Why not 45 super?


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Scoob
December 14, 2012, 09:13 PM
If there's one handgun cartridge that I wish would catch on, this is the one. I know 45 acp is the "sacred cow" but to me, 45 super is the same cartridge...updated.

I don't think 45 super is better because it's more powerful, but because it has the capabilty to be. It could replace 45 acp and be loaded to whatever power level you would need for the situation. 45 acp ballistics have proven to be wonderful for service and self defence use and you could have that same magic in a 45 super, but if you wanted more it would be capable.

Now feed reliabilty may require a spring change but 45 super could even be downloaded to competition level so what would we be losing? Heck, guns could even come equiped with two recoil springs.

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OregonJohnny
December 14, 2012, 09:32 PM
I'm with you. .45 Super seems to me, on paper at least, to be a great candidate for a semi-auto woods defense/hunting round. Buffalo Bore has a .45 Super round with the following specs: .452 diameter, 255-grains, hardcast lead flat nose bullet, doing almost 1,100 fps. from a 5-inch barrel - what does that sound like? .45 Colt. And most will say the .45 Colt is a superb choice for a wilderness round.

Now picture 7 to 13 rounds of this in a fast-shooting lightweight semi-auto. What's not to like?

I think a good platform candidate for the round would be a Sig 220 Match Elite stainless. A steel frame, 5-inch barrel, and stainless finish. Add some heavy springs, and let the fun begin.

hentown
December 14, 2012, 09:39 PM
I just don't get excited about dumping a little more powder in a .45ACP case. If do find 10mm more interesting.

jonnyc
December 14, 2012, 09:46 PM
It's not a pistol, but I load .45 Super ammo for my .45 ACP No.4 Enfield carbine. Very accurate at 50-75 yards, and imparts a nice THWACK!

Scoob
December 14, 2012, 10:10 PM
I like 10mm too hentown but there is one big difference. When you compare 10mm to 40sw, the 10mm is a longer cartridge that requires a larger gun and that is why .40 has a need. This is not the case with .45 super. You don't have to dump more powder into a 45 super. It can be a 45 acp in every way except the headstamp but when if you want more power, it's there to be had.

The 45 acp was developed a long time ago and all that case capacity is wasted compared to what it could be today. Versatilty without any drawbacks.

rcmodel
December 14, 2012, 10:16 PM
On the otherhand, the .45 ACP / .45 Colt (230-250 @ 830-900) has been proven time and again to be the most power you can control rapidly in a handy size & packable weight handgun.

If you need more power then that?

You probably really need a .44 Magnum revolver, or a rifle, or shotgun.

rc

calaverasslim
December 14, 2012, 10:20 PM
I must be missing somethng. I read these posts and then check the Hodgdon site and find the 45 super and 45acp virtually the same.

What am I missing???

Scoob
December 14, 2012, 10:28 PM
Calaverasslim - .45 acp and .45 super have identical outer demensions. 45 super brass was formed from the .451 detonics. It handles higher pressures.

Texan Scott
December 14, 2012, 10:36 PM
I don't own a .45 yet, never have. Is this a matter of concern with 45s, that the standard load is an inadequate stopper? I always heard it was like the gold standard or something, like my 357s. Did I drink fanboy kool-aid, should I be considering a heavier caliber?

rcmodel
December 15, 2012, 01:12 AM
OH yea!

A 230 @ 850 - 900 is anemic and wouldn't hurt a fly.

What you really need is a 230 @ 1,000 - 1,100.

That kicks worser, flashes in the dark more, hurts your ears worse, makes you flinch better, jerk the trigger harder, slows you down on fast double taps more, and beats the snot out of your 1911 frame faster.

Yea!
I got to gets me some of that right there!!

rc

Onmilo
December 15, 2012, 04:34 AM
Biggest problem with the .45 Super isn't the cartridge, like the 10mm it is the platform choices available to fire the cartridge.
Both are ecellent cartridges that are hindered by the lack of acceptable, durable, comfortably ergonomic and affordable pistols available for the cartridges.

hentown
December 15, 2012, 10:17 AM
I like 10mm too hentown but there is one big difference. When you compare 10mm to 40sw, the 10mm is a longer cartridge that requires a larger gun and that is why .40 has a need. This is not the case with .45 super. You don't have to dump more powder into a 45 super. It can be a 45 acp in every way except the headstamp but when if you want more power, it's there to be had.

The 45 acp was developed a long time ago and all that case capacity is wasted compared to what it could be today. Versatilty without any drawbacks.



I dont quite follow your logic. How did .40 get into the conversation? I shoot 10mm from the same sized Glocks that I shoot .45ACP from. I also don't have to dump a more powder in a 10mm case. I can load them to .40 velocities.

I shoot a lot of .45ACP and have shot both .45Super and .450smc through G21s. The .45 Super just doesn't appeal to me. I think it's a lousy s.d. round, and I don't hunt with my handguns.

Thompsoncustom
December 15, 2012, 12:10 PM
I have shoot .45 super out of a few guns and yes I do fell that from a cartridge stand point it does make the .45 acp obsolete because you can do everything the same plus more.

