Silly but a good question...


PDA






BP Hunter
December 12, 2012, 05:33 PM
Anyway, I have never purchased a firearm outside my state of residence. I have purchased a good number of firearms online and had them trasferred in a local FFL of my state of residence. Is it possible for me to go out of state and purchase a firearm in that state I do not reisde in?

Thanks for youe answers.

If you enjoyed reading about "Silly but a good question..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Hunterdad
December 12, 2012, 05:45 PM
That would be a negative. You would need to transfer it to an FFL within your state.

kimbershot
December 12, 2012, 05:50 PM
contiguous state long gun purchase in sc ok--other states--gotta check your state laws. handguns--not ok nationwide--gotta go through ffl transfer. spoke with dealers in ga--more than happy to mail guns to sc dealer at priority mail cost--you would be responsible for transfer fee.

smalls
December 12, 2012, 05:52 PM
You can purchase long guns from an FFL and take them with you, as long as the gun us legal in both states.

You may purchase a handgun, but it must be shipped to an FFL in your home state.

45_auto
December 12, 2012, 05:54 PM
If it's a handgun, you need to transfer it through a FFL in your state. No options there.

If it's a rifle or shotgun, you'll need to check the laws of your state and the state where you're buying the long gun. For instance, Louisiana allows me to purchase a long gun anywhere as long as it complies with the other state's laws. Some states allow out of state residents to purchase, some don't. Some states only allow you to purchase long guns in neighboring states.

It is lawful for any person residing in Louisiana to purchase or otherwise obtain a rifle or shotgun or ammunition in any state, contiguous or non-contiguous to this state and to receive or transport such rifle or shotgun or ammunition into this state, and to permit any person residing in a contiguous or non-contiguous state to purchase shotguns, rifles or ammunition in this state provided that the purchase of said rifle or shotgun complies with Louisiana law, the law of the other state Involved in the purchase and federal law.

NavyLCDR
December 12, 2012, 06:35 PM
Wow, so much misinformation already....

The contiguous state limitation went away in 1986.

Long guns can be received from an FFL in any state so long as the transaction complies with both the recipient's state laws and the state laws of the FFL.

Handguns must be shipped to an FFL in the state of residence of the recipient for transfer.

Sources: 18 USC 922 (a)(3), (a)(5), (b)(3) and the ATF Newsletter to FFLs of February 2011.

If there is an outdated state law on the books that says contiguous state purchase/sales are allowed, those laws are now meaningless unless they also specifically prohibit an action.

This same question gets asked about twice a month...the answers should just be made a sticky, IMHO.

BP Hunter
December 12, 2012, 06:43 PM
OK Navy, since we are of the same state - WA. What are the State and Federal Laws on purchasing a long gun or handgun out of state?

chhodge69
December 12, 2012, 06:57 PM
The Federal part of your question is answered here:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

NavyLCDR
December 12, 2012, 07:16 PM
OK Navy, since we are of the same state - WA. What are the State and Federal Laws on purchasing a long gun or handgun out of state?

Washington State Law:

RCW 9.41.122
Out-of-state purchasing.

Residents of Washington may purchase rifles and shotguns in a state other than Washington: PROVIDED, That such residents conform to the applicable provisions of the federal Gun Control Act of 1968, Title IV, Pub. L. 90-351 as administered by the United States secretary of the treasury: AND PROVIDED FURTHER, That such residents are eligible to purchase or possess such weapons in Washington and in the state in which such purchase is made.

RCW 9.41.124
Purchasing by nonresidents.

Residents of a state other than Washington may purchase rifles and shotguns in Washington: PROVIDED, That such residents conform to the applicable provisions of the federal Gun Control Act of 1968, Title IV, Pub. L. 90-351 as administered by the United States secretary of the treasury: AND PROVIDED FURTHER, That such residents are eligible to purchase or possess such weapons in Washington and in the state in which such persons reside.

Federal Law:
18 USC 922 - Unlawful acts
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides;

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States),

45_auto
December 12, 2012, 07:25 PM
If there is an outdated state law on the books that says contiguous state purchase/sales are allowed, those laws are now meaningless unless they also specifically prohibit an action.

The NSSF (National Shooting Sports Foundation) has a list of contiguous state long gun purchase restrictions here:

http://www.nssf.org/factsheets/PDF/ContiguousStateRestrict.pdf

NavyLCDR
December 12, 2012, 07:36 PM
The NSSF (National Shooting Sports Foundation) has a list of contiguous state long gun purchase restrictions here:

http://www.nssf.org/factsheets/PDF/ContiguousStateRestrict.pdf

And, in most cases, they would be wrong. For example, Colorado Statute:

12-27-102. Legislative declaration - residents

(1) It is declared by the general assembly that it is lawful for a resident of this state, otherwise qualified, to purchase or receive delivery of a rifle or shotgun in a state contiguous to this state, subject to the following restrictions and requirements:

(a) The sale must fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such contiguous states;

(b) The purchaser and the licensee must have complied, prior to the sale or delivery for sale of the rifle or shotgun, with all of the requirements of section 922 (c) of the federal "Gun Control Act of 1968", applicable to interstate transactions other than at the licensee's business premises.

