[wardog]

Why is it that no one has successfully brought back this pistol? (CZ, are you listening? Sphinx?)

IIRC, a company called "Peregrine Industries" was going to bring it back, then didn't.

Has anyone else tried? (Yeah, I know, EAA makes a 10mm)

Is/was there anything wrong with the basic design?

If it were made by a quality manufacturer would you buy one? How much would you be willing to pay?

I would think that there would be enough interest in the 10mm cartridge and this pistol's design to make it a good seller.

Your thoughts?

[garrettwc]

wardog, I am with you on this one.

The problems with the Brens were mainly, spare parts availability, no magazines, and poor management of the companies involved.

Would I buy one if a good company made it? OH YEAH! I would camp out in front of the nearest gun store to get one when they hit the stores.

There has been a ressurgence of popularity for the 10MM of late and I think the guns would sell well. Price? I'm guessing it would retail in the $700 range, but if it was done right I would go higher.

If you want to know more, go here:

Bren Ten Forum (http://pub34.ezboard.com/bnordicg3kscommunity)

[jeff-10]

isnt the EAA Witness in 10 somewhat close to the Bren Ten?

[garrettwc]

isnt the EAA Witness in 10 somewhat close to the Bren Ten?

They are both based on the CZ75 design so there are some basic similarities in that regard. That's where the closeness ends.

It's sort of like the difference between a VW bug and a Porsche 911. They are both rear engine German cars, but the performance and handling are very different.

[Jeff OTMG]

Actually it almost happened a few years ago. Fernando Cohello (sp?) bought the rights and tooling to the Bren and intended on resurrecting it. Unfortunately there were too many problems to overcome. You can check out www.shotshowreports.com first day of the 2001 show for most of the info.

[stans]

Buy a Witness, if you shoot it to death, you won't cry nearly as much over a $350 gun as you will over a $1500 gun. The biggest problem with the Bren was the lack of magazines, spare parts were/are a problem.

[Bruce H]

But a Witness, throw a 20lb. spring in and let it rip. Mine is like a Timex so far.

[Sean Smith]

Having owned the Witness and shot the Bren Ten a fair amount, they aren't anywhere near comparable. The Witness is no substitute in my opinion.

[rbernie]

Having owned the Witness and shot the Bren Ten a fair amount, they aren't anywhere near comparable. OK, now you've gotten me curious. My next pistol is gonna be a 10mm, and I'm thinking that I'd prefer a DA/SA design over a SA-only (1911-style). The Witness was going to be my first choice.

Is there any reason that I should want to NOT get a Witness in 10mm? I realize that the comments above were made in comparison between the Bren and the Witness, but is there anything inherently WRONG with the Witness in general?

[gunfan]

I like my Witness, (in 10mm Auto, of course.) I haven't experienced the Bren Ten, and would likely have enjoyed it very much. I did change the 16 pound spring out for one of the 18 pound persuasion. It seems to shoot quite well. The accuracy seems "combat acceptable" and the double action option is a nice tactical option.

Judge for yourself.

Scott

[NordicG3K]

Actually it almost happened a few years ago. Fernando Cohello (sp?) bought the rights and tooling to the Bren and intended on resurrecting it. Unfortunately there were too many problems to overcome. You can check out www.shotshowreports.com first day of the 2001 show for most of the info.

Actually nothing ever got past the initial "putting out the feelers" stage and all the rights are still owned by Richard Voit who started up Peregrine Industries.

Right now the Witness 10mm is the closest thing available, but as others have mentioned it is far from the real thing. While dimensions are similar, to me the Bren feels like a much bigger gun. Also, it seems to handle recoil better and just feels more comfortable in your hand (of course this is highly subjective). While the lack of magazines got a lot of press at the time it really wasn't the reason Dornaus & Dixon went under. Basically the company was underfunded and in their rush to get guns out the door they had a lot of quality control issues which resulted in time and money being spent on fixing guns that had already been paid for rather than on filling outstanding orders. There were a lot of other issues involved as well, but this was the big one.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/73942/NTVRO-bren-witness_compare.jpg

[Sean Smith]

The Witness 10mm is not a bad gun by any stretch, but the Bren Tens I've shot were all-around nicer.

[tex_n_cal]

I was handling a new Smith 945-1 yesterday, and I kept thinking to myself, "boy this big honking pistol would make a nice 10mm".

[nvrquit]

Sean, just another thing to be envious of you for... having actaully had the pleasure of shooting a Bren. I've only ever handled one(actually three, but who's counting).

On the topic of the Tanfoglio Witness, what is generally referred to on the boards are the basic Tan Witness models. They are not as nicely fitted/finished as other pistols, then again they generally don't cost as much either. The real bummer is that the Tan Witness is imported and serviced by EAA. To this point I can speak directly and with some depth. I'd direct you to a few previous posts on other forums, but they are no longer available.

Shooters.com is a dead board and CZForum.com have deleted the older posts. The only posts that survive are those over on the old TFL. Try these if you wish:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=74160&highlight=EAA

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=78535&highlight=EAA


If you don't mind having to possibly tinker with you're newly purchased pistol, that really should have worked from the box, then the Tan Witness may be okay. If you don't mind having to possibly deal with, as have a number of Tan owners, unfriendly customer service, then the Tan Witness may be for you.

