Uberti 1873 cattleman revolver


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crooked stripe
December 13, 2012, 01:07 PM
I have been looking at these revolvers and would really like to have one. Info is slim on their website as far as loadings go. Would it be possible to load some bullets for deer hunting that the single action would handle? Hoping to purchase anyone of the models they have in a 45 colt. They also make one with a birds head grip. What are your thought on that one. This last part is probably just a dream thinking most birds head models are only made with a 4.5" barrel. Thanks for any help you could give. John

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CraigC
December 13, 2012, 01:13 PM
They've always been good guns for the money but have done nothing but improve over the last ten years. These guns are also available in a .45ACP convertible so they should be fine with any of the loads deemed safe for the New Vaquero .45Colt in the 20-21,000psi range. One of my favorites is Hunters Supply 275gr LBT over 16.0gr 2400 for around 1050fps. The problem with any of the Uberti replicas will be the sights. If they have the pinched frame blackpowder era sights they can be a challenge to shoot accurately at any distance.

Personally, I've been wanting to drive to Dixie Gun Works and pick out another Bisley, this time a 7" .38-40. Should yield at least 1200fps with 180's at standard pressures.

snooperman
December 13, 2012, 06:28 PM
I have the Uberti cattleman in 45 Colt that I bought several years ago. I have nothing but good things to say about it. I also have shot mine a great deal over the years and have had no problems with it. For the money the Uberti guns are very good guns. The fit and finish is better than my Ruger Vaquero and they look traditional.

rswartsell
December 13, 2012, 08:23 PM
I also am interested in this post, perhaps for different reasons than the OP. I am without a doubt a double action revolver kind of guy so I have a real knowledge gap with SA's.

I note that my "toolbox" at present doesn't have a big bore revolver. I eventually need to address that. Some analysis tells me that for big bore, my uses would be just as well served with a single action. Not having the budget at present for an FA, I first thought of the Rugers.

In my mind the Ubertis that I have had the pleasure to see have been truly beautiful. In .45 Colt do the throats measure such to provide really good inherent accuracy? Further, if I want to load up hot .45 Colt to chase .44 mag are the Ubertis going to handle that?

Is this girl just for taking to the prom or can she butcher a hog and make biscuits too?

BCRider
December 13, 2012, 08:47 PM
The problem with any gun where you want to jump around with ammo choices is that the fixed sights will only be accurate for a few very specific loadings. Matching the POI to the POA for a wide variety of loadings is simply not going to be realistic for the fixed sights. One or the other has to give.

So it comes down to either shoot one or two specific loads that result in the same POI or go with an option that has adjustable sights.

For an all 'rounder with adjustable sights the Ruger Blackhawk is often the best lower budget choice. Although I see Uberti has a model that has an adjustable sight. But it's only in .44Mag.

In terms of finding two loads that shoot to the same POI what you're looking at would be a heavy bullet with a full pressure charge. Then by picking a lighter bullet with a moderate charge you can achieve the same muzzle rise at the point where the bullet leaves the muzzle. Thus a pair of loads that will shoot to the same POI. One for full on hunting or taking down big steel and the other for days when you just want to plink or target shoot or introduce new shooters to a less intimidating load. If you can live with this sort of two load setup then a fixed sights gun can work for you.

Trad Archer
December 13, 2012, 08:52 PM
A 255 grain semi-wadcutter traveling 900-1000 fps on a broadside shot will easily kill a deer. You don't need a hot round.

rswartsell
December 13, 2012, 08:54 PM
Good info BC, thanks! What can you tell me about chamber throats and frame strength of the Uberti?

rswartsell
December 13, 2012, 08:58 PM
Louisiana hogs? Some say for hogs you should go pretty warm with .45 Colt. Do you differ?

crooked stripe
December 13, 2012, 09:19 PM
This thread is really getting interesting. I really enjoying learing all I can about different firearms. Thanks guys.

snooperman
December 13, 2012, 09:44 PM
For hunting deer in the oak hammock on my farm I like to use my Blackhawk in 45 Colt with 250 gr bullet. I also like the 357 mag blackhawk with 180 gr bullet at 1200 ft/sec for wild boar.

rswartsell
December 13, 2012, 09:53 PM
Gentlemen,

The question remains;

For the item under discussion-the Uberti Cattleman (or similer Ubertis)

Who can speak to the precision of the chamber throats and frame strength for hot rounds?

P.S. already you have me thinking "prom queen".

