdom from people like Mr. Elmer Keith, hoping someday to find some.

-Freq

[rozziboy18]

ol Mr.Keith was one hard ass guy! i remember a story about him that was told not long ago by a guns and ammo editor. i stated that Keith was on a boat destine for catalina island with a few other editors and gun and ammo reps. story goes he was setting at the bar with his model 29 tucked in his pants enjoying a drink, when a man walked up to him. the man said : i see you with that hand cannon all the time, are you any good with it? with out saying a word, Keith pulled out his model 29, took aim at a seagull (in freeking flight!) , and clicked off a round thus killing the bird. he replaced said 29 and continued on to his drink.....no one questioned him anymore.

this story was told on the show "gun stories" funded by midwayusa.

[buck460XVR]

I think Keith stretched things a bit...

DM

It's called embellishment, it's done in books, movies and here, regularly on THR.

"Noun 1. embellishment - elaboration of an interpretation by the use of decorative (sometimes fictitious) detail........"

[22-rimfire]

I wonder how good his hearing was?

[rodinal220]

A Must Read!!

[Certaindeaf]

I wonder how good his hearing was?
Word has it he could hear a schoolmarm pursing her lips through a brick wall at forty paces.
True story.

[DM~]

Word has it he could hear a schoolmarm pursing her lips through a brick wall at forty paces.
True story.

WHILE he was shooting his 44 mag. rapid fire at a flock of flying sparrows, dropping them at 200 yards! lol

DM

[JShirley]

Freq, welcome to THR.

Nowadays, we have facebook, child molesters, and school shootings.

Facebook may be new, but I propose there is nothing new under the sun, when it comes to human behavior. Child molestation has happened since the dawn of time, depending on the culture, it just hasn't always been against the law. :(

The worst US school attack happened in 1927 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103186662). Crazy people are nothing new. Crazy violent people are not a new happening. Attacks on children are also, unfortunately, not something new either.

John

[420Stainless]

Thanks for the link JShirley. I usually shy away from all the coverage in the aftermath of one of these things and never heard of that event before. I learned something new, not good, but new.

[CraigC]

Child molestation has happened since the dawn of time, depending on the culture, it just hasn't always been against the law.
One must keep things in perspective. What is now considered child molestation was simply a part of some ancient cultures. In that regard (and most others), we probably live in a better, more civil time and a more civil relatively free nation than has ever existed before. The only difference is that more of them get caught and more of their exploits are heard by more people through mainstream media.

[JShirley]

Well, in many cultures in the past, women were married immediately after menstruation. Those ages are low enough that molestation would be a charge in many US states now (weigh this against the average life span, which has often been much lower). On the other hand, in many times and places, female members (and under-age male members, for that matter) of your family "belonged" to you, and except perhaps in the case of killing them, you could do whatever you wanted to them. :(

The world has not suddenly become a horrible cesspool. People are people, and the ways people act have not changed. 150 years ago in this country, if you had the money, you could own people and do whatever you wanted to them.

420, glad to help. There is also a famous case of an axe attack, but I wasn't able to immediately find the information.

[CraigC]

Well, in many cultures in the past, women were married immediately after menstruation.
In some places it's like that right now. Folks wanna talk about common, every day atrocities? Let's talk about grown men with AIDS raping young girls in Africa because they believe that having sex with a virgin will cure their disease. Folks who want to think we live in a terrible place lack perspective.


People are people, and the ways people act have not changed.
Exactly! And people have been doing horrific things to each other since the beginning of time. 50yrs of liberalism ain't gonna change that.

[Certaindeaf]

Heh. Where's Elmer when you need him? utoob of golden eagle doing its thing to a child

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pecV8i8M2J0

[Vern Humphrey]

Well, in many cultures in the past, women were married immediately after menstruation.
In many cultures they were married earlier than that. Julius Caesar, for example, married his first wife, Cinnilla, when she was six. It was not uncommon, right up into modern times for royalty and the nobility to marry very young children to cement alliances.