Do records need to be kept for Face-to-face xfers? Should I keep them anyway?


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wacki
December 14, 2012, 01:48 AM
Do records need to be kept for Face-to-face xfers? Should I keep them anyway?

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smalls
December 14, 2012, 01:51 AM
There's no federal regulations that you have to keep any records. If your state has other laws, follow them.

If you don't have to, it's completely up to you to keep then it not.

Deus Machina
December 14, 2012, 02:44 AM
Check the state laws.
You don't have to keep records, but you do have to check that the seller or buyer is a resident of the state. I ask for an ID, then write down the name later. That's it.

NavyLCDR
December 14, 2012, 09:48 AM
Check the state laws.
You don't have to keep records, but you do have to check that the seller or buyer is a resident of the state. I ask for an ID, then write down the name later. That's it.

It is not required to check in most states, nor by Federal law. It is required to have no knowledge or reasonable belief the buyer is not a resident of the same state.

For example, my next door neighbor wants to sell me a gun. In most states there is no requirement that he checks anything at all about me. He just has no reason to believe I am not prohibited in any manner, including an out of state resident.

jonnyc
December 14, 2012, 10:05 AM
If you have an 01 or 03 FFL, you must keep the records for qualifying firearms. In any case, it would probably be a good idea to keep that info in-case there are ever any legal questions about the gun.

Sav .250
December 14, 2012, 10:50 AM
If there are no state/federal requirements then I`d say it`s more of a personal choice. Some folks are more anal than others.

tyeo098
December 14, 2012, 10:55 AM
I always offer my DL and CCW for a quick 'peek' to verify I'm over 18 and a resident of VA, and not a felon. (Age on DL, felons cant get CCW's) no copying or anything, just a quick look. Buyer usually offers the same but as long as I don't think (or explicitly know) s/hes from out of town (out of state plates, etc) there is no requirement for me to see anything.

anothernewb
December 14, 2012, 11:23 AM
I've sold a handgun FTF, and while my area requires no specifics. I have a receipt with the serial# of the gun and the signature of the individual along with a basic note that reads something along the lines that the gun was sold under the knowledge that the buyer was legally able to own and purchase a handgun.

Would it ever hold up in case the buyer did anything dumb? who knows. but it was enough for me to sell it and not worry further about it.

Deus Machina
December 14, 2012, 05:03 PM
It is not required to check in most states, nor by Federal law. It is required to have no knowledge or reasonable belief the buyer is not a resident of the same state.

Well, I stand corrected; it's not required, but it is such a quick check that it's the very basic CYA act I use.

I already keep a card with all my guns and their serial number in my wallet, in the event that they're stolen. When I sell one, I just cross a line through and note 'Sold'. The file at home gets a note with the name.

henschman
December 15, 2012, 12:50 AM
I consider it safest to have a completely anonymous transaction on both ends. No ID's, no names, nothing but cash and guns changing hands. If I have no reason to believe they are prohibited, it is all good legally.

Frank Ettin
December 15, 2012, 01:15 AM
I consider it safest to have a completely anonymous transaction on both ends. No ID's, no names, nothing but cash and guns changing hands....On the other hand, in my thirty-one years of practicing law I've seen more problems arise, and be harder to fix, from a lack of records than from maintaining good records. I found it to generally be a better business practice to keep good records of transactions.

USAF_Vet
December 15, 2012, 02:22 AM
Early this year, I sold a pistol FTF to a gentleman with a CPL. In MI, you need a purchase permit to buy a hand gun, but CPL holders and exempt from this. I made up a bill of sale and took a copy to the county sheriffs office (no local PD, SD is my primary LE agency).
They would have nothing to do with the bill of sale. I was told it was not necessary. When I asked how I could be sure it was registered in the new owners name, she simply shrugged and told me it was the buyers responsibility to get it registered.

I kept the bill of sale. Possession of an unregistered pistol is a misdemeanor or civil infraction, not sure. But I still wanted proof of sale if the gun, registered in my name, turned up at a crime scene somewhere.

So, I don't know if the OP has any sort of registration. If not, it probably doesn't matter as long as the state doesn't mandate keeping a record if the sale.

If there is any registration, it's smart to keep the records regardless of whether or mnot there is any legal requirement to do so.

Texan Scott
December 15, 2012, 02:47 AM
I have never sold, traded, or given a gun to someone I didn't know. If I did, I might just want to see a voter's reg card. Tells me they're a resident of my state with no felony record, and a responsible citizen. All I need to know about them.

Nanook
December 15, 2012, 09:35 AM
In IL, you have to both have FOID cards, and keep a record of the info and the sale for 10 years for FTF sales.

Kind of Orwellian, but it's been the law as long as I can remember here. I obtained my first FOID in 1971 for a Sheridan 5mm pellet rifle.

Because it was over a certain muzzle velocity. Unreal, isn't it?

Kerf
December 15, 2012, 10:15 AM
I always feel better with a scanned image of a DL with a printed receipt with the description and serial number of the gun when buying or selling a gun. In fact, I insist upon it. Everyone’s right; it’s not required by law. But it is a professional way of conducting a transaction and it protects both parties.

“That’s not required by law; I don’t have to do that. I ain’t giving you my drivers license.” “Fine,” I say, “have a nice day”.