Dnaltrop
December 13, 2012, 10:18 PM
Standard pressure only for the replicas, if you want to go hot, get a Blackhawk/large frame(old)Vaquero

I have the Uberti Schofield replica ( through Taylor's ) and it's been flawless as far as function, very tight.... but I keep my handloads for it around 900 fps, and when CCW-ing it, I load Winchester Silvertips.

The Blackhawk has the adjustable sights for my varying loads, and can handle powder-puff loads for the kids, or Buffalo Bore 325 grain Hard cast when I feel the need to twang my diaphragm like a guitar string.

CraigC
December 13, 2012, 10:34 PM
No "Ruger only" loads but as I said before, they are safe for heavier loads than factory or cowboy powder puffs.

I've never owned or measured a Uberti .45Colt but .456" throats never stopped my Colt New Frontier from shooting 1"@25yd groups with .452" cast bullets.

Driftwood Johnson
December 13, 2012, 11:41 PM
Howdy

I have owned a couple of Uberti Cattlemen over the years. The one I have now is about 15 years old, so I cannot speak for what they are making today. I just ran downstairs and measured the cylinder throats. Using my calipers, the throats were running around .453-.454. However, a caliper is not the ideal tool for measuring cylinder throats.

The old standard is, the correct bullet for the throats will just pass through the throats with a little bit of pressure. If it falls right through, it is too small, if it needs a lot of pressure to be shoved through, it is too large. A .452 bullet (which is standard for 45 Colt) pushed through just right with light pressure.

Regarding pushing 44 Mag pressures with a gun built with basically the same dimensions as the SAA, forget it! Perhaps you have read about Elmer blowing up a Colt with high pressure loads. That's why he went down to 44 Special when he eventually developed the 44 Mag. Any 45 caliber revolver is going to have thinner cylinder walls than the same gun chambered for 44 caliber. The Uberti guns are basically dimensionally the same as a Colt, they are not designed for hot loads. Personally, I would never push any revolver built along the lines of the SAA with anything more than SAAMI Max 14,000 psi loads. These guns are not 'old model' Vaqueros or Blackhawks, they are not as massive.

Do not confuse a 250 grain bullet moving at 800 fps, the factory standard load for many years, with 'cowboy powder puffs'. Far from it. That load was the most powerful factory load for revolvers until the advent of the 357 Magnum in 1935. It is still plenty potent.

Regarding accuracy and fixed sights. Do not confuse Point of Impact vs Point of Aim with accuracy. Accuracy consists of how small a group a gun will make, not where it puts the group. A 45 Colt with proper ammunition is plenty accurate. It will make a small group. Kentucky windage and experience will put the group where it needs to be if it is not exactly where it is desired.

rswartsell
December 14, 2012, 12:45 AM
Freedom Arms if you have the geld and the urge to push the envelope. Colt for I have the $ and authentic lite. Ruger for Chevrolet budget and utility.

Uberti still gets my vote for prom queen.

Flame away.

P.S. I already have a good collection of .357s.

BCRider
December 14, 2012, 01:27 AM
Driftwood is adding a lot of goodness to this question. He's right in that accuracy isn't a sights issue. But either way I know I would like to work up a set of loads that match their POI's at some distance and then use "Kentucky elevation" to deal with closer or farther. It's just that knowing you can trust the sights for some reasonable zero point gives a nice starting off point. Especially if you're in a bit of a hurry before some game dissapears.

He also raises a good point about the low SAMMI pressure limit for .45Colt. And along with that the hitting power of a 250gn hunk o' lead even at what many consider modest speed in today's world. Yet these loads hit hard and have taken their share of game since the late 1800's. But if you want to reach out a little farther with a flatter trajectory you might want to shift your sights more towards the .44Mag. Then you can send out a 240gn pill at more around 1200 fps.

As for throats and frame strength I can't comment as I don't have a recent Uberti either. But it's intriguing to note that they have a number of .44Mag models based on their basic platform. That suggests that the frame and action is able to easily withstand a proper full SAMMI .45Colt loading. But I would be hesitant about exceeding that and trying to step up into the "Ruger Only" loads. The frame is likely OK but there is those thinner cylinder walls to consider what with the bigger hole.

Dnaltrop
December 14, 2012, 01:35 AM
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

I really like this Linebaugh article when the topic turns to the inherent weakness of the thinner walls of the .45 colt. Someone still drawing breath who's detonated a *few* pistols in the course of his testing.