In it's favor, the Tan Witness does offer a number of possible options that other makes just don't have readily available. The unfortunate part with a Tan Witness is it's a crap shoot.... you roll the dice and hope you don't shoot snake-eyes, cause then you have to deal with EAA:uhoh:

[caz223]

I gotta agree with nvrquit, I've had problems with EAA's customer service.
I won't get into it now, it's too frustrating to talk about at this time.
If you get a good one, they're fine.
If you get a bad one, well, you're kinda on your own.

[gunfan]

and the Hillbilllies want to be called "sons of the soil." Lets face it... it isn't going to happen!

Scott :rolleyes:

[Marcus]

I`ve always wanted a Bren X too. I bought my Wonder finished Witness for exactly that reason,it was the closest thing I could get. Well,it was a decent gun. It felt good in the hand,it was accurate but it wasn`t 100% reliable with hot loads until I tweaked it for a year or so. At the end of the day it wasn`t a Bren and I decided I wanted a better quality 10mm. I traded it on a S&W 1006 and haven`t looked back. The Smith doesn`t feel near as good but it shoots great,works 100% and exibits much better build quality. I doubt the Bren will ever come back but a CZ-97,HK USP or Sig220ST in 10mm would be a great substitute IMO. Marcus

[wardog]

I've heard too much negative about the Witness. Not just from here, but a good buddy of mine who owns tons of guns had one. He loved the way it felt but had problems with it and suffered through some bad customer service.

It just seems to me that there are a ton of designs that come and go in a flash. Ones that come to mind are: Charles Daly polymer pistol, Beretta 9000, FN double action HP, Felk, tons of 1911's, various Taurus models, and many more forgettable models. I would just think that someone would try to revive a design with a considerable cult following instead of completely designing and building a new gun. I would think that the tooling would already be pretty close for a company like CZ, Shinx and even Tanfoglio.

[agtman]

Yeah, I'd like to see someone take up the Bren Ten (BT) design as well.

It almost happened with Voit's Peregrine Falcon (PF) in the early 90s. More people should really check out the history of this gun. Go to Nordic's BT site, click on the "Resurrection of the BT" link, and read the article by Nigel Milner.

Voit had the right ideas. Although the PF's external features and ergonomics looked almost identical to the BT, Voit's design engineers beefed-up internal things that were problematic on the BT and got rid of the goofier design quirks, like the cross-bolt safety. With police contracts in mind, a low-profile decocking lever was added, but the PF still retained the BT's popular cocked-&-locked capability. In testing, the proto-type PF models were enduring several thousands of rds of shooting, the goal being to break something in order to identify "iffy" parts in preproduction.

A great marketing strategy was Voit's plan to offer the BT in .40S&W, 45acp and 10mm AUTO. In fact, the frame for all 3 chamberings was identical externally, and the 40 and 10mm PF guns used the same mag, which ran without a hitch. Similarly, Glock 20 users know this "dual" .40/10mm use works with their stock 10mm mags. Many have .40S&W "drop-in" aftermarket barrels for their G20s and fire .40S&W cartridges problem-free. PF mags would have been manufactured domestically, so, unlike some BT owners, PF buyers weren't in danger of getting their guns sans mags. :rolleyes:

All in all, the PF had a lot going for it design-wise. In my view, it would have been a better "CZ-style" 10mm gun than the BT, though clearly beholding to it but without the flaws. Certainly the PF would have seen much, much better QC than Tanfoglio's Witness.

What Voit ran into wasn't a gun problem, but a financing problem. Like Dornaus & Dixon before him, Voit was looking to leverage all or most of the production costs by way of cash flow from Police Dept contracts for duty guns. But it seems the banks weren't buying into his optimism for landing these deals. So no loans and the PF went nowhere fast.

Like others mentioned, it'd be nice to see CZ, Kahr, or maybe Ruger or S&W take a risk and develop the BT-derivative PF in the direction Voit had envisioned, i.e, a much improved but externally identical BT, available in multiple calibers. :)

:cool:

[joegerardi]

One thing about the Bren is its accuracy. I've been able to hit targets out to 100 yards with it- something I cannot do with any other pistol I own. It shoots incredibly flat, and just feels right in my hands.

Yes, mine is a shooter. I've got about 1200 rounds through it, and the only thing I had to fix was a worn out mag release. I frequently carry mine (in the required Miami Classic shoulder rig) with Black Talons. That way, even my cartridges are black and silver. (Accessorizing is everything these days!) :)

I would love to see someone pick up its design. It would be easy now, as I'm sure all the copyrights have expired. It just requires someone to do it, but it might hit roadblocks because of its reputation. Let's face it: If Lorcin came out with a fabulous pistol, how many of us would rush out to buy one?

..Joe

[agtman]

Actually, joegerardi brings up a good point.

I've handled and shot a couple of BTs and three things were IMMEDIATELY apparent about these guns (apart from the high performance 10mm cartridge):

* they were VERY accurate;

* none of them jammed; and

* the CZ-derivative ergonomics made the 10mm's "felt-recoil" a nonissue.

Regardless of other issues, those are three virtues that would be hard to criticize in any modern autoloader.

:cool: