[xbolt12]

I just wanted to pass this along for something to consider if you are having misfires with your reloads. I am loading 25.06 remington brass, CCI200 primers and 117 grain Sierra Game King bullets.
Only a very low percentage of the loads actually fired. My first thought was primer seating issues but everything I read steered my away from that. The problem turned out to be the bullets were seated out a smidge too far. I had partially neck sized an empty case then stuck a bullet in the mouth and chambered it, then measure the COAL with calipers to determine COAL for this bullet in this gun. I loaded 4 groups of 3 at 1/2 grain intervals looking for the best group.
When chambering these loads, the bolt locked without any tighteness, but when the firing pin struck the primer, the cartridges were acutally moving forward on the bullet as it was already touching the lands. Factory rounds fired fine. Primed brass with no bullet fired fine. I finally seated the bullets .01 deeper and they all fired fine with no problem. I hope this helps someone else somewhere down the road. Happy Loading!

[243winxb]

What rifle/action are you shooting? Browning XBolt?

[243winxb]

The problem turned out to be the bullets were seated out a smidge too far.The extractor needs to stop the forward movement of the loaded round sooner. As the firing pin pushes the bullet deeper into the case, this will lower/slow the velocity/striking force of the pin. Have the extractor fit checked. If you can measure the rim thickness & compare the distance from the bolt face to the extractor, where the rim will make contact, you may find the distance is excessive.

[rcmodel]

I disagree.

The extractor in a 25-06 bolt-action of any brand should have nothing at all to do with preventing the case from moving away from the firing pin.

Headspace in a 25-06 is controlled entirely by the case shoulder.

Unless you are pushing the shoulder too far back when sizing, and creating artificial excess headspace?
The case can't move foreword away from the firing pin.

You best do some sizing die adjusting ASAP if that was actually your mis-fire problem.

rc

[sage5907]

If you really want some technical help you may want to buy an RCBS Precision Micrometer to help you with case chamber length. You can buy one on eBay for about $71. The same micrometer that works for a 25-06 will also check the case chamber length for a 270 Winchester and a 30-06. The micrometer determines the chamber length of a fired case so you can set your resizing die accordingly. I like to size my cases to the SAAMI "0" setting on the guage which is about .003 longer than a new case and about .002 shorter than a normal chamber. Shooter

[GLOOB]

I agree with RC. I load some of my rifle rounds just into the lands, as do many other reloaders. This shouldn't cause light strikes. As much excess headspace as there should be, you could put an elastic cushion (a very thin one would be all that should fit) in front of the shoulder, and the primer should still light off. In fact, I've heard of people fireforming 303 Brit to large chambered milsurp guns by putting an O-ring on the case to hold it against the breechface in order to minimize case web stretch.

If this were the cause for your light strikes, you might wanna make sure your rifle fires when the muzzle is pointed up. With an empty case, preferably!

[243winxb]

Its also possible for the firing pin strike to move the shoulder back .006" You never know it unless you have a misfire. Added link- http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=369231

[murf]

the op makes no sense whatsoever. i smell a troll.

murf

[xbolt12]

Well it's back to the drawing board. All factory ammo still fires just fine as does primed cases. Some of my deeper seated bullets didn't fire today. Another hint. Easing the cartridge into the chamber and locking the bolt resulted in 3 of 4 misfires today.
I chambered them again with a little extra force on the bolt and they fired.

[xbolt12]

Ruger 77

[rcmodel]

Back the sizing die off until you are only neck-sizing or just barely pushing the shoulder back.

Like I said in post #4, you are creating artificial excess headspace by over-sizing them.

If the shoulder is not pushed back too far during sizing, there is no place for the case to go to get out of the way when the firing pin hits it!!!

rc

[Walkalong]

I also agree with rcmodel. Over sizing, or pushing the shoulder back to much, creating artificially induced headspace, is almost surely the problem.

[kingmt]

It's the bolt fully closing? Maybe it isn't a misfire but tyre hammer blocked.

[evan price]

RCModel and Walkalong are spot on here. If the case is properly sized for your chamber headspace the case will be locked in place in the chamber, it can't move forward when the firing pin pushes on the primer. You have a die setup problem and are pushing back the shoulder too far!
By seating the bullet longer you are jamming the bullet in the leade and that is artificially holding the case back against the bolt face.