I’ve had two friends who were caught up in FTF transactions: one, the guns he bought were stolen and he was out his money, not to mention all the police hassle and lawyer fees; and two, the gun he sold was later used in a murder. See # 1 above. Both of these instances would have been resolved more quickly with a receipt. You really don’t want to get into this type of “he said, she said” situation if you can avoid it. Any person who’s on the up and up shouldn’t object, in my opinion.

Eb1
December 15, 2012, 10:20 AM
It would be wise to do so. They have great forms from the Internet that keep it very professional. If they will not fill out the form. I will not sell it to them.

mgkdrgn
December 15, 2012, 11:24 AM
Nobody ever got fired for having too much documentation.

mg.mikael
December 16, 2012, 12:05 PM
I consider it safest to have a completely anonymous transaction on both ends. No ID's, no names, nothing but cash and guns changing hands. If I have no reason to believe they are prohibited, it is all good legally.

Personally, I couldn't agree less with you. You're walking a fine line, because what you just said basically means that a kid who looks 'older' then 21 could buy a gun from you because you didn't check his ID to see age. If you don't check the name and then the ID how do you know they match the person buying the gun?.... without a name and verifying it by ID you have no idea that the person is who he/she says they are.

To me your taking a big risk, and this is what the gun control advocates love to feed on as it adds to the fire.

Sam1911
December 16, 2012, 12:08 PM
Personally, I couldn't agree less with you. You're walking a fine line, because what you just said basically means that a kid who looks 'older' then 21 could buy a gun from you because you didn't check his ID to see age. If you don't check the name and then the ID how do you know they match the person buying the gun?.... without a name and verifying it by ID you have no idea that the person is who he/she says they are.
But the law doesn't say we have to VERIFY any of those things. The law (federally at least) says "know or have reason to know."

It is not expected nor required that a private citizen have the ability to prove that this person is who he/she says, is from where he/she says he/she is from, or isn't handing you a fake ID, or just lying.

mg.mikael
December 16, 2012, 12:18 PM
But the law doesn't say we have to VERIFY any of those things.

Why should that prevent gun owners from taking the 'high road.' It takes just a minute to look at an ID and then the person you're selling the gun to, hence verifying that the person on ID is the person you are selling the gun to. By not checking an ID the person could be underage, not even have an ID (illegal immigrant or not), or simply be thief lying to you as they don't match the person on an ID. Would this suddenly stop all crime, no, but it also does no harm either to air on the side of caution.

Sam1911
December 16, 2012, 12:45 PM
If YOU decide to, that's fine. It is perfectly within your rights to place whatever limits or conditions you wish on the sale of your personal property.

I am quite opposed to gun control in all its forms, and I don't/won't go one inch farther than the law forces me to in promoting it -- in general. I may choose not to sell to someone for my own reasons, but if I do agree to sell to them, I'm not jumping, or making them jump through even the tiniest hoop beyond what the law requires.

JohnBT
December 16, 2012, 01:47 PM
"a completely anonymous transaction"

Unless it's a relative. :) I certainly don't want some stranger telling all his drinking and fishing buddies about buying my gun and flashing the receipt with my name and address on it.

"Hey, I bet he has more guns at his house."

John

bigfatdave
December 16, 2012, 02:00 PM
Exceeding the requirements of the law is silly and will get you laughed at.

There is no ethical requirement to track the buyer of personal tool you sell. Guns are not a special category except in the minds of the hopolophobes. If you sell someone a lawnmower and they use it to shred kittens, are you responsible? If someone buys your Axe and embeds it in the skull of their pastor, are you responsible? If you give a belt to Goodwill and it is eventually used to strangle an infant, is it your fault?

If your old gun is used in a crime, the investigation will lead to actual likely subjects LONG before it gets through the paperwork chain to find out who bought that AutoBlaster1000 back in 1996. Even if the po-po do come knocking on your door, you have no obligation to remember the disposition of every told you ever let go.

What is all this nonsense about "making a copy of the DL", or "keeping a file"?
It smacks of a fear of either the object sold or the government.

plexreticle
December 16, 2012, 02:06 PM
bigfatdave said it perfectly.

The government has enough regulations, why would someone want to make up more?

NavyLCDR
December 16, 2012, 03:02 PM
This is the way I have done it in the past. I have printed a two part bill of sale, prior to meeting the seller/purchaser. It said, "I, _______, did receive one Ruger 10/22 serial number 12345 from __________ for the purchase price of $100 on Jan. 1, 2010. Signed by buyer." The second half was, "I, _______, did receive $100 from ________ on Jan. 1, 2010 in payment for one Ruger 10/22 serial number 12345. Signed by me." Tear the paper in half, give the buyer the receipt I signed for their money, I keep the receipt they signed for the gun. Never felt the need to verify a driver's license because the people buying my guns and whom I have bought guns from have all shown up in vehicles with in-state license plates and were respectably dressed and usually made comments like, "I had a rifle like this when I was a kid and I want one for my son." or "I've got a 9mm now and I want to move up to something bigger." If they showed up and I could hear the boom boom from their car before seeing them and they were wearing their pants around their knees, I would just drive away.

Then I would usually lose the receipt for the gun within the first week......

I don't see the need for government regulation of private sales of guns any more than whatever else might be bought or sold at a garage sale.

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