[catfish]

I just got Paco Kellys 22 acu'rzr. This is real quality stuff A MUST for target shooting OR hunting! :eek: I thought I would post this link so you guys / gals can see it. I think its great! :)
http://www.leverguns.com/store/acurizer.htm

[P95Carry]

I'd certainly like to experiment with these ..... anyone else tried them out .. be interested to hear more about them from users.


http://www.leverguns.com/store/images/ph34.jpg


http://www.leverguns.com/store/images/2bulacu.jpg

[Sisco]

Do a search at www.rimfirecentral.com the Paco tool has been discused quite a bit over there.

[P95Carry]

Thx Sisco . yes, quite a lot of refences ...... but this comment seemed fairly typical ..... Yes, one needs to strike the chosen reshaping rod with either a rawhide or plastic mallet. Be sure that you place the tool on a hard, smooth surface before striking. I have reshaped 1000's of rounds and never had a problem. It takes a surprisingly weak blow from the hammer to produce the intended results. If one were to have something under the rim of the cartridge I suppose it would discharge altho Mr. Kelly tried many, many times to make one discharge before he was successful(?) and no damage was done as neither the bullet nor the rod were expelled from the tool.

These things work in all of my rifles producing measurably smaller groups in two NS522's, a CZ American, Mossberg Model 43 target, Norinco JW-15 and a Remington 511 at ranges of 50 yards and further. I think it is worth looking into.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

ziplock over on .22world.com has good things to say about his Paco tool- unfortunately the .22world forums have been down now for almost a month.

[461]

I received mine a week or so ago. I've reshaped about a hundred rounds so far, but have yet to hit the range. I'm planning a trip on Saturday though.

I'm pretty impressed with the concept and the execution of the tool. I've read a lot of Paco's writings and expected nothing less from him. Looking forward to wringing the little devils out.

[P95Carry]

I'm gonna go for it .. be an interesting experiment.

[Akurat]

Hrm any idea how much it slows the bullet down?

[P95Carry]

Thus far - I'd not expect any significant change in velocity . and will try and fine time to do some Chrono comparisons eventually ... when i get mine thru and into use.

If there is a slight (miniscule) reduction then I doubt that would matter if the trade off is toward consistency and thus tighter accuracy. maybe airodynamically the change of profile might reduce velocity a bit quicker thru a change in drag but ... again I don't see this as a problem at average .22 ranges ... which I regard as 50 yds for all usual and practical purposes.

[tc300mag1]

id like to see some groups with the kit b4 i buy one

[P95Carry]

tc300 ... if you are prepared to wait a bit .. I will endevor once I have mine .. to do some comparisons with photo documentation. Time as ever is and will be the problem but i am interested to see how this comes out.

Could be a month down the line .. at least.!

[BluesBear]

The muzzle velocity should remain the same. But since the ballistic coefficient has changed the down range velocities could be different.

[BHPshooter]

Chris -- please do tell us how it turns out. That's some pretty wicked expansion for a .22.

Thanks,
Wes

[4v50 Gary]

Intriguing. 461, we expect a full report with photos after your range trip. :)

[461]

The Digital camera is all ready to go, unfortunately my Chronograph is not. Chrony should be in within a week or so though. I'll be able to show accuracy this weekend but not expansion as the range I'm using won't allow me back in the pits.

I'll be shooting through my Daughters Bearcat, my Sons Cricket, and my M6 as well as my MKII target. I think that'll give a pretty good impression of accuracy changes. I've only got Federal bulk on hand though as it has proved accurate in all weapons but the M6 as it is brand new. We'll see.

[Amish_Bill]

I wonder if the flatter nose profile will affect feed in semi-autos?

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Amish_Bill- I asked this very question over on .22World forum and never got an answer. I'd be very interested to know as well.

[Triad]

Have there been any gelatin tests using the modified bullets?

[Ryder]

Those look pretty nice! I'll have to get one of those. Sure beats clipping the round nose off with wire cutters and cloggin up my files.

