understanding and defusing the Washington Post article


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hso
December 15, 2012, 06:11 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/us-mass-shootings-2012/

A very powerful graphic carries a lot of weight in influencing people, but we need to understand that a very few of the shootings are actual "mass shootings" and of those only 5 of them are inexplicable because there's no personal relationship gone awry at the locations of the shootings. Below are the shootings listed and I've added my counterarguments in blue for inapplicable, orange for conflicting and red for inexplicable mass shootings with no rational basis below them to use to debunk their mischaracterizations. While that makes for 5 inexplicable mass shootings due to mental illness, and that is not to be ignored as being horrendous, instead of the 13 the Washington post tries to equate to them we can't loose sight of the fact that this the total number of deaths due to these criminally insane young men is smaller than that statistical fluctuation in determining the 311,000,000 population of the U.S. and that treating ALL of us as criminally insane makes absolutely no sense at all.


Feb. 21: Norcross, Ga.
4 killed, plus shooter
Jeong Soo Paek, 59, a man with a history of violence and who had been asked to leave the family’s spa, returned later in the evening and killed his sisters and their husbands before shooting himself.

This is a mass shooting since 4 or more were shot and killed, but it is a family business in which the murder killed his family members.

Feb. 27: Chardon, Ohio
3 killed, 2 injured
T.J. Lane, 17, a sophomore at another area school, reportedly walked into the Chardon High School cafeteria and fired 10 shots at four students sitting at a table. Lane has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity; his trial is scheduled for January.

This is not a mass murder since only 3 were killed, but it is an inexplicable case of a mentally ill young man that wasn't treated in time and who wasn't removed from society before carrying out this heinous act.

March 8: Pittsburgh
1 killed, plus shooter, 7 injured
A former Duquesne University teaching assistant who had been barred from campus, John Shick, 30, began shooting as he marched through a psychiatric hospital. He was shot dead by police.

I'm not considering this a mass shooting because only 1 was killed and I can't tell if "injured" only include wounded by gunfire, but it fits the pattern of a disturbed person acting through a mental break.

April 2: Oakland
7 killed, 3 injured
Former nursing student One L. Goh, 43, who had dropped out of Oikos University, returned to the school, reportedly pulled an administrator into a nursing classroom, lined up students against the wall and began shooting them. He has pleaded not guilty and awaits trial.

In spite of his age this could be considered an inexplicable case of a mentally ill man that wasn't treated in time and who wasn't removed from society before carrying out this heinous act.

April 6: Tulsa
3 killed, 2 injured
Jake England, 19, and Alvin Watts, 33, are accused of targeting random black men in four locations as they drove around town in an Easter weekend shooting spree. They are awaiting formal arraignment.

Racist hate crime and not a mass shooting since the racists didn't walk into a single facility to carry out their crime.

May 30: Seattle
5 killed, plus shooter, 1 injured
Ian Lee Stawicki, 40, who had a history of mental and behavioral problems, was asked by a barista to leave a coffee shop before he stood up and opened fire. He fled and killed himself as police closed in hours later.

An inexplicable case of a mentally ill man that wasn't treated in time and who wasn't removed from society before carrying out this heinous act.

July 20: Aurora, Colo.
12 killed, 58 injured
Grad student James Eagan Holmes, 24, reportedly entered a mall theater during a midnight showing of “The Dark Knight Rises,” set off gas canisters and opened fire. He awaits trial and has not entered a plea.

An inexplicable case of a mentally ill young man that wasn't treated in time and who wasn't removed from society before carrying out this heinous act.

Aug. 5: Oak Creek, Wisc.
6 killed, plus shooter, 3 injured
White supremacist Wade Michael Page, 40, walked into a Sikh temple and opened fire just before Sunday services. Police wounded Page, who then fatally shot himself.

Racially motivated hate crime mass shooting.

Aug. 13: College Station, Texas
2 killed, plus shooter, 4 injured
Thomas Caffall III, 35, opened fire on police who approached his house to serve an eviction notice about two blocks from the Texas A&M campus. Police shot the gunman and he died in custody.

Not a mass shooting/COLOR]

Sept. 27: Minneapolis
6 killed, plus shooter, 3 injured
As Andrew Engeldinger, 36, was being fired from his job at a sign-making company, he pulled out a gun and shot his two managers, the owner, other employees and a UPS driver as he walked around the building before shooting himself.