As far as a firing pin strike pushing the shoulder back .006"- If your firing pin protrusion is such that .006" will be the difference between firing or not you have a gun problem. Plus I don't recall ever seeing a primer that was stronger than the case shoulder.

[sage5907]

If the cases are the proper length for the headspace of the rifle and the powder charges still don't fire there are two more things you should consider. You can replace the firing pin spring with a new spring or you can change to magnum primers.

[243winxb]

Shoulder not needed to fire a primer. :eek: Savage Axis 223- TEST- Cut case off behind the shoulder. Install new primer in fired case. Load into rifle using a cleaning rod to keep case head in bolt face & under the extractor. REMOVE CLEANING ROD BEFORE FIRING. :D Did this 2 times. Both primers fired when the trigger was pulled. :uhoh: 1 case ejected normal, the other did not. Some firearms will need the shoulder, some dont. ;) The extractor must keep the case head from moving forward. Firing pin protursion can be as much as .055" Its going to reach the primer. Test Test Test :) http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/HeadClearance.jpg

[243winxb]

replace the firing pin spring Yes, good idea or try cleaning the bolt first. Another hint. Easing the cartridge into the chamber and locking the bolt resulted in 3 of 4 misfires today.
I chambered them again with a little extra force on the bolt and they fired. Ruger 77 may be a modified controled feed action? Extractor problem?:confused: Xbolt12, What happens when you feed the reloads from the magazine, does this make a difference, compared to placing the round in the chamber & closing the bolt.

[GLOOB]

Chalk me up as another who thinks the gun should fire no matter how undersized the case and no matter how the bullet is seated. If the extractor is grabbing the rim, and the action fully closes, it should be an inevitability.

I would inspect the firing pin. I broke the tip of the firing pin on my Savage M10 by dryfiring it. If your firing pin broke just the tip or if it was adjusted incorrectly, it might not be protruding as far as it's suppose to. I was able to turn down the body to lengthen the pin just enough to get back to spec.

IIRC, Savage manual calls for the FP to protrude between 0.053-0.072" past the breechface, or thereabouts. I'd check the Ruger manual to see where yours is supposed to be. It could be slightly different.

Also +1 for 243winxb. I think he may be onto something. If you have a combination of too much headspace plus a failure to get the case rim all the way under the extractor, that could definitely be causing this issue.

[xbolt12]

I found had a couple of reloads I had from another set of dies (I just bought new ones) and they shoot fine. The firing pin looks fine. Everything points to my new dies set up.

Recapping: I set the decap pin on the resizing die just long enough to punch out the old primer. I fully raised the press. I screwed the resize die in until it touched the shell sholder. I lowered the press. I screwed the die in another 1/8 turn and tightened the lockring set screw with a #7 1/2 shot under the set screw. The press "cams over" on the bottom of the stroke.

Bullet seating die: Raised press, screwed in die until shell holder touched, back die out until die no longer contacted shell holder. Locked set screw as above. Big stem (hex headed bushing) is screwed all the way in. Small stem is screwed in to achieve bullet depth.

Putting round in the breech or feeding from magazine makes no difference.

"pushing shoulder back too far". This is achieved by the die being screwed too far into the press or not far enough? I'm thinking too far.

By the way, thanks everyone for the posts.

[rcmodel]

Screwed down too far.

With your die, shell holder, and rifle chamber, you may not want or need to "cam over" that tight.

I would take the striker assembly out of the bolt so you can feel what you are doing.

Then back the die off to neck size only.

Keep trying cases in you rifle feeling for slight resistence while closing the bolt.

Keep adjusting the die until you can feel resistence, but not very much.

That right there is as close to perfect headspace on the case as you can get.

rc

[kingmt]

You may be bulging the neck with your seating die in to far. Set it with a sized case & no bullet in it.

[GLOOB]

+1. Not that this has anything to do with light strikes. But there's something definitely off with your method of setting up your seating die.

If you removed the "holder" part from your description, you would have nailed it, for setting up a seating die for no crimp, anyway. For a crimp, do the same, but turn the die further in a touch until you get the desired crimp.

Bullet seating die: [Put in a sized case, then] Raised press, screwed in die until shell touched, back die out until die no longer contacted shell. Locked set screw as above.

[fguffey]

Xbolt12,

Light primer striking misfires.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“
I just wanted to pass this along for something to consider if you are having misfires with your reloads. I am loading 25.06 Remington brass, CCI200 primers and 117 grain Sierra Game King bullets.
Only a very low percentage of the loads actually fired. My first thought was primer seating issues but everything I read steered my away from that. The problem turned out to be the bullets were seated out a smidge too far. I had partially neck sized an empty case then stuck a bullet in the mouth and chambered it, then measure the COAL with calipers to determine COAL for this bullet in this gun. I loaded 4 groups of 3 at 1/2 grain intervals looking for the best group.
When chambering these loads, the bolt locked without any tightness, but when the firing pin struck the primer, the cartridges were actually moving forward on the bullet as it was already touching the lands. Factory rounds fired fine. Primed brass with no bullet fired fine. I finally seated the bullets .01 deeper and they all fired fine with no problem. I hope this helps someone else somewhere down the road. Happy Loading!”

Bad habits, a reloader should know the length of the chamber, if not before they fire the first round they should know the length of the chamber by the the time they fire their second round, then there is the fire then measure, I measure first, then form then fire, all a reloader has to keep up with is the effect the chamber had on the case when fired.

Again, I do not have a rifle that is subject to the problems you have experienced.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

+1. Not that this has anything to do with light strikes. But there's something definitely off with your method of setting up your seating die.

If you removed the "holder" part from your description, you would have nailed it, for setting up a seating die for no crimp, anyway. For a crimp, do the same, but turn the die further in a touch until you get the desired crimp.


Quote:
Bullet seating die: [Put in a sized case, then] Raised press, screwed in die until shell touched, back die out until die no longer contacted shell. Locked set screw as above.
Screw the seating die down until it contacts the shell holder?
contacted shell. Locked set screw as above.


Screw the seating die down until it contacts the shell holder? AAAgain, not fair, my seater die has nothing to with contacting the shell holder, my contact point between is between the crimp portion of the die and mouth of the case. That is the reason is is important to trim all cases to the same length, failing to trim the case can cause a squatted/bulged condition at the shoulder.

Back to being unfair, I have killer firing pins, the case, powder and bullet can not outrun (my) the firing pin strike, my firing pins crush the primer before its little buddies (case, powder and bullet) know it has been crushed.

F. Guffey

[evan price]

Just for giggles and you-know-whats, a couple weeks ago, I had some primed 223 cases that were damaged and needed to be disposed of. I had a Smith & Wesson model 66 357 revolver and I was cleaning the grips. WHile looking at these messed up, primed 223 cases I got to wondering and using a pair of pliers I tore the end off of the 223 cases until they would fit into the 357 cylinder and the cylinder would close.
Obviously it's a rimless case. I got that.
I found that just the impact of the firing pin would put a ding in the primer but send the case down the charge hole instead of igniting the primer. For yuks I tried again and again. After about the sixth time it didn't go off I bent the brass so that the case wouldn't move and it finally fired.

What's that prove?

If the case is not restrained in some way it is totally possible to not ignite a primer.

Wether or not your extractor holds the cartridge case against the breechface tight enough to fire, this is NOT how it is designed or intended to be fired. That much slop in the chamber is a recipe for destroyed brass or a brass failure.

[fguffey]

evan price, bullet, powder and case? You removed the bullets, you remove the powder and you removed part of the case, then you placed the modified case in a cylinder that was designed for rimmed cases with pistol primers.

I would have pointed the muzzle straight up see if the firing pin would launch the case without busting the primer, if the primer did not fire I would then ask someone on a reloading forum if small pistol primers are softer than small rifle primers.

Then there is ‘time is a factor’.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

On the Internet, it is not easy to get someone to stop typing long enough to read and or listen. Again and again and again evidence has been presented, suggestions have been made etc..

“this is NOT how it is designed or intended to be fired” I do not load to defeat a design, I load with an understanding of the design, again, I do not have a rifle that will allow the case, bullet and powder to out run the firing pin, my firing pins are mechanically operated, by description mechanically operated should suggest to a reloader ‘mechanically operated’ is slow, again, I am the fan of time is a factor. I know the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the chamber shoulder.

That much slop (?) in the chamber is a recipe for destroyed brass or a brass failure'’ Bad habits is a recipe for destroyed brass or a brass failure'’.
On another forum a shooter chamber a round and then pulled the trigger, when he ejected the case it did not have a neck, the ejected case had a case head, case body and a shoulder, no neck, I explained to the confused shooter what happened, immediately I am accused of not understanding case separation due to insipient separation. (stop typing, start listening). No one ask ‘Where did the neck go on the case he fired? No one understood the case shortened .285”, shortened/lengthen, insipient separation is about gad habits and case stretch, again, his case shortened, it did not lengthen, those without a clue do not understand the length of the neck thing.

