TAZER? I'm 19 and work prohibits guns. *My eye opening encounter at a Cafe*


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CoyoteSix
December 15, 2012, 07:29 AM
Hey folks! So as the thread title says I'm under 21 (19) and an avid shooter. I frequently open carry around town except where prohibited ( The Mall, Movie Theatre). However lately I've had a dilemma, my workplace ( A truckstop in the middle of nowhere Idaho) does not allow employees to bring guns to work, on or off the clock. CC or open risking termination. (Although customers can)

I hadn't been worrying about this until tonight. I was enjoying an omelet in the truck stop's cafe after a late shift. I had been chatting with the cafe cook and waitress. A little after I start eating my hash browns a family comes in. Two larger males, wife and newborn.

The two males were obviously intoxicated, having declared so while being waited on by my coworker/friend.

I dismissed them until they started cursing loudly and becoming unruly. They began becoming a ruckus and generally being a nuisance.

Still I dismissed them, "They're just having a good time" I kept telling myself. Now what bothered me was when one of the males began casually smoking a cigarette. Now I've nothing against smokers, But when it is in the same dining area of a newborn, AND in a no smoking area, I begin to notice.

The male who started smoking than looked right at me and yelled: "You a Cop?!"

I not to toot my own horn but I am well built and for some reason, Look like a Law Enforcement Officer.

At that point I became very uncomfortable. Wishing my .40 S&W Glock was on my hip, and realizing my EDC knife wouldn't be enough if these two Drunken men decided to pick a fight. I also don't want to stab anybody, could I? Probably. But I don't want a bloody mess on my hands.

In the end I let them know I wasn't LE. Criminal Justice major yes, not LE. Backing down with a little pride hurt, but certainly worth avoiding a confrontation.

So since Idaho approves of Civilian use of Tazers in concealed carry without a permit and they are not by law a firearm, would you recommend them for a young shooter who can't CC for another couple years?

This is concerning for me and THR offers the most sound advice.

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ilbob
December 15, 2012, 07:36 AM
I think you need to consider just why you would want to carry a gun in the first place. There did not seem to be any remote reason these guys would have constituted a threat that would require the use of deadly force.

I think you need to look deep inside yourself on this one. There is something about your story that troubles me and it is not the drunks that bother me.

It is not your job to worry about someone smoking, or to try and stare down drunks.

I think you may have missed the whole point of the drunk asking if you were a cop or not. I suspect it was more along the lines of MYOB, which is a good idea.

CoyoteSix
December 15, 2012, 07:55 AM
IlBob: I wasn't staring down the drunk, I probably should've clarified that part. :D

The smoking is what caught my eye, unfortunately the drunk noticed me noticing.

I wouldn't of used deadly force unless it was a last resort. I believe that a gun is the last thing that should be on my mind in a confrontation. Avoidance, A non aggressive attitude, and composed negotiating/"talking down" are all barriers I would use in an event. I also believe the gun doesn't simply come out if all else fails.

1. Warn aggressor 2. Place hand on holstered weapon and warn again. 3. Draw weapon and disengage safety and warn. 4. Last warning and if the aggressor doesn't stop, well. 4. Deadly force.

Now usually I'd agree that this guy might just be curious. However his body language and tone of voice told me other wise. I'm sorry for the lack of detail but he didn't have a very playful demeanor to him. He simply looked tense and maintained an aware/aggressive posture.

The Tazer would also act as a barrier to the gun. I don't want to have to resort to the gun at all. If I can stop with the Tazer. Especially if just the presence of the Tazer is enough. I will.

Please don't think I'm a trigger happy youth. I didn't carry for a while, simply because I did have to question myself. I will acknowledge that I am young with much to learn. But I like to think I'm not one of the trigger happy nuts that makes the gun community look bad.

I carry to protect myself and others, not simply to show that I own a gun.

Apple a Day
December 15, 2012, 08:48 AM
Please don't think I'm a trigger happy youth.
Your screen name is "Kick-Down-Doors". That and your post pretty much scream 'Jack Booted Thug Wannabee'. Go take your med's, have a bran muffin, and rethink. You seriously need to unwind it a few notches.

45_auto
December 15, 2012, 08:54 AM
At that point I became very uncomfortable. Wishing my .40 S&W Glock was on my hip, and realizing my EDC knife wouldn't be enough if these two Drunken men decided to pick a fight. I also don't want to stab anybody, could I? Probably. But I don't want a bloody mess on my hands.