Wouldn't mind one of his guns either ;) Unfortunately I'm paying for the eldest to take a trip to Japan this summer as part of her school's exchange program. Really destroyed my shooting budget this year, but the Kids come first.

Always.

snooperman
December 14, 2012, 07:44 AM
Based on information I have with mine, I would not want to exceed much beyond 1000 ft/sec with 2400. Plenty good for taking deer too with the 240 gr bullet.

StrawHat
December 14, 2012, 07:59 AM
I have been looking at these revolvers and would really like to have one. Info is slim on their website as far as loadings go. Would it be possible to load some bullets for deer hunting that the single action would handle? Hoping to purchase anyone of the models they have in a 45 colt... John


I have two of the SAA clones, one with a 5 1/2" barrel and the other has a 7 1/2" pipe. Both have cylinders for the 45 long Colt. I load a 260 rain lead bullet over a case full of black powder and find it to perform just as the Army expected it to in 1873. I can shoot through a deer from any angle with that load, it was designed to shoot through a horse at 100 yards. Never shot a horse at that distance so I can not verify the claim but from what I have seen of deer, no problem. I cast my bullets from softer lead, lube them with appropraite stuff and get no leading. The cylinders on both of my revolvers are very uniform but I do not recall the diameter.

I also have a 45 ACP cylinder for the shorter revovler and it handles the heavier bullets also.

snooperman
December 14, 2012, 08:19 AM
The Italian proof for this gun is 21,000 PSI

crooked stripe
December 14, 2012, 09:08 AM
StrawHat, do you use any kind of wadding between the bullet and the powder? Is there any kind of converted measure for the powder such as grains or do you just fill case with a dipper? measuring powder is the reason I haven't tried it yet. Can you suggest a book with details I could purchase? All 4 of my manuals are very lacking on that subject. All bits of info are greatly appreciated. John

the Black Spot
December 14, 2012, 09:50 AM
I have one in .44 special. Chamber throats measure .430. The barrel thread area is .428 barrel slugs .429
That said a 315 grain gas check wheel weight cast bullet with 9.5 grain of 2400 or 7.2 grain of blue dot will keep five shots real close to 2.5" at 25 yds.

Quoheleth
December 14, 2012, 10:06 AM
There was a fellow on Gunbroker who was selling the Uberti Hombre, their base-line model, for about $250 a year or so ago. I don't see them right now, but keep an eye out. Academy has them for about $350, IIRC.

I picked up one of the $250 specials, 4 1/2" barrel. It shoots way low for me, but the group is a nice, tight group. I run either 255gr SWCs or 250gr LRN over about 8gr Unique which, I was told, was the "standard" .45 Colt load for years. It's a nice, stout load but not obnoxious. Shooting steel plates, that load knocks them down with resounding authority. No wondering if you hit it or not - it slaps them down. The bullets I've collected from around those plates are flattened down to the size of a thick dime.

Here was my review. Unfortunately, I deleted the photos somehow...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=621876

Q

Whacked
December 15, 2012, 01:48 AM
I have the Uberti Hombre in .45C, absolutely love it.
Do not load using Ruger data, they cannot handle that kind of pressure.
Typically I load using MBC #4 over 6-6.5g Trailboss or MBC #1 over 9.5g Unique

StrawHat
December 15, 2012, 06:38 AM
StrawHat, do you use any kind of wadding between the bullet and the powder? Is there any kind of converted measure for the powder such as grains or do you just fill case with a dipper? measuring powder is the reason I haven't tried it yet. Can you suggest a book with details I could purchase? All 4 of my manuals are very lacking on that subject. All bits of info are greatly appreciated. John
A quick answer is that many of the powder measures are usable as is. I do not use wadding in revolver loads.

You're reading the wrong books! Save some money and check out some of the black powder forums for more information.

CraigC
December 15, 2012, 09:46 AM
The Uberti .44Mag's are built on a larger frame. Comparable to a large frame Ruger.

Linebaugh's article pertains to Rugers, not Colt's or replicas.

At this strength level, the .44Spl is really a better choice. It has more flexibility, more strength and more efficiency. The .45Colt is a lot of wasted powder capacity if you're not using holy black.