I just don't get excited about dumping a little more powder in a .45ACP case. If do find 10mm more interesting.

In high weight bullets their the same for the most part but I believe .45 super can push really heavy bullets fast than 10mm and it works the same the other way as 10mm can push light ones faster tho I'm not sure they even make .45 down as low as you can go with 10mm.

Is the extra flash/recoil worth the gain in velocity? Personal opinion I guess, you can't have both.

Jaymo
December 15, 2012, 12:40 PM
For hunting, it is.

Elkins45
December 15, 2012, 02:02 PM
On the otherhand, the .45 ACP / .45 Colt (230-250 @ 830-900) has been proven time and again to be the most power you can control rapidly in a handy size & packable weight handgun.


I would argue this hasn't been proven for everyone.

Bovice
December 15, 2012, 05:45 PM
OH yea!

A 230 @ 850 - 900 is anemic and wouldn't hurt a fly.

What you really need is a 230 @ 1,000 - 1,100.

That kicks worser, flashes in the dark more, hurts your ears worse, makes you flinch better, jerk the trigger harder, slows you down on fast double taps more, and beats the snot out of your 1911 frame faster.

Yea!
I got to gets me some of that right there!!

rc
LOL!

The .45 auto has it's good reputation built up from the days where there was only round nose projectiles. If it has that kind of rep from a basic/primitive design, it's only gotten better with JHPs.

45 super is a novelty, and might give an edge in limited circumstance. But .45 auto is plenty enough cartridge in its low pressure form.

orionengnr
December 15, 2012, 07:51 PM
I have one each 1911 in .45 Super and 10mm...which is pretty convenient for this thread. As far as revolvers go, I have one in .45LC, and it is my favorite revolver cartridge.

I am not a handgun hunter or a serious competitor. I like to shoot, and I find handloading enjoyable and satisfying.

I consider myself incredibly fortunate to live in a special time and place that affords us such a broad spread of options. As a handloader, I can enjoy each of these rounds.

Bottom line (for me): As simple and inexpensive a mod as .45 Super is, why not try it? (It is essentially a set of springs for a 1911, and most quality revolvers will require zero modification). A .45 Super conversion is easily reversible if you don't like it. Yes, factory ammo is rare and pricey, but .45 Super brass is available from Starline.

In comparison, the 10mm and the .45LC will (with a few exceptions) require dedicated guns for these rounds. The good news is that they are both extremely versatile cartridges, and can be loaded from Powder Puff to Train Stopper.

Mr.510
December 16, 2012, 08:20 PM
45 Super... YES!!!

I think 45 Super is a great cartridge and frankly don't understand why anybody would prefer 10mm over it? The platforms that work well with 10mm work well with 45 Super. The two cartridges seem to beat and batter the guns they're fired from about the same. All that is typically required to shoot 45 Super in a .45ACP handgun is a fully supported chamber and a heavier recoil spring. Auto loaders with 5" barrels are recommended due to the heavier mass of their slides.

The biggest thing that I think is cool with 45 Super is that with nearly any "converted" handgun you can still shoot standard .45ACP without even changing back to a stock recoil spring. Many people have fired a few boxes of full-house 45 Super through factory stock 5" XD45s with no apparent ill effects, without even changing the recoil spring! (I would not do this.) One comment was that the brass flew so far there's no way you were ever going to find it! :what:

I wouldn't carry 45 Super for self defense primarily against two legged animals. Just like 10mm I think it would over penetrate and be less effective than .45ACP. But for woods carry? To be able to just swap to a mag of Super and have ballistics comparable to 10mm and .45 Colt? Why not? Do your range practice with WWB .45ACP or similar, carry in the city with HSTs or +Ps, and switch to 45 Super for the sticks/woods. Carry a reload on your person? Load that with 45 Super and you've got the best of both worlds any time you need it.

Test and tune the recoil spring weight to work with all the ammo you want to shoot and once proven you don't have to use 45 Super for practice anymore if you don't want to beat up your gun. Like any other cartridge considered for self defense you should put a couple hundred rounds down the tube to be sure you've got reliable operation. A couple hundred rounds to prove reliability isn't going to do much, if any, frame battering damage. Of course thousands of round of Super would be hard on a gun, just like 10mm is. I read somewhere that 45 Super is actually a little bit easier on frames and slides than 10mm but I cannot remember where to quote it here.

I think one of the big reasons 45 Super hasn't caught on and ammo isn't available from larger manufacturers is that Ace Custom 45s owns the name "45 Super". All ammo and brass marked as such has to be licensed by them. Similarly nobody else can engrave "45 Super" as the chambering on a firearm. By trademarking the name Ace has nearly killed the cartridge. :(

Another note on brass for reloaders: You can make 45 Super brass out of .308/7.62x51 brass. I've saved up a bunch of .308 brass that my Saiga pretty well destroyed to someday use for this purpose.

Deaf Smith
December 16, 2012, 10:28 PM
.45 Super? I love it in my 625-3 3 inch .45 ACP revolver.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=176000&d=1355098863

Eats it like candy. Excellent ammo for hog out here in Texas. And that 3 inch snub is not bad for CCW.

Deaf

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