[COLOR="blue"]Employee relationship mass shooting

Oct. 21: Brookfield, Wisc.
3 killed, plus shooter, 4 injured
Radcliffe Franklin Haughton, 45, a former Marine whose wife had obtained a restraining order against him three days earlier, entered the suburban Milwaukee spa where she worked and shot her and six other women before killing himself.

Relationship based shooting

Dec. 11: Happy Valley, Ore.
2 killed, plus shooter, 1 injured
Former gyro shop employee Jacob Tyler Roberts, 22, wearing a white hockey mask, opened fire randomly inside a shopping mall. Officials said his gun, reportedly stolen from an acquaintance, jammed during the spree but he killed himself with a final shot.

An inexplicable case of a mentally ill young man that wasn't treated in time and who wasn't removed from society before carrying out this heinous act. It doesn't meet the FBI's definition of a mass murder (4 or more deaths) so it may not actually be a mass shooting. Still, it is viewed as one so strongly I'll count it.

Dec. 14: Newtown, Conn.
27 killed, plus shooter, unknown number injured
According to police, Adam Lanza, 20, entered Sandy Hook Elementary School and shot and killed 26 people, including 20 children, and then himself. Police said that Lanza killed his mother at a secondary crime scene.

An inexplicable case of a mentally ill young man that wasn't treated in time and who wasn't removed from society before carrying out this heinous act.

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Rail Driver
December 15, 2012, 06:19 PM
Part of the problem, I think, is that people try to rationalize an irrational act, and it simply cannot be done.

Gun grabbers are always going to point to instances such as this in order to make their point. The fact that gun control laws disarming the law abiding are a principal contributing factor to these mass shootings is irrelevant to them.

hso
December 15, 2012, 06:22 PM
Rail Driver,

That may be true, but it they are based on an emotional instead of an analytical approach.

We're in a struggle with Antis. They use emotional arguments and only use numbers when they want to support those emotional arguments.

If we use our analysis to make an emotional argument that we've failed the dangerously mentally ill and the public at the same time and by managing them to protect the public without treating 300,000,000 people as if they were criminally insane we can reach those who are easily swayed with emotional arguments to counter the Antis.

Below is what I posted in the comments on the map -

The list shows crimes that aren't characterized by law enforcement as mass shootings and of those that are most of them have family or business relationships. That makes for 5 inexplicable mass shootings due to mental illness, and that is not to be ignored as being horrendous, instead of the 13 the Washington post tries to equate to them.

While each is tragic and catastrophic to the victims, their families and friends and their communities we can't loose sight of the fact that in a nation of three hundred million plus the 5 criminally insane young men constitute a group that infintesimally small. Even is we took all of these murders the group is smaller than the statistical fluctuation in determining the 311,000,000 population of the U.S.

Treating ALL of us as if we were criminally insane makes absolutely no sense at all when the root cause of mass shootings is that these very few criminally insane young men were not managed to keep themselves and the public safe from their mental illness. We need to remove the stigma from mental health treatment, actively seek out and treat these people and when called for, as in the case of Lanza, Loughner, Cho, and others, protect the public from them.

k_dawg
December 15, 2012, 06:57 PM
The thing to always keep in mind: gun grabbers are not about 'solving' crime.

It is about the castration and enslaving lawful citizens.

hso
December 15, 2012, 07:04 PM
Yes, but the rhetoric they use to the people who actually vote is public safety and not domination. The rhetoric must be countered because we're in a social as well as a political struggle.

Eb1
December 15, 2012, 07:08 PM
Quick question. Do you think the gun grabbers think gun owners are mentally ill?

hso
December 15, 2012, 07:22 PM
Not the effective ones.

Caliper_RWVA
December 16, 2012, 09:45 AM
Today I saw this article on Yahoo news:
http://news.yahoo.com/no-rise-mass-killings-impact-huge-185700637.html

Headline is "No rise in mass killings, but their impact is huge". Apparently the worst year for mass killings in the US was... 1929. Of course, the article ends up talking about how the guy joined the Brady campaign, but the numbers given are interesting.

Dreamliner787
December 16, 2012, 10:14 AM
It's extremely hard to change anti-gun peoples mind and most case never; I do believe they are a lot more vocal and loud vs. us folks who are for pro-gun.

hso
December 16, 2012, 10:44 AM
We're NOT trying to change the minds of Antis, that ain't happening, and continuing to bring it up is a red herring argument distracting us from what we're trying to accomplish.