Notice the Colorado Statute prohibits ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Do you see the word unlawful or prohibited in the statute anywhere? NO.

From the ATF:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2011-02.pdf

"A number of States patterned their laws after the original provision of the GCA that allows nonresidents to purchase long guns from FFLs only in contiguous states. Many of those States have not revised their laws to reflect the 1986 amendments to the GCA that allow over-the-counter sales of long guns to residents of any State, as outlined above. This has caused confusion among FFLs, who often read such “contiguous state” State laws as prohibiting sales to residents of noncontiguous states.

ATF does not read State laws that refer to “contiguous states” as prohibiting sales of long guns to residents of noncontiguous states unless the language contained in that State’s law expressly prohibits residents from acquiring firearms outside that State. Thus, if the language in the State laws authorizes sales of long guns to residents of contiguous states, that State law also authorizes the sale of long guns to residents of all other states."



So, a Colorado resident purchases a rifle from an FFL in Washington State. Exactly what statute/law has been broken? NONE.

NavyLCDR
December 12, 2012, 07:40 PM
The NSSF (National Shooting Sports Foundation) has a list of contiguous state long gun purchase restrictions here:

http://www.nssf.org/factsheets/PDF/ContiguousStateRestrict.pdf

And here is another example of the errors on that webpage.

Oregon statute:

166.490 Purchase of firearms in certain other states. (1) As used in this section, unless the context requires otherwise:

(a) “Contiguous state” means California, Idaho, Nevada or Washington.

(b) “Resident” includes an individual or a corporation or other business entity that maintains a place of business in this state.

(2) A resident of this state may purchase or otherwise obtain a rifle or shotgun in a contiguous state and receive in this state or transport into this state such rifle or shotgun, unless the purchase or transfer violates the law of this state, the state in which the purchase or transfer is made or the United States.

(3) This section does not apply to the purchase, receipt or transportation of rifles and shotguns by federally licensed firearms manufacturers, importers, dealers or collectors.
(4) This section expires and stands repealed upon the date that section 922(b) (3) of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (18 U.S.C. 922(b) (3)) and regulations pursuant thereto are repealed or rescinded. [1969 c.289 1,2,3,4]

An Oregon resident receives a rifle from an FFL in Wyoming.... again, exactly which statute/law is broken? NONE. Because the statute does not contain any prohibitions.

45_auto
December 12, 2012, 07:47 PM
Notice the Colorado Statute prohibits ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Did you read 12-27-102 (a):

(a) The sale must fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such contiguous states;

Know what happens to your FFL if you're a Denver dealer and sell an AR15 to a California resident, just as one example?

leadchucker
December 12, 2012, 08:00 PM
....

Nickel Plated
December 12, 2012, 08:14 PM
BTW as I understand it correctly. The Federal law only talks about state laws when saying "as long as it's legal in the sellers and purchaser's state"?

As a hypothetical. I live in NYC. Where ALL firearms, including rifles and shotguns, require a city issued permit to own, or even just hold. Where as NY State law allows shotguns and rifles to be purchased with no permit pretty much as easily as in most of the US.

So according to federal law, could I go to PA and purchase a rifle there and bring it back to NY with me? It's legal by PA's state law and it's legal by NY's STATE law (even though NYC law forbids it)
I know bringing it down to the city would be breaking the city law but that's a separate matter.

PS: NY state does have an AWB in place so for this scenario we'll just assume I'm purchasing something that's not an AW.

medalguy
December 12, 2012, 08:48 PM
Note to .45 Auto: Last time I looked California wasn't contiguous to Colorado.

To OP: Is it POSSIBLE to buy a firearm outside your state and take possession? (I assume that's what you are asking) Certainly. I've witnessed such transactions numerous times. Is it LEGAL to do so? Most definitely not.

Blackrock
December 12, 2012, 08:56 PM
I live in Arizona and have purchased long guns in Nebraska, South Dakota, Montana and Wyoming while out travelling. Two purchases were FTF and the rest were store bought.

Two sales were at Cabelas stores and the counter clerk told me there was no problems.

BK
December 12, 2012, 09:42 PM
Note to .45 Auto: Last time I looked California wasn't contiguous to Colorado.
His post was about following law in both states, not about being contiguous, which is not required by Colorado law.
Is it LEGAL to do so? Most definitely not.
This is not accurate at all. Can you cite a law that would prohibit the OP from purchasing a rifle in Texas being that he is a resident of Washington state?

NavyLCDR
December 12, 2012, 10:46 PM
Know what happens to your FFL if you're a Denver dealer and sell an AR15 to a California resident, just as one example?

Then, for one, the Denver FFL violates Federal law because California law requires a DROS background check, which the Denver FFL cannot complete, and likely the AR-15 would be banned in California as an assault weapon unless it was modified.. Thus the sale violates Federal law 18 USC 922 (b)(3) which I quoted above.

Again, Colorado state law does not, and never has, prohibited rifle/shotguns sales to non-contiguous states, such as Montana or Texas. What did prohibit the sale was a Federal law that was amended in 1986 to remove the contiguous requirement.