[461]

Well, the shooting is done and I have a verdict. I beleive accuracy to be improved slightly, but not to any miraculous degree. I've got a target in the truck I'll measure out tomorrow and throw up a photo as well.

The accuracy improvement is due (imo) to the round fitting the barrel tighter as the rounds sized .224 were more accurate than the .223 rounds. Each tool Paco makes is double sided, one side to th esize you request, and the other side is one thousandth smaller. Mine is .224/.223, I beleive he will do .225 as well.

I didn't do a full on scientific test of every conceivable combination out of each rimfire I own. I was there to have fun too. :D One thing you might be interested in is that the reformed rounds did tend to hang up in my Ruger MKII Target as I had several FTF's which is unusual for this pistol. I also found it curious that there was a noticeable sound difference between the .223 and .224 rounds, I'm going to assume this is because the .224 created a higher pressure but it's just a guess.

I'll post more on it tomorrow, bottom line is performance on game which may take me a while to check.

[catfish]

Well I just finished reforming 200 rds to the larger hollow point (nastinose)
I will be of to the range in the A.M.
I will post what I found out when I get back ,I will also check the speeds.
That is if the wind dont blow 30mph like it did today! :banghead:

[catfish]

well the wind blew,but i did get some testing done.
remington golden factory 4 shots @15 yd=0.381"
nastinose 4 shots=0.282.
The point of impact did not change ,and the reformed 22s are much better hunting ammo. all fired from a ruger mkII with 100% feed/fire.
This ammo cost 8.95 for 550 rds.
Paco Kellys tool works.
I'm sold. :D :D

[461]

THat about mirrors my experience, except for the group size. :cuss: I'm sold as well, I didn't use the nastinose punch though, I just used the flatpointer as my rounds were already hollowpoints. I've still got to try out the nastinose punch and the hollowpointer. I've used both punches on a few rounds, just not shot any for groups yet.

Sorry about the picture of my targets, and no it's not because my groups sucked compared to Catfish's. I'm too technically challenged to figure out the whole picture upload thing. I'm working on it though.

[P95Carry]

Thx for feedback catfish .. I shall hope to have mine in a week or so . and then will try and do some of my own experimenting.

[P95Carry]

461 .. re posting pics .. you may find some help HERE (http://www.bedford.net/design/img_matters/basefile/posting.htm) .... which is part of a mini site I put up to try and help folks with image stuff generally .. it may assist I hope.

[denfoote]

Question.
I thought it was illegal to make "dum dum" bullets.
I may be wrong, but that is what I always thought.
Please enlighten me!! :(

[Amish_Bill]

I think you've got a bit of the Geneva Convention stuck in your head. There is a bit that says bullets designed specifically to cause undue suffering should not be used in war. That's why our guys use ball ammo in their pistols instead of HP and standard ball or match HP (non-expanding) in their rifles instead of soft point or ballistic tip.

For civilian use & consumption, the rules are much more relaxed. With the small (yet annoying) exception of pistol caliber armor piercing, very little is forbidden. Some states or localities might be more restrictive, but that's purely a localized bit of guano.

Dum Dum... odd term I haven't heard in a while. Honestly, I can't even place exactly what it is supposed to describe. Ahh... the miracles of Google... Here are two links that talk about and describe them.
http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/dumdum.htm
http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjust/200011/0076.html

[BluesBear]

I think you've got a bit of the Geneva Convention stuck in your head. You too.

The big thing the Geneva convention deals with is the humane treatment or enemy combatants, civilians and prisoners.

It's the Haque Accord that deals with what ammunition is and is not proper. Although the US is not a signator, it usually conforms to it.

[Gewehr98]

Because it almost looks like one is making a semi-wadcutter out of the rounds, with a better bore-riding surface as a side benefit. I could see where a heavy-barrel 10/22 FrankenRuger might actually benefit from the altered round, assuming they'd feed ok.

I'll ask the same question over at RimfireCentral.com, and see what it kicks up.

[461]

Well, here goes an attempt at a picture of a target. The left side is from my Daughters Bearcat, top is un altered federal bulk, bottom is same ammo run through the .224 sizer and flatnosed. Right side is from my Mark II Target, same drill top and bottom. All groups fired offhand at 25 meters.

Sorry I didn't get to give a more thorough session, but I had the kids with me and it's pretty tough to concentrate in that e nvironment with your kids there even if they are well behaved. You just can't take any chances.

[P95Carry]

461 ....... try and visit that images deal of mine I mentioned .. the link is thru the ''Library'' link at top right of page.

I took the liberty of grabbing the target image and tweaking a bit .. converted to gray scale and lifted it somewhat . I'll try and post it for you here.

Not easy to tell major differences between one and the other .. I guess to really nail this would require some bench rest conditions. Plus I can imagine what you meant re the kids being there! :) Still ... pretty good effort.


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=855885

[Kodiak AK]

How do these things work?You are doing this to loaded rimfire ammo right? Do you need a press or is it a hand tool deal?
:confused:

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Hand tool w/ a hammer... and a light touch.:D

[Kodiak AK]

Light touch?:eek:

So how many people have had a round go off while doing this?

[DeadCalm]

P95Carry,
Thanks so much for your technical post. While not having gotten completely through it, so far you presented one of the clearest explanations on these subjects that I've read. Well done with thanks again.
Ross

[461]

Thanks P95Carry, your tweaks made the image much clearer. I did read your tutorial and plan to mess with it sometime soon, my wife bought me this great digital camera and I feel like an idiot because I can't figure out how to post anything. :o If work and life would leave me alone for a minute I think I'd be much better at a lot of stuff.

[Mr. Mysterious]

Darn you guys...another toy that just got placed on my short list.

[P95Carry]

My ''combo'' set appeared in the mail today ... and tho you have seen pics from Paco's site ... thought I'd show one or two more. I have quickly tried it out (well, ya gotta ''play'' ain't ya!! :p ).

Here is the tool set .. the main body on left is double-ended . so you can choose whether to modify and so size - the bullet to .223 or .224. This end with the four punch marks is the .224. In fact, mic'ing up after use, it would seem they are nearer to .225.

The forming tools are, from left ... the slightly dishing tool, to produce something of a wad cutter nose. Then, the one to produce a hollow point and on the right is the version that makes a hollow point with center post.


http://www.bedford.net/design/shoot3/pacotools_01_s.jpg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The rounds I experimented on were Fed HP's ... bulk box, and Eley solids.

They are shown next to each other for comparison, with Eley's being on left of each pair. From left ... the HP with center post, then the slightly dished wadcutter form and finally the HP.

As can be seen ... solids and HP's form much the same overall, tho the Fed HP's lend themselves to increasing the HP quite nicely, judging by appearance. These examples are not perfect ... it was just a quick trial.

http://www.bedford.net/design/shoot3/paco_22s_s.jpg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I have yet to find time for tests but will do so. The effort required to form these is quite modest . I placed the working set-up on a solid nylon block and used a hard rubber mallet. My main concern will be consistency of operation and I am considering making a small jig with a padded dropper weight. This would allow for a drop from a calibrated and marked level and thus same impact every time.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

...a padded dropper weight. This would allow for a drop from a calibrated and marked level and thus same impact every time.Clever.

But I wonder if that level of repeatability is really necessary.

Actually, I take it back. I can see it being needed to prevent under forming the round. Hmm. I think I may have to pick one of these things up and fiddle around with it.

[Kodiak AK]

P95 I can't realy tell , but it apears the tool is rebated enough to not allow the rim to contact the tool at all is this correct? I am extreamly leary of haveing a round shoot out of what is esentual a short smooth bore with my hands over it . After haveing a 9mm round I seated to far blow on my Lyman hand press about five years ago , I am more carefull now .

Would it be possable for you to snap a pic with a round in the tool for us to see how deep it is seated in there?

[P95Carry]

Kodiak ..... t appears the tool is rebated enough to not allow the rim to contact the tool at all is this correct? Yes indeed ... it is rebated by about 1/16 ... and when in use the case rim is well clear of the holder.

Paco Kelly describes how he tried to induce a round to fire ..... and it was almost impossible until the whole deal was tilted to 10º on a very hard surface and really belted hard as could be .. and when it did fire, the case ruptured and blew out at the base .. this I guess was because it happened at the instant of the impact from above which contained things from blowing upwards ... it took least line of resistance.

I have no qualms at all using this ... it would take almost idiotic abuse to make it dangerous. Note, I used mine on a nylon block, and apploied quite light blows with a hard rubber mallet.

Come back a bit later and I will show close-ups to help make the pioint for you.

[P95Carry]

Kodiak ..... here we go. First go refresh on my first pic ... and take note .... there are actually two rebates . the obvious one, the inner .. is approx 1/4" deep ...... the outer is more subtle ..... and is the area machined down from outer dia, to the inner rebate .. which I think I'd approximate at 1/16".

So .. a case rim would have to go in about 3/8" before it contacts on its front face.

Now ... first pic .... this is a fresh unmodified round ..... pushed in as far as it will go safely .... it binds up and would need a lot of whacking to go further! You'll see, that the rim is still nowhere near the smallest inner diameter.

http://www.bedford.net/design/shoot3/paco_cu01_s.jpg




Now look at this second pic ..... here, I have placed the device on the ''whacking block''! And eased the round down to where it contacts the block, ready for modifying .. so this is if you like the ''operating'' position. It shows well just how well clear that rim is from anything.

http://www.bedford.net/design/shoot3/paco_cu02_s.jpg



I reckon about the only way you'd stand any chance of making a round go off, would be to purposely rest that round's base on something real sharp and pointy ... and whack hell out of it! Even then, remember .. there is nothing to act as an ''anvil'' as would normally be the case with a round in a chamber, so no way to really distort the rim enough IMO.

I guess there is no such thing as 100% ''certainty'' and ''safe'' - with anything - but this sure is 99.999999% safe IMO and gives me no worries with useage.

HTH.
:)

[rock jock]

Excellent thread. More range results please, preferably from a bench.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Chris- great pics; now we need a range report with all the trimmings.

edit- forgot to ask, and I don't recall seeing it posted before, but what was the price on the thing?

[P95Carry]

what was the price on the thing? Chris ..... quoting from The site (http://www.leverguns.com/store/acurizer.htm) THERE ARE THREE SELECTIONS YOU CAN CHOOSE FROM, FOR AN ORDER....

**1. THE ORIGINAL, BUT NEWLY DESIGNED ACU’RZR WITH THE DISH AND NASTI-NOSE FORMING RODS.... PHASE III. THAT IS $37 PLUS $5.00 for shipping.

**2 THE BABY SCORP’N HAS THE B-SCORP’N AND DISH FORMING RODS, WITH THE HEAVY BASED TOOL. THAT IS $42 PLUS $5.00 for shipping.

**3 AND THEN THERE IS THE COMBO-ACU’RZR WHICH HAS ALL THE FORMING RODS ON THE HEAVY TOOL BODY FOR $52 PLUS $5.00 for shipping. Not the cheapest of things but the guys turns them up himself and that's quite a bit of machining .. deceptive.

As far as testing goes .... I'll make up some rounds in readiness but will need to sneak off to my local range one weekday - make sure it's empty and settle down to some comparisons ... from a bench, of course.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

$37 and change? That's not too bad. I just need the 'dish nose' tool' really. I don't need to make EXTREME ULTIMATE hollow-points; but .22 wadcutters would be cool.

I need to go lurk over at rimfirecentral.com and see if people have been having issues with feeding- not just in semi-autos but bolt guns as well.

Thanks Chris... way too many 'Chris's on this board...

[Kodiak AK]

Great pics and explenation . I am sold thanx .:)