We're trying to win the hearts and minds of the vast majority of the population who are shocked and reeling mentally after these catastrophic events and who are being propagandized by Antis. If we don't offer easily recognizable opportunities for people to understand the facts and to feel more secure in that knowledge we hand the argument to the Antis on a platter.

sothoth
December 17, 2012, 12:43 AM
There are new cries for assault weapon bans, which I find disturbing. This is an issue where the knee jerk antis now have fodder and support from many middle of the road folks. While I share the reaction that everyone had to the mass killings, which was one of great horror and extreme sadness, I worry that this will propel us closer to unreasonable gun control.

The question for me is how do you defend gun rights in the heat of the moment, when people are processing the tragedy and conjure images of the events in their minds or by seeing them on the news, without seeming like you're defending the horrible act or the rights of the madman who carried out the acts?

Arguing that we have gun rights to prevent an oppressive government doesn't have much sway. While its important to me personally, to most people the idea of our government oppressing us and a revolt taking place by armed citizens seems like an absurd, paranoid fantasy.

If you ask me, we need to focus the attention of the anti gun crowd onto the right things. For one, maybe push to keep guns out of the hands of people with serious mental health problems, not the law abiding ones. Second, write your congressmen/women to and tell them not to react in a knee jerk fashion. Remind them that the reaction of government when something horrible happens is to restrict the rights of law abiding citizens, which is wrong. This goes for patriot act warrantless searches after 911 as well as taking away gun rights after this. Tell them that if they take your gun rights away they just empower those who don't obey the law. Remind them of the DC violent crime rate post gun bans and ask them if they want the same thing in their state to happen on their watch.

However horrible this is, it's also more likely that a child will be struck by lightning about four times than they are to be shot by an assault weapon.

That number is based upon the lightning strike statistics here:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/probability.html
Versus the number of rifle deaths per year (350) in 2010 versus the population (300 million). The number of rifle deaths includes all categories of rifle and all causes of death (hunting accidents, suicides, etc) so it's easily a 1:1million chance or much less.

hso
December 17, 2012, 12:48 AM
That's the sort of thing we need to drive home.
The deaths are a tragedy and are catastrophic to the families and communities, BUT these mass murders are so rare across this country that the risk is infinitesimally small. Making laws in haste based on events rarer than a lightning strike is poor decision making and very poor government.

sothoth
December 17, 2012, 02:45 AM
Actually just to clarify, the data is here:
http://www.nsc.org/Documents/Injury_Facts/Injury_Facts_2011_w.pdf

If you look at homicides by age group (age of the victim) for kids 0-14 by firearms (all classes) it's a pretty low number.

Just wanted to include a real NSC link even tho it's not for the same year I quoted above.

R.W.Dale
December 17, 2012, 03:00 AM
Have you guys really convinced yourselves that in a Senate meeting or congressional hearing with parents of the slain children present that the argument you're putting fourth of "the problem isn't that bad" or "not very many school kids are actually murdered" will gain you a shred of credence? It would take an absolutely soulless individual to look these people in the eye and insult their loss like that. And this is the plan to win "hearts and minds"?

Are y'all that out of touch with the "normal" largely non gun population that will be screaming for action any action?

I swear the more naive posts I read on the activism part of this situation from our side the more depressed I get for the prospects for a favorable future outcome.


If all we have to offer are lighting strike probabilities and murder rated MY GOD we're gonna get hosed.



posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

sothoth
December 17, 2012, 03:08 AM
R.W., what do you suggest?

Actually my suggestion wasn't quite what you stated. I would pressure legislators with the fact that its rare. I'd push citizens with the argument about preventing psychos from getting guns with a mental fitness test rather than ban certain classes of weapons.

R.W.Dale
December 17, 2012, 03:25 AM
R.W., what do you suggest?

Actually my suggestion wasn't quite what you stated. I would pressure legislators with the fact that its rare. I'd push citizens with the argument about preventing psychos from getting guns with a mental fitness test rather than ban certain classes of weapons.

At this point on a Monday morning at 2:20 am I honestly don't know. Much will depend on the shape the first thrust from the anti's take. But I doubt we're gonna have to wait long to find out.

Right now details on the crime are sketchy we don't really know if the killer was mentally I'll, we're not sure what guns were used and we're still unconfirmed on the status of the firearms ownership to the mother.