Driftwood Johnson
December 15, 2012, 10:58 AM
StrawHat, do you use any kind of wadding between the bullet and the powder? Is there any kind of converted measure for the powder such as grains or do you just fill case with a dipper? measuring powder is the reason I haven't tried it yet. Can you suggest a book with details I could purchase? All 4 of my manuals are very lacking on that subject. All bits of info are greatly appreciated. John

Not Straw Hat but I have been loading 45 Colt with Black Powder for years. Basically, you want to put in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated the powder will be compressed by the base of the bullet by about 1/16"-1/8". It is fairly simple to arrive at the proper amount of powder for any given bullet.

You do have to give some thought to the type of bullet lube you have on your bullets. Generally speaking, most modern hard bullet lubes are not compatible with Black Powder, they can form a hard caked fouling that is difficult to remove. I lube all my BP bullets with SPG.

There are a couple of powder measures on the market that are designed specifically for Black Powder. They are made so that there are no sparking parts inside, the parts that move are made of brass. Hornady makes one and Lyman makes another. I use the Lyman BP measure when I am loading 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian and 38-40 with Black Powder. I also use the Lee dipper set sometimes when loading Black Powder if I have not previously set up the powder measure for a particular cartridge. The Lee dipper set is very inexpensive.

gp911
December 15, 2012, 11:18 AM
I have a 3.5" birdshead model. I love it but I stick to a 255@1000 load as a maximum because it's not built as beefy as a Blackhawk. Great gun, good points made about fixed sights though.

BCRider
December 15, 2012, 02:42 PM
As mentioned the regular lube on commercially cast and lubed bullets isn't black powder friendly. You can still try it out by two options.

One is to boil out the existing lube and simply finger fill the grooves with a BP friendly lube when you load them.

The other way is to switch out the black powder for Pyrodex P loose powder. The Pyrodex P is a modern propellant powder which is volume equivalent to black powder. So you still fill the case to achieve the light compression of the powder mentioned earlier. And it still makes a big cloud of smoke and sparks. But the Pyrodex is modern lube friendly.

Note that in both cases that black and Pyrodex leaves a corrosive fouling that needs to be cleaned away with hot water before the more normal solvent and oiling. A lot of folks don't want to have to deal with that while others don't mind and it's worth the fun to be had from shooting historical loadings.

Note that if you do try some black or Pyrodex loads that you MUST fill the casing to where there is the suggested compression. It's one of those situations where you MUST NOT leave any airgap. An airgap in black powder loads allows the powder to shake around and it gets set off all at once which produces a dangerously high pressure spike. Same with Pyrodex. Fill and compress is the key with these powders. If you really must shoot with a lower power charge then you use a filler and separator cards. But that's more fussing than it's worth for most folks. So either fill 'em up and squeeze it as mentioned or go with a different smokeless powder for lower power loadings.

Otherwise there are a number of good regular smokeless powders that you can use which do not require wads or packing. Unique seems to be one which has a strong following in this regard. And Trail Boss is another. The Trail Boss in particular is very "fluffy" so it fills the casing and totally precludes any risk of double charging.

Reloading for handguns isn't as fussy as you seem to think it might be. Oh sure, you want to ensure that you're not overfilling. But it's simply not 1/10 gn critical. So a simple dipper measure is just fine.

A nice way to do this when you start out is to make or buy a 50 spot loading block and do each of the press and loading operations separately so you can double check each stage. With this method you can measure out the powder and then use a flashlight to check for the correct level of powder in each case before setting and crimping the bullets. That produces a near zero risk method.

The best part is that it REALLY cuts down on the cost of shooting these bigger bore handguns. And not only that but you get the loads you want instead of being limited to what is out there on the shelves.

Driftwood Johnson
December 15, 2012, 04:20 PM
Howdy Again

Good information from BCRider.

Two comments I will make is that when I was pan lubing regular Smokeless bullets for BP I did not boil the lube away. I would place the bullets on their sides on a cookie sheet covered with paper towels. Into the oven for 30 minutes at 200 degrees F. The lube melts and the paper towels wicks it away. Kept me from crudding up one of the wife's pots with hardened lube.

If you are going to load a small amount, try two loading blocks, not one. Get a pair of blocks with 50 holes each. Place one block on each side of the press. start with 50 shells on one side in one block. Run each shell through each loading process, transferring it from the full block to the empty block. This way you can keep track of exactly which shells have had what done to them. Increases safety a great deal, especially when dispensing powder. Each case moves from the 'empty' block to the 'loaded' block. Good insurance against double charging any case. I actually have about 6 or 8 such blocks that I made up out of hardwood. When I am loading on my old single stage press, if I am loading up say 100 rounds, I use three blocks, so that there is always one block available for the brass as it goes through each process.

Not necessary when I am loading on one of my progressive presses.

crooked stripe
December 15, 2012, 07:50 PM
Thank you all, fantastic information. This thread has given me the confidence to try it. I do use Trail Boss and Unique. Both powders have been successful for me. When I first looked into this my lgs sold me Hodgdon Pyrodex type P muzzleloading propellant. It states it is FFFG equivalent. By the sounds of BCRider I have the right powder, correct? If so now all I need is the time. Will wait for a reply before I give it a try. Thanks to all, John

StrawHat
December 15, 2012, 08:22 PM
Personally, if you are going to use a substitute, stay with Unique. It is still a top performer. Otherwise, it is tough to improve on the original Black powder.

Driftwood Johnson
December 16, 2012, 09:59 AM
Just because you have something on hand does not always mean it is the right choice.

If you use Pyrodex you still must use a bullet with Black Powder compatible bullet lube.

If you want to try a sub, try APP, it does not require special bullet lube, can be used with conventional hard cast bullets and conventional bullet lube. The same can be said about Hodgdon's 777, except it is about 15% more powerful than real Black Powder.

Here is a good summary of the various Black Powder substitutes and their characteristics.

http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html

BCRider
December 17, 2012, 03:17 AM
DJ, the local guys that put me onto the Pyrodex P say that smokeless lube is OK. And so far the barrel hasn't had any issues with the smokeless wax based lube with the Pyrodex. And I figure I'd spot it pretty quick since I have to swab and clean that evening along with the C&B revolvers.

But perhaps the stuff that the local boolit casting outfit uses is a smidge different than some others. The folks that run it are well aware that a lot of the local BP fans use their products. So they may have taken that into account when they chose which lube to use. I guess it's the old case of YMMV.

Certainly your post about this made me look around a bit with google and I did find some information saying that Pyrodex needs a BP style lube or it'll leave a gummy residue. Which makes me think all the more that the local boolit folks are using a compromise lube that works with either.

And that bit about the cookie sheet is a great idea. I'm single but I still don't like the idea of crudding up a perfectly good pot. And that's something I never thought about.

Sure as shootin' melting the lube out of the grooves is going to cause a stink so it's still best to do it when SWMBO is out for something. And open the windows wide to boot.

A layer of aluminium foil under the paper toweling will also aid in making the cleanup of the evidence of wrong doing a lot more easy... :D

Unique is certainly a great and versitile powder. But it lacks the black powder like soft push and the clouds of smoke and sparks. The only downside that I can see to Pyrodex as a BP sub is that it produces a slightly tan/brown tinged smoke instead of snowy white ilke proper BP.

Paul7
December 17, 2012, 07:41 PM
I bought an Uberti Old West finish recently and after about 150 rounds it went south on me. The cylinder spins no matter what the hammer position. The seller is giving me a refund.

:banghead:

35 Whelen
December 19, 2012, 12:32 AM
I bought a couple of Uberti's recently myself. I ultimately wanted .44 Specials but found a really good deal on a 4 3/4" in 44/40. I bought a new .44 Special cylinder for it and had my first .44 Special! Next I ordered a 5 1/2" Uberti in .44 Special:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/P1010066.jpg

I LOVE this caliber. Loading a home-cast 250 gr. SWC, I get over 900 fps and the empty cases fall out of the chambers under their own weight. Hopefully over Christmas I'll be able to do some moe load development. I think 1100 fps with this bullet is a fairly reasonable expectation from all I've read, but time will tell!

35W

BBQLS1
December 19, 2012, 11:02 AM
A 255 grain semi-wadcutter traveling 900-1000 fps on a broadside shot will easily kill a deer. You don't need a hot round.


And most anything else with a hard cast bullet.



Howdy

I have owned a couple of Uberti Cattlemen over the years. The one I have now is about 15 years old, so I cannot speak for what they are making today. I just ran downstairs and measured the cylinder throats. Using my calipers, the throats were running around .453-.454. However, a caliper is not the ideal tool for measuring cylinder throats.

The old standard is, the correct bullet for the throats will just pass through the throats with a little bit of pressure. If it falls right through, it is too small, if it needs a lot of pressure to be shoved through, it is too large. A .452 bullet (which is standard for 45 Colt) pushed through just right with light pressure.

Regarding pushing 44 Mag pressures with a gun built with basically the same dimensions as the SAA, forget it! Perhaps you have read about Elmer blowing up a Colt with high pressure loads. That's why he went down to 44 Special when he eventually developed the 44 Mag. Any 45 caliber revolver is going to have thinner cylinder walls than the same gun chambered for 44 caliber. The Uberti guns are basically dimensionally the same as a Colt, they are not designed for hot loads. Personally, I would never push any revolver built along the lines of the SAA with anything more than SAAMI Max 14,000 psi loads. These guns are not 'old model' Vaqueros or Blackhawks, they are not as massive.

Do not confuse a 250 grain bullet moving at 800 fps, the factory standard load for many years, with 'cowboy powder puffs'. Far from it. That load was the most powerful factory load for revolvers until the advent of the 357 Magnum in 1935. It is still plenty potent.

Regarding accuracy and fixed sights. Do not confuse Point of Impact vs Point of Aim with accuracy. Accuracy consists of how small a group a gun will make, not where it puts the group. A 45 Colt with proper ammunition is plenty accurate. It will make a small group. Kentucky windage and experience will put the group where it needs to be if it is not exactly where it is desired.

I got "Sixguns" about a month ago. It really sounded like he was getting better accuracy and that's why he went to .44 Special.

CraigC
December 19, 2012, 01:11 PM
The cylinder spins no matter what the hammer position. The seller is giving me a refund.
Sounds like a broken spring, an easy fix.

Driftwood Johnson
December 19, 2012, 07:27 PM
Sure as shootin' melting the lube out of the grooves is going to cause a stink so it's still best to do it when SWMBO is out for something. And open the windows wide to boot.

A layer of aluminium foil under the paper toweling will also aid in making the cleanup of the evidence of wrong doing a lot more easy...

Not really. I used to do it all the time when SWMBO was home. Does not really stink at all, just a bit of a waxy odor. I have my own cookie sheets and strainers and a couple of other utensils that I use for reloading, but if you fold up a couple of layers of paper towels on top of the cookie sheet, they will soak up all the melted lube and no tin foil is needed.

Regarding a free spinning cylinder, most likely one of the legs of the split trigger/bolt spring has broken. Probably the most common failure in any Colt style single action revolver. It probably should not have broken after only 150 rounds, but that is a known weakness of the old SAA. You just never know when the bolt/trigger spring or the hand spring is going to snap. Just part of the design. And the main reason Bill Ruger substituted coil springs for the old flat type springs when he brought out his first single action revolver in the early 1950s. Very simple fix, just replace the spring. There are some tricks too, to helping make sure the spring does not snap again.

Hammerdown77
December 20, 2012, 04:22 PM
Just a word of caution about melting smokeless lube out of bullets by baking them in the oven (which works great, as mentioned, on a cookie sheet with several layers of paper towels). Those bullets stay hot a while, unless you dump 'em in water or something. You certainly don't want to dump a bunch in your hand to admire how clean and shiny they are. Don't ask me how I know this...

Clark
December 21, 2012, 12:43 PM
crooked stripe
Uberti 1873 cattleman revolver
I have been looking at these revolvers and would really like to have one. Info is slim on their website as far as loadings go. Would it be possible to load some bullets for deer hunting that the single action would handle?
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
I have a 1970s Iver Johnson imported Uberti manufactured Cattleman.
Since I got it in 2004, I have only shot 24 gr H110 250 gr XTP 1.6" OAL roll crimp into cannelure.
It has a 4.75" barrel, but to enter the barrel length into Quickload, I need to add the cylinder length = 6.5".
Quickload predicts 21.4kpsi 1220 fps
Uberti chronographs at 1220 fps which matches the Quickload prediction for velocity.
The thinnest chamber wall in a Ruger Blackhawk is .059".
The thinnest chamber wall in the Cattleman is .044"
QL predicts that Speer published loads for the Blackhawk are as much as 31.7kpsi.
What does it all mean?
a) There is a way to load the 45 Colt Cattleman so it can make enough power for shooting a deer.
b) I think 21.4 kpsi is a reasonable pressure for long term use of my 45 Colt Cattleman.

CraigC
December 21, 2012, 01:08 PM
I wouldn't use that load in an Italian replica of any kind. You're one grain over what the hottest hotrodder I know of uses in a modern Colt New Frontier. I don't think that Quickload pressure estimate is accurate either. It's probably more like 24-25,000psi and that's not even a good idea in a modern Colt or domestic USFA. Velocities in the 1050-1100fps range are considered safe territory but again, that's in Colt's and USFA's, not Italian replicas and most definitely not 40yr old replicas.

Clark
December 21, 2012, 05:45 PM
After 8 years of shooting my 40 year old Cattleman, I did have a failure this month.
The trigger spring/ bolt spring broke and the cylinder was free spinning as nothing lifted the bolt into the cylinder slots.

When I took the revolver apart, someone had replaced 4 of the 6-32 screws with 6.-48 screws.

I had to buy the screws from Brownells as 6-32 screws are even more rare than 6-48 screws. 6-48 screws are used in scope base mounting and are not standard.
http://www.brownells.com/schematics/Uberti-/1873-Cattleman-S-A--sid325.aspx

StrawHat
December 21, 2012, 09:46 PM
...a) There is a way to load the 45 Colt Cattleman so it can make enough power for shooting a deer...


Clark, blackpowder and a 260 grain lead bullet will kill any deer in North America or wherever you would like to hunt them.

crooked stripe
December 22, 2012, 09:02 AM
Got one. Will fill you in later when I have more time. Quite excited. John

Hondo 60
December 22, 2012, 07:29 PM
If you find it in a reputable reloading manual you'll be fine as long as it isn't a "Ruger Only" load.

http://www.jbabcock.net/guns/uberti.jpg

Clark
December 24, 2012, 12:15 PM
I do not use reloading manuals any more. I own ~50 of them.

CraigC
December 24, 2012, 12:59 PM
I do not use reloading manuals any more. I own ~50 of them. Just to make fun of them.
Yeah, I think I'd rather get pressure tested load data from reputable manual than some anonymous internet character using QuickLoad. :rolleyes:

Clark
December 24, 2012, 06:37 PM
CraigC
The Uberti .44Mag's are built on a larger frame. Comparable to a large frame Ruger.
Linebaugh's article pertains to Rugers, not Colt's or replicas.
At this strength level, the .44Spl is really a better choice. It has more flexibility, more strength and more efficiency. The .45Colt is a lot of wasted powder capacity if you're not using holy black.
I have tested a lot of revolvers to destruction.
The only frame that ever changed was on a Colt Agent Aluminum frame.

The patterns I see over and over are:
1) The break tops get loose latches from stretching the latch pin hole into oblong.
2) The solid frame split the cylinders and sometimes a secondary failure of the top strap
3) The cylinder rotation starts out loose on Rugers, but can get loose on Smiths from damage to the bolt slots in the cylinders and looseness in the bolts in the frame. Post 1907 Colts stay tight.
---------------
The wasted powder capacity of the 45 Colt can cause inaccuracy. The best cure I have found for the inaccuracy of wimpy 45Colt loads is Unique powder.

crooked stripe
December 24, 2012, 08:10 PM
This is what I picked out. Little confused, the box says Stoeger 0469 Cattleman Birdshead OM. (old model or black powder frame) Im not understanding what they are trying to tell me. They sure don't explain much.I guess they expect you to know before you buy. Maybe someone here can help. It does say it can shoot only commercially loaded cartridges that have been loaded inaccordance with SAAMI-C.I.P. standards.

Driftwood Johnson
December 24, 2012, 08:44 PM
Howdy

Black Powder frame means there is an angled screw at the front of the frame that holds the cylinder pin in place, rather than the spring loaded cross latch that is more common. Starting in 1873 when it was first introduced, the Colt SAA had a screw like this holding the cylinder pin in place. Colt started changing over to the current spring loaded cross latch design around 1896 or so, if memory serves.

Because of the metallurgy available when they were made, original Colt SAAs with the Black Powder frame were not safe to shoot with Smokeless ammunition. However, modern replicas, such as you are looking at, are perfectly safe to shoot with Smokeless ammunition, whether they have the screw holding the cylinder pin in place or the more conventional spring loaded cross latch. SAMMI standard simply means you can shoot standard velocity ammunition in it. Not the more powerful 'Ruger Only' loads, but neither are you restricted to cowboy ammunition.

Paul7
December 25, 2012, 11:14 AM
Sounds like a broken spring, an easy fix.
I already got a refund on the defective Old West finish gun, and replaced it with a used Uberti 'El Patron', ($389) which seems to be a much better gun. Sounds crazy, but it's almost like when they beat up the Old West finish gun, it degraded the rest of the gun. It just didn't feel solid, screws were backing out, and the cylinder problem I mentioned.