In the end I let them know I wasn't LE. Criminal Justice major yes, not LE. Backing down with a little pride hurt, but certainly worth avoiding a confrontation.

The tone I get from your post is that your knife wasn't enough, but if your .40 S&W Glock was on your hip you wouldn't have had to back down with your pride hurt.

There's a reason there are laws preventing teenagers from carrying guns. The vast majority are still mentally immature and full of raging hormones. Hopefully by the time you're physically old enough to legally carry a gun, your mental processes will also have matured enough for you to be a reasonable member of society.

As far as carrying a Taser, I wouldn't even consider it unless you have a firearm as backup. We have to be Tased as one of the qualifications to carry a Taser, and I've seen too many cases where they're ineffective even in training.

If you had used a Taser in the situation you discussed, even if it was effective on the one you tased, the most likely outcome would be that the other one would have taken advantage of the opportunity and helped you insert the Taser where the sun don't shine.

If you thought their smoking in a no-smoking zone around their kid was a serious issue, best thing you could have done was walk out and call the cops (even though they would have laughed at you too, but they wouldn't do it in front of your face and hurt your pride). If cellphones don't work in a truckstop in nowhere Idaho, I bet they have a landline.

BSA1
December 15, 2012, 09:07 AM
TAZERS are "less than lethal" meaning they can and have caused the death of the victim.

mjkten
December 15, 2012, 09:17 AM
Don't want to be too hard on you, situations like this can make your blood boil in a hurry, and for really no reason. As you seemed to understand, this was not a self defense situation, or even one where weapons would have been a factor. I appreciate your "situational awareness" and think that you may need to develop some soft skills in dealing with people. This will be even more important if you decide to become a LEO. Not everything is "my way or the highway" especially if physical confrontation is not necessary.

ilbob
December 15, 2012, 09:28 AM
1. Warn aggressor 2. Place hand on holstered weapon and warn again. 3. Draw weapon and disengage safety and warn. 4. Last warning and if the aggressor doesn't stop, well. 4. Deadly force.


By aggressor you mean someone smoking in the diner where you are a dish washer?

You really do need to rethink your ideas.

If you need to use deadly force, there is very little chance you will be warning anyone first, much less give a second, third, and 4th warning as you are apparently advocating by what you wrote.

If you have time to give 4 warnings, you have time to run away.

wickedsprint
December 15, 2012, 09:53 AM
If someone scares you enough that you wish you had your gun, why would you tell them you're a criminal justice major?

danez71
December 15, 2012, 10:54 AM
Why cant people just answer the questions and offer advice on how to deal with the situation instead of playing internet psychologist and randomly insinuate things toward the OP?

So far, he been told:

*Take his meds.

*Have a bran muffin

*Not to stare down drunks and mind his own business (of which if he said he didnt look or notice the drunks, he'd be accused of not having situational awarness)

*That he's a dish washer

Are these THR quality responses?


Whats with the 'pile it on' mentality?

wickedsprint
December 15, 2012, 11:15 AM
Why cant people just answer the questions and offer advice on how to deal with the situation instead of playing internet psychologist and randomly insinuate things toward the OP?

So far, he been told:

*Take his meds.

*Have a bran muffin

*Not to stare down drunks and mind his own business (of which if he said he didnt look or notice the drunks, he'd be accused of not having situational awarness)

*That he's a dish washer

Are these THR quality responses?


Whats with the 'pile it on' mentality?

He asked for our advice.

We didn't ask for yours.

danez71
December 15, 2012, 11:25 AM
He asked for our advice.

We didn't ask for yours.


I didnt give advice. I made observations and a couple questions.

I actually think you had a good question - no need to get defensive.

'take your meds' 'eat a bran muffin' 'youre a dishwasher' have no relevance and are meant to be derogatory.

Certaindeaf
December 15, 2012, 11:54 AM
How was that an "eye opening experience"? Some people are snots. Get used to it.

JShirley
December 15, 2012, 12:55 PM
I can see how someone smoking inside and becoming loudly unruly at your workplace can be disturbing.

Why would your pride be hurt that you're not law enforcement? (Warning sign- one of several in your posts, as is the need to explain your background to aggressive drunks.)

I do, definitely, understand the caution expressed by some members. The appropriate course of actions are:

1) If the customers are becoming unruly, restaurant staff should ask them to leave.
2) After being asked to leave/stop smoking/etc, if the customer does not comply, law enforcement may then reasonably be called. The customer is committing criminal trespass, and it sounds like d&d and public drunkenness, as well.

I have suffered through many use-of-force briefings. You seem to have a firm law enforcement framework for your use of force. Are you law enforcement? No. Since you're not law enforcement, your use of that framework is not only incorrect, but it can get you in legal trouble or killed. I can repeat that last part. D-E-A-D.
1. You have no duty to prevent crime, and injecting yourself into such a situation can not only be legally tenuous, but actually exacerbate the situation.
2. Use of (potentially) lethal force may have additional restrictions in your state, but in every state, lethal force can be used to prevent death or extreme injury. Depending on your state, you may have a duty to retreat if not in immediate threat of one of those two: you may also have a duty to retreat if it's an option, even if you face a lethal threat. Even if not a legal requirement, in most situations, if you can retreat, you should.

Your use of "negotiating" is disturbing to me. You should desire to de-escalate. You're not the hostage negotiator. Leave the negotiating to the professionals, kid.

John

Acera
December 15, 2012, 01:00 PM
Have you talked to the human resources person at your job about what they don't wish their employees to possess while at work? While they may state gun, their intention could be any weapon, less lethal or not. Just because you may circumvent the exact letter of their policy, they may still act negatively toward you for it.

Also, do you mean the brand name product "Taser" or are you referring to the generic term for any electronic shock self defense tool? Reason I ask, is the Taser is usually a one shot device and you were facing two drunk adversaries. Yes, I know that you can use the hand held portion on the second person if they attacked, but defending against two persons at the same time is not what that thing is designed to do. A smaller, easier to acquire, much cheaper stun device might have more benefit. Especially as you retreat from the men if they became threats. Two drunk men against one is still not real good odds for you.

In the end, I think a short walk to the wash rooms to make a call to the local law enforcement agency covering the area may have eased the tension when they showed up, possibly kept a drunk driver off the road, and returned the restaurant to being smoke free.

ilbob
December 15, 2012, 01:14 PM
Why cant people just answer the questions and offer advice on how to deal with the situation instead of playing internet psychologist and randomly insinuate things toward the OP?

So far, he been told:

*Take his meds.

always good advice

*Have a bran muffin

might be good advice

*Not to stare down drunks and mind his own business (of which if he said he didnt look or notice the drunks, he'd be accused of not having situational awarness)

Minding one's own business is always a good idea.

*That he's a dish washer

are you saying he is not? is it somehow an unworthy job in your mind?

Are these THR quality responses?


Whats with the 'pile it on' mentality?

The problem is not with any individual statement the OP made but with the idea that somehow he needs a gun so he can prevent smoking by obnoxious drunks at a diner and because he is not allowed to have a gun that he might get a Taser instead. You can't Taser someone because they are smoking in a diner anymore than you can shoot them.

And then his use of force model is just sad.

Double Naught Spy
December 15, 2012, 02:43 PM
In the end I let them know I wasn't LE. Criminal Justice major yes, not LE.

This was a dumb response. Not saying you are, but the response most definitely was. The drunk asked you a yes or no question and you provided a clarified TMI answer that showed you weren't LE, but in a related field and possible future LE. So the drunk could fight a future cop without the fear of fighting a real cop. If the drunk was looking for a sweet target to fight, you identified yourself plainly as that target.

People don't need to know your business. This is especially true for strangers, drunks and anybody acting aggressively or posturing toward you. Volunteering it did nothing to better serve the situation with the drunk.

I not to toot my own horn but I am well built and for some reason, Look like a Law Enforcement Officer.

You are tooting your own horn. TMI. This information isn't relevant and we didn't need to know it. The drunk likely was either challenging you or feeling you out before he decided how to act.

Don't get too excited by the comment. Lots of people get asked this sort of thing when a person is trying to determine if s/he can get away with some (often illegal) act. He likely would have asked the same question of anybody in your position that obviously wasn't a cop such as a teeny bopper high kid.

Play your cards closer to your vest, stop eyeballing drunks, and stop telling strangers your major.

CoyoteSix
December 15, 2012, 03:32 PM
Alright folks you're right. I'll have to not take a gun with me for a while. Seems I've been looking at things the wrong way. I realize I may end up doing something stupid.

To prevent myself from ending up on the evening news the Glock will stay stowed at home.

Can the mods please lock this thread?

Thanks for your time THR.

floorit76
December 15, 2012, 03:59 PM
Before the lock, Good for you for taking criticism well. That is the first step.

JShirley
December 15, 2012, 04:10 PM
Hey, everybody makes mistakes. Heavens knows, I've made lots of my own.

Kudos for taking the comments well. PM me anytime. :)

Peace,

John

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