But I do know one thing, saying "its really not THAT big a problem" will loose us far far more in this than it will gain. Its an tired, insulting, naive and vapid argument that is utterly shredded the first time someone asks "how many kids getting murdered at school are too many for you"




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

mag41uk
December 17, 2012, 03:42 AM
As a Brit who lost his handguns in 1997 I can see you guys having a real hard time over this.
When you have been called a child killer in public as you are gun owner,yet you have children of your own,thats hard to deal with.
And it will probably permeate into Europe.
You cannot defend against the emotional aspect of these occurrences.
Spouting statistics wont help your cause.
I predict a massive overhaul of your gun laws and I bet most of you will,with a heavy heart,agree with most of them.
These are,at the end of the day,your friends and families lives.
As shooters we are always a small minority of the population so are always at the bottom of the slippery slope.
And I have to say,apathy from gun owners will be another reason for your "loss" of "rights".
Have a look at the members here and how many have viewed or taken part in these posts.
Sorry if this sounds harsh but I have been there and have seen it happen in in other countries around europe.
In equal parts I feel sorrow for all the families involved for their losses and all the gun owners who are upstanding citizens without blame.
Tony

sothoth
December 17, 2012, 10:17 AM
Stating and restating the problem does even less to help than spouting statistics. Make some suggestions.

sothoth
December 17, 2012, 10:36 AM
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

Gun rights aren't the problem. Psychos are the problem.

R.W.Dale
December 17, 2012, 10:41 AM
Stating and restating the problem does even less to help than spouting statistics. Make some suggestions.

Now you begin to understand the hand we're dealt. As a gun community WE have no suggestions beyond acting like a bunch of spoiled Brats who don't want to leave the fun park we've been attending.

Acting like its not our problem will just add fuel to the fire for the folks who are going to make a point of making it our problem.

Here's what I suggest, do some soul searching and ponder what aspects of the shooting sports are most important to you? Are you willing to give up all those 22shooting days with your kids/grandkids simply because you're too stubborn and idealistic to give up 30 round p-mags you did just fine without a few years back?

Stop denying and think about how that aspects of the hobby we all enjoy can and have been perverted for evil ends. Then perhaps you can have a shred of understanding for the guilt all the non gun community will think we should feel.

Then and only then will you be able to formulate a counter argument that's got a chance of not being dismissed as a ranting of a crazy gun guy.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

sothoth
December 17, 2012, 10:54 AM
I disagree.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-mental-illness-conversation_n_2311009.html

There is nothing spoiled about saying "take care of the real problem, but don't take away my rights." Gun ownership isn't the problem.

R.W.Dale
December 17, 2012, 10:59 AM
I disagree.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-mental-illness-conversation_n_2311009.html

There is nothing spoiled about saying "take care of the real problem, but don't take away my rights." Gun ownership isn't the problem.

That's called denial. As outlined by our British colleague above.

Everyone else will say the following "yes we need to strengthen our mental health system." Right before they say "but why are assault rifles seemingly so easy for these guys to get ahold of?"

That's the plan? Pointing at the mental health system and yelling. "LOOK OVER THERE" while we bolt for the door?




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

sothoth
December 17, 2012, 11:15 AM
How does making guns harder to get, or for that matter banning a "class" of firearm, help? You think a Bushmaster is uniquely suited to killing people? It's bullets are more deadly than a 9mm semi-auto handgun? Or the bullets of a 7-shot revolver?

You say we should be prepared to think about what we're willing to give up, as if anyone cares what you want to give up. They will take what they want and don't give a crap if its what you're willing to part with or not. As if volunteering to give something up is appeasement enough to make the issues go away. Well, that's giving up. It's just as much denial on your part, maybe more. At least pointing to mental health issues is pointing to a root cause.

Actually I think my suggestion of forcing someone to prove mental fitness is a pretty good idea. Works in Japan.

And just to clarify, The English didn't have a constitutionally protected right to bear arms. We do in the states. So it's not the same thing.

hso
December 17, 2012, 02:44 PM
If you're thinking about imposing new restrictions on people at least try to list ones that make some sense and reinforce good behavior instead of feeding into myths and outright lies and reinforcing those that perpetrate them.

Queen_of_Thunder
December 17, 2012, 03:51 PM
If you want to know what is really disgusting its the 16,000-18,000 depending on whose numbers you use that DIE EVERY SINGLE DAY of starvation. STARVATION! Why no outcry over this tragedy. Why no demands for action from the citizens of a country that uses %40 of its corn crop as a fuel additive. Only goes to show that the "anti's" really don't care about children as there only concern is their own political agenda.

