Wis. lawmaker wants teachers to carry guns


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rodinal220
December 16, 2012, 08:37 AM
"Rep. Frank Lasee, a Republican, said Wednesday that, while his idea may not be politically correct, it has worked effectively in other countries."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15142930/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/wis-lawmaker-wants-teachers-carry-guns/#.UM2Kogrrm4o.email

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Wes B
December 16, 2012, 09:54 AM
It seems to be directed at K-12. I haven't looked any farther into it than reading the article in the link. What about Wisconsin Universities?

NavyLCDR
December 16, 2012, 02:13 PM
Someone needs to educate Rep. Lasee on Federal law, though. From the article, "He also acknowledged he would have to work around a federal law that bans guns on school grounds." There would be nothing to work around if the teachers possessed Wisconsin concealed weapons permits (or whatever they are called in Wisconsin).

Romeo 33 Delta
December 16, 2012, 02:35 PM
Can State law trump Federal law in the case of "gun free school zones"? These are NOT Federal schools, are they! Just specuating that if the Legislature crafted a law that would ALLOW teachers or others to be armed while "at work" and this were signed into law by theGovernor, would this be a work-around?

I wouldn't want it to be a law that they be armed, but the option should clearly be there.

Again, a trained and armed teacher is the best, final defense against this most recent mass murder.

smalls
December 16, 2012, 02:48 PM
ALLOW teachers or others to be armed while "at work" and this were signed into law by theGovernor, would this be a work-around?

There is no "work around". If they have a permit to carry from their state, then they are exempt from the federal law.

If not, they're not allowed to carry.

jerinco
December 16, 2012, 02:54 PM
states have the right to govern themselves, this is along the lines of CO legalizing marijuana. its a tenth ammendment right issue. so i THINK this could fall under the same type of legal battle. i dont support the marijuana bill but am very interested to see if the state takes on the fed gov on the tenth ammendment issue and stop the over reaching of the feds.

as a resident of MN in our ccw class a state trooper told us we could not carry on school grounds or school activities off school grounds.

smalls
December 16, 2012, 03:24 PM
States may govern themselves, but you must still follow federal law.

Look at all the dispensaries that gave been raided by the DEA in the past. Locally it was legal to sell pot, but the Feds came and grabbed 'em cause they violated federal law.

as a resident of MN in our ccw class a state trooper told us we could not carry on school grounds or school activities off school grounds.

That's a matter of state law, not federal.

NavyLCDR
December 16, 2012, 03:51 PM
For everyone's edification, this is the Federal school zone law contained in 18 USC 922 (q):

18 USC § 922 - Unlawful acts
(q)
(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

There is no "work around" required. All this is required is that the teachers possess state issued firearms licenses.

In Washington state, every time I pick up or drop off my daughter ON SCHOOL PREMISES, I do so legally openly carrying my firearm in a holster on my belt because my Concealed Pistol License exempts me from the school zone prohibitions contained in both Federal and Washington state laws.

jakeraney87
December 17, 2012, 04:53 PM
I for one support the idea of staff having firearms ready to defend. What if and this is a big what if but... lets say we put 100 random people in a room and tell them nothing just give them and empty pistol. but not tell them its empty. Then send in a person with blanks and begin to fire. Watch how many of those people reach for the firearm. Now put Innocent people in the way of that and the numbers would grow by ten fold I would say. Even anti gun would reach to defend.

Firearms locked away in locations known to the staff but not students. Shot guns with bean bag rounds. That will stop the threat and not allow the subject not to commit suicide and be punished for what they have done. The idea of being caught and punished just might offset the idea of doing anything.

Please reply what if right here we could come up with an idea that could be used in real life.

plainsbilly
December 17, 2012, 09:14 PM
I very seldom post but this thread really caught my eye. Am I the only one that has thought of less than lethal such as taser for teachers or scool officials? If I remember correctly isnt the range almost 45 ft simple to teach very reliable and easy to secure seems to me a kick taser and a pepper fogger would be cheap child environment friendlier alternatives to pushing ccw on teachers.

NavyLCDR
December 17, 2012, 10:10 PM
I very seldom post but this thread really caught my eye. Am I the only one that has thought of less than lethal such as taser for teachers or scool officials? If I remember correctly isnt the range almost 45 ft simple to teach very reliable and easy to secure seems to me a kick taser and a pepper fogger would be cheap child environment friendlier alternatives to pushing ccw on teachers.
Would you choose to defend yourself, your child, or your wife from a person shooting a gun at them with pepper spray or a taser? Nobody is talking about pushing CCW on teachers, we are talking about ALLOWING them to carry, with extra training provided to them.