CraigC
December 25, 2012, 01:51 PM
Screws tend to back out on virtually all single actions but I'm glad you're happy. ;)

gp911
December 25, 2012, 02:03 PM
That looks just like mine. Mine says "Cabela's, Sidney, NE" on the top of the barrel for some reason. It's a great handling gun, one of my favorites. Mine isn't the black powder frame though.

Paul7
December 25, 2012, 09:10 PM
Screws tend to back out on virtually all single actions but I'm glad you're happy. ;)
After every 150 rounds?

Driftwood Johnson
December 25, 2012, 11:17 PM
After every 150 rounds?

Yes. As a matter of fact, Colt puts little tiny plastic washers under the heads of the screws in a Single Action Army, to help prevent the screws from backing out. It is very common for the screws to back out. Get a set of hollow ground screwdrivers and snug up the screws after every couple of trips to the range.

Paul7
December 26, 2012, 12:10 PM
Yes. As a matter of fact, Colt puts little tiny plastic washers under the heads of the screws in a Single Action Army, to help prevent the screws from backing out. It is very common for the screws to back out. Get a set of hollow ground screwdrivers and snug up the screws after every couple of trips to the range.
Thank you, I didn't know that.

StrawHat
December 27, 2012, 08:03 AM
A bit of thread sealer, shellac, or even nail polish (your choice of color) will keeps the screws from backing out. I use shellac.

Paul7
December 27, 2012, 07:40 PM
A bit of thread sealer, shellac, or even nail polish (your choice of color) will keeps the screws from backing out. I use shellac.
What happens if you need to unscrew to get at the internals if they are sealed like that?

Hondo 60
December 27, 2012, 08:16 PM
Crooked - that's a beauty!
I would love to have a 3 1/2" birdshead.
(that's on my short list)

It is certainly strong enough to handle any commercially available ammo.
Or if you reload, any reloads that are made using published data.
As mentioned before, just don't use data from joe internet, make sure it's from a reliable source.

StrawHat
December 27, 2012, 09:39 PM
What happens if you need to unscrew to get at the internals if they are sealed like that?
Just put the screwdriver to it and back it out. I have never needed to resort to any heavier efforts. The shellac merely prevents the screw from backing out on it's own.

StrawHat
December 27, 2012, 09:43 PM
Crooked - that's a beauty!
I would love to have a 3 1/2" birdshead.
(that's on my short list)

It is certainly strong enough to handle any commercially available ammo.
Or if you reload, any reloads that are made using published data.
As mentioned before, just don't use data from joe internet, make sure it's from a reliable source.
Lots of published reloads would be too much for that revolver. Stick with reloads designed to duplicate the original ballistics. The Army wanted the 45 long Colt to be able to shoot through a horse at 100 yards, that ought to be enough to handle most hunting needs on thi s continent.

crooked stripe
December 28, 2012, 08:11 AM
I don't think I will ever want to push the powder up go with max loads. Just comparing this Uberti with my Ruger SP101 4" in ..357 mag the Ruger doesn't Carry the mass as the Uberti. I know the Uberti is a larger caliber but is massive compared to the .375 mag. I do reload and most all of my shooting is for pleasure not pain so light loads is what they will be. Although if the urge bites I just might push some limits. The book does say good for any published SAAMI's loads. John

Clark
December 29, 2012, 03:46 AM
Crooked Stripe, the trouble with comparing 357 mag with 45 Colt stress is as follows.

My father was chief engineer over 150 engineers and draftsmen deigning military guns and vehicles for 40 years.
I asked him about calculating the stress from pressure in a gun.
He pulled out one of his WWII college text books "Mechanics of Materials" and showed me Lame's formula for thick wall tubes:
Stress = [internal pressure] [outside radius squared + inside radius squared]/ [outside radius squared - inside radius squared]
He said that for thin wall tubes it was:
Stress = [internal pressure][ inside diameter]/[outside radius - inside radius]
I asked him how he knew the thin wall formula and he yelled at me, "BY INSPECTION!"
It took me a while, but I can see it now, the larger the inside diameter, the thicker the walls have to be for a given pressure.

That is why the S&W 25-2s [.065" ] converted to 460 Rowland [39.4kcup] and the Ruger Blackhawks [.060"] shooting the 45 Colt Speer loads for Blackhawks [30kpsi]are running higher stress in the steel in the chamber walls than I am with my 45 Colt Cattleman [.045"] at 20 kpsi.

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