Lucifer_Sam
December 17, 2012, 04:07 PM
I've always felt that one of the main causes of this was that the killers get "glorified"-- the media just harps on and on about them. Got to about 1:48.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4&feature=youtu.be&t=1m30s

If you really want a cause, look there. And the most repulsive aspect is that they aren't doing it for some cause, they do it for profit. At least Antis have something they believe in, even if it is deluded.

Anyway, heres my thoughts put in brief, you'll have to fill in the blanks--

Media glorification is a main cause, killers name never being released would cut back significantly--his dying anonymously. We've had guns for decades but the school attack has increased with the 24 news cycle.

Less ability to institutionalize the mentally ill, and a AWB wont stop them.

AWB will not affect anything, there was one in place when Columbine happened, so some type of armed guards are needed. This attack could have been done with pretty much any weapon, even one allowed under a AWB

Worst school killing was the Bath School Diaster in the 20s where the attacker killed his wife, bombed his targets committing suicide in the last attack. Gee, that sounds familiar...

Would be penalizing millions and millions of law abiding citizens for the actions of one loony

And the statical anomaly is completely correct

There are a couple others I think, but they don't come to mind right now.

Kynoch
December 18, 2012, 03:33 AM
As a Brit who lost his handguns in 1997 I can see you guys having a real hard time over this.
When you have been called a child killer in public as you are gun owner,yet you have children of your own,thats hard to deal with.
And it will probably permeate into Europe.
You cannot defend against the emotional aspect of these occurrences.
Spouting statistics wont help your cause.
I predict a massive overhaul of your gun laws and I bet most of you will,with a heavy heart,agree with most of them.
These are,at the end of the day,your friends and families lives.
As shooters we are always a small minority of the population so are always at the bottom of the slippery slope.
And I have to say,apathy from gun owners will be another reason for your "loss" of "rights".
Have a look at the members here and how many have viewed or taken part in these posts.
Sorry if this sounds harsh but I have been there and have seen it happen in in other countries around europe.
In equal parts I feel sorrow for all the families involved for their losses and all the gun owners who are upstanding citizens without blame.
Tony

What sort of "overhaul?" Do you think existing US gun-control laws will be scrapped? Will the NFA become history?

I don't think your comments are harsh. I think they're apathetic. I think if new gun controls laws were enacted in the USA, it would take a bit of the shame away that you feel living in the UK.

waidmann
December 18, 2012, 09:32 PM
Along with the 2nd Am. our founders re-invented parlimentary government (thank God). If we take hit I expect it in the area of magazine capacity. The mag makes an ASW. Even NPR (National Public Radio) has this figured out. They also know the "Clinton Era Ban" was largely a joke, flawed in not banning all large capacity mags, existing and future. Flawed in being immersed in trivial nitwit concerns over bayonet lugs, flash suppressors and pistols grips. Most of my listening these days is directed to the other side. I promise they are smarter.

To the subject (not the citizens): If we had two years with Nancy Pelosi as a Prime Minister, you would be correct.

barnbwt
December 18, 2012, 10:29 PM
Part of the problem, I think, is that people try to rationalize an irrational act, and it simply cannot be done.

Natural instinct of a logical mind, is to apply logic--even where there is none. People literally drive themselves insane this way if they cannot break the loop.

My suggestion as the contribution to be offered by Gunowners to Americans, in an effort to not only allay their present fears, but also address a fundamental vulnerability of schools, is to promote concealed carry or ready access to firearms by teachers/staff in public schoolbuildings.

We already have invested great trust in teachers to look after our children during the day, and though most wouldn't say it, they would expect their teachers to give their lives defending their students, just as the parents themselves would. Teachers are trained and drilled to keep their students safe in an emergency. It is only right to give educators the means to perform their protective duty in an effective capacity.

This is a simple, fast, low cost, and likely effective solution to deter and mitigate any future school attack. The idea has a strong emotional appeal to those desperately seeking a responsible, powerful guardian to keep their kids safe while they are away from their children.

Gunowners are great at logical arguements, founded in that most logical document The United States Constitution. But we lack in emotional pleas and many people's though process is based around "right" being that which they feel the most strongly positive about, and "wrong" that which is anathema. We must understand and accept this in our arguments. The anti's paint us as soulless, uncaring jerks, and yet we throw facts back at them, reinforcing the stereotype.

We are passionate about this. We know we are right. We need to marry these two paradigms into arguments to convince both level-headed individuals, as well as those governed by their passions. Especially in times like this when that latter are much, much louder than reason.

TCB

hso
December 18, 2012, 10:45 PM
This is not a discussion forum.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=270671

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