So, Mr. 45_Auto, leaving the "gun control" states out, such as California, again, I challenge you to show us which law is violated if a Denver FFL sells a rifle or a shotgun to a Montana or Texas resident? Which PROHIBITION is violated? Which law contains the PROHIBITION?

Is it legal for you to wear black socks with orange sandals? Why is it legal? What law says it is legal to do so? There isn't any law that says it is legal to wear black socks with orange sandals. It's legal because there is no law prohibiting it. There is a law which allows you to drive a motor vehicle on public streets if you have a driver's license. Does that mean that it is illegal to ride a bicycle? The driver's license statute does not specifically allow it....

Which is exactly why it is legal for a Denver FFL to sell a rifle or shotgun to a Montana or Texas resident. Because the law that did prohibit it went away in 1986.

BP Hunter
December 12, 2012, 11:18 PM
It looks like I can buy long guns in OR. Splendid...no tax.:D

NavyLCDR
December 13, 2012, 12:31 AM
It looks like I can buy long guns in OR. Splendid...no tax.:D
Absolutely, however, when returning to Washington with your out of state purchase, Washington law says that you must pay a use tax on the item, equivalent to the Washington state sales tax rate.

smalls
December 13, 2012, 02:23 AM
Quote:
(a) The sale must fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such contiguous states;


This is also Federal law.

BP Hunter
December 13, 2012, 02:52 AM
[QUOTE][Absolutely, however, when returning to Washington with your out of state purchase, Washington law says that you must pay a use tax on the item, equivalent to the Washington state sales tax rate./QUOTE]

Oh, man!:banghead:

NavyLCDR
December 13, 2012, 05:41 AM
That's the same law that Washington is enforcing by requiring FFLs to collect tax on firearms they receive from out of state for transfer that were purchased from out of state private parties. It's one of the few ways the state can actually collect a use tax.

45_auto
December 13, 2012, 09:55 AM
Note to .45 Auto: Last time I looked California wasn't contiguous to Colorado.

There's no difference by federal law, which is Mr. navylcdr's whole point. That's why you need to be familiar with the laws of each state.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2011-02.pdf

Thus, if the language in the State laws authorizes sales of long guns to residents of contiguous states, that State law also authorizes the sale of long guns to residents of all other states."

45_auto
December 13, 2012, 10:10 AM
So, Mr. 45_Auto, leaving the "gun control" states out, such as California, again, I challenge you to show us which law is violated if a Denver FFL sells a rifle or a shotgun to a Montana or Texas resident?

I'll check into that, Mr. navylcdr. Hold your breath until I get back to you, it won't be long. :rolleyes:

Which states do you consider "gun control" states besides California? Why don't you just publish a list of which specific states that you believe that it would be OK for a Denver FFL to transfer a rifle or shotgun to?

Sam1911
December 13, 2012, 11:12 AM
Which states do you consider "gun control" states besides California? Why don't you just publish a list of which specific states that you believe that it would be OK for a Denver FFL to transfer a rifle or shotgun to?
The point here is that it is lawful for an FFL dealer to sell a RIFLE or SHOTGUN to a resident of ANY other state so long as ALL the laws regarding transfer of a weapon in BOTH states are followed.

Some states specifically prohibit their residents from taking possession of a firearm anywhere outside of their home state. Some states' laws make it technically lawfully possible but unrealistically difficult because of permits, waiting periods, and other hangups which a dealer in another state could probably follow but would make it not worth his while to bother with.

Each FFL dealer is given a large book containing the firearms transfer laws of every other state so s/he can check to make sure they're following the laws applicable to a potential customer from some other state.

NavyLCDR
December 13, 2012, 11:47 AM
I'll check into that, Mr. navylcdr. Hold your breath until I get back to you, it won't be long. :rolleyes:

Which states do you consider "gun control" states besides California? Why don't you just publish a list of which specific states that you believe that it would be OK for a Denver FFL to transfer a rifle or shotgun to?

Go to a WalMart that sells guns in Colorado. At the gun counter, they will have a US map with red and green states. There will be about 45 green states that they can sell rifles and shotguns to and about 5 they cannot.

My only point is that neither Colorado statutes nor Federal law prohibit a Colorado FFL from selling a rifle or shotgun to a resident of any other state (nor do they prohibit a Colorado resident from purchasing a rifle or shotgun from an FFL in any other state), although the state law of the other state, such as California, may prohibit such sale.

The NSSF (National Shooting Sports Foundation) website that you linked to is in error, with the ATF opinion presented as evidence.

This is an issue that illustrates a problem we gun owners face: we have enough problems with restrictions and prohibitions that actually do exist in real statute, we don't need to be perpetuating false restrictions and prohibitions that don't exist.

NavyLCDR
December 13, 2012, 12:44 PM
I live in Arizona and have purchased long guns in Nebraska, South Dakota, Montana and Wyoming while out travelling. Two purchases were FTF and the rest were store bought.

Please tell us the FTF purchases were transferred to you through an FFL.... :scrutiny: or were from fellow Arizona residents.

If you enjoyed reading about "Silly but a good question..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!