How about we install anesthetic gas that harmless puts everyone to sleep in school ventilation systems so when there is an active shooter someone hits a button and the gas disperses and puts everyone to sleep so the police can then enter with gas masks and remove the criminal before anyone wakes up?

bobmcd
December 17, 2012, 10:21 PM
Gas does not work like that. (It works like that in Hollywood, but a lot of weapon systems are that way.) In real life, a dosage that is enough to knock out a healthy, physically fit adult male may well kill small children, especially if they have any allergies, etc.

hariph creek
December 17, 2012, 10:24 PM
Utah and Oregon already do it.

OptimusPrime
December 17, 2012, 11:54 PM
First, I think Navy was being sarcastic with the gas idea. You have to respond in kind to an attack, not with a Hollywood gimmick.
Secondly, Jake, I respectfully disagree with your points on two grounds: 1-guns that are locked up are not the best course of defense. The point of CCW is to be armed and ready on your person. In this recent tragedy, where the principal bravely did the only thing she could do and rush the attacker, being armed would have been all the difference. As it was, the attacker only needed a few minutes to complete his cowardice before the sirens prompted him to end it (according to the latest reports). Retrieving some firearms locked away would have taken those same minutes, and frankly every adult was doing their best to hide and protect the children. My second point of disagreement is beanbags. Refer to my first sentence; you don't respond to lethal force with non-lethal force and expect to win.
As Navy said, the hope is that we ALLOW the staff who are already qualified to have a chance at stopping the threat immediately.

NavyLCDR
December 18, 2012, 12:48 AM
First, I think Navy was being sarcastic with the gas idea.

Yes, I was. I should have used the [SARCASM] tags.

Phatty
December 18, 2012, 11:22 AM
I saw an interview a few days ago of the St. Louis County Sheriff, who was advocating for teachers or other school officials to carry guns. He mentioned how simply locking the doors is not effective, because the CT shooter simply shot his way in.

artjs
December 18, 2012, 01:31 PM
As Lassee is from Wisconsin, he is partially correct.

Even state CCW law still DOES NOT allow for carry on school property. As we teach in our classes (at least mine), with a CCW permit, you no longer have to keep 1,000' away from the school zone, you can walk on the sidewalk in front of the school (actually is city/village/town land).... BUT !!!! you cannot walk on the grass on the inside of the sidewalk.........that is still illegal and drops back into the Federal Statues............

Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.

Rob G
December 18, 2012, 02:49 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.

I believe post #8 does in fact correct you on that. A holder of a state issued CCW is allowed to carry on school property.

As for this idea, Harrold ISD in northern TX has had armed teachers in the classrooms for roughly four years now. Amazingly enough not one gun has pulled itself out of a holster and shot a student. I'm all for it myself.

artjs
December 18, 2012, 04:21 PM
While I will agree with the new Texas School District allowing CCW on school property, Wisconsin still does not allow it.....at this time.

Remember, we're only just over 1 year old (11/1/11 law was started) with CCW.

From the textbook:
School Property
It is a felony to carry a firearm in a school or on the grounds of a school unless
one of the following exceptions applies.
• For use in a program approved by a school in the school zone. (e.g. Hunter's Education)
• In accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school
zone and the individual or an employer of the individual.
• Carry by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.
• The firearm is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing
school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private
lands open to hunting, if the entry on the school premises is authorized by
school authorities.
• The firearm is not loaded and is either encased or is in a locked firearms
rack on a motor vehicle.
• Carry by a state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official
capacity.
• Carry by a person legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has
decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest.

Within 1,000’ of School Grounds <-- This is the portion that allows us to carry on the sidewalk in front of the school
It is against the law to carry a firearm within 1,000 feet of school grounds unless:
• one of the “school property” exceptions shown above applies; or
• you are on private property that is not part of school grounds; or
• you have a concealed carry license.

Rob G
December 18, 2012, 04:38 PM
I don't know Wisconsin law but as you posted it does appear as though WI law prevents carry on the property. My main comment though is that that's a state restriction, not federal.

I would also look at these two points:

• For use in a program approved by a school in the school zone. (e.g. Hunter's Education)
• In accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual.


I'm no legal expert but that seems vague enough that a good lawyer could make a case for schools allowing their teachers to CC on school grounds. Especially if their contract specifically provided for it.

Riceman98
December 18, 2012, 05:06 PM
Would you choose to defend yourself, your child, or your wife from a person shooting a gun at them with pepper spray or a taser?

I would rather have this than what teachers have currently (nothing). Just as our right to bear arms has been slowly taken away we need to slowly take it back. This would be the first step. It would be much easier to get "less than lethal" weapons in schools than lethal weapons.

Fryerpower
December 18, 2012, 05:44 PM
Is it just me or is this an old story from 2006?
It says:
updated 10/5/2006 1:51:10 PM ET
At the top.

Jim

wap41
December 18, 2012, 09:49 PM
Properly trained school employees that had conceal and carry permits would be about the same as air marshals on airplanes.Since they have been on planes how many hijacks have we had?

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