‘Where did the case neck go? in insipient separation the neck length does not change meaning the case moved forward and locks onto the chamber!!!!THEN!!!!! with the case body locked onto the chamber the head of the case is driven to the rear, the distance the case is allowed to move back when contacting the bolt face determines the amount of case damage and or failure or shortened case life.

I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel. Most reloaders can not get past the snap back, jump back or case spring back, my cases are lucky they have head stamps, if they want to know what they were before I pulled the trigger all they have to do is check their head stamps, because, after I pull the trigger the case has no memory of what is was before the primer was crushed.

What's that prove?

If the case is not restrained in some way it is totally possible to not ignite a primer.

Wether or not your extractor holds the cartridge case against the breechface tight enough to fire, this is NOT how it is designed or intended to be fired. That much slop in the chamber is a recipe for destroyed


A boring story, good for listeners, not ‘typers’ , I have fired 8mm57 ammo in an 8mm06 chamber, for those that are listening that is the equivalent of .174” difference in length from the head of the case to the shoulder/datum and chamber length, the shoulder of the case being fired was not driven to the front of the chamber (as the story goes, the firing pin drove/launched the case forward and the case stopped when the shoulder of the case came in contact with the shoulder of the chamber, then! the primer went off etc., my opinion, that story should start with ‘Once upon a time’)

The ejected 8mm57 case did not have a neck, the shoulder of the fired case did not move forward, it was erased and became part of the case body, the new shoulder was formed when the case filled the chamber from the neck meaning the neck became the shoulder, so it goes with forming, again, no one scribes the case body shoulder juncture, no one scribes the shoulder/neck juncture.

F. Guffey

[xbolt12]

Thanks rc. You fixed my problem...........and potential other problems!

[rcmodel]

Thanks rc. You fixed my problem...........and potential other problems! Yeppers!

I thought it might. ;)

rc

[GLOOB]

Yikes. If a little extra headroom was enough to cause that many light strikes, I would personally measure my firing pin protrusion to make sure it was in spec. I like my guns to fire when I pull the trigger.

edit: If a 10mm semiauto can fire 40SW cases that are 0.125" too short, I want my rifle to fire a case that's less than a couple hundredths of an inch too short, 100% of the time. Most dies won't size much, if at all, shorter than min SAAMI spec. Unless the OP got a bad die, I can't imagine how factory ammo fires perfectly, but FLR reloads don't, and that there's nothing wrong with the gun. I wouldn't tolerate that until I got to the bottom of it.

[xbolt12]

By the way, what exactly are ops and trolls?

[kingmt]

ops=operators trolls are people looking to argue

[GLOOB]

OP is original poster or original post.

...Well, at least that's what I've been going with all these years.

[xbolt12]

Thanks kingmt. I have to chuckle now.

[kingmt]

Yes OP is original poster. I should have count what he was asking. Since there is no ops on this site.

[rcmodel]

OP = Operators Press - die adjustment error. :D

rc

[fguffey]

I disagree.

The extractor in a 25-06 bolt-action of any brand should have nothing at all to do with preventing the case from moving away from the firing pin.

Headspace in a 25-06 is controlled entirely by the case shoulder.


Murf’s suggestion makes more scene than RC rational when describing the difference in actions.


“the op makes no sense whatsoever. i smell a troll.

murf”

Again, Hatcher moved the shoulder forward .080”, Hatcher knew the case would not stretch .080”, he did not know when it would happen so he moved the shoulder (of the chamber) forward progressively, a little at a time. After hatcher pulled the trigger he ejected a new creation, Hatcher became a fire former, his fire formed cases became 30/06 Hatcher Modified +.080 cases. One more time, Hatchers case did not run to the front of the chamber, the shoulder of his cases did not slam into the shoulder of the chamber.

I have fired 8mm57 ammo in a 8mm06 chamber, the difference in length between the case of the 8mm06 and 8mm57 case is .126”, that is .046” more than Hatchers modified chamber, guess what, no stretch between the case head and case body, the case shortened + or – .285”, back to rc’s

“I disagree.

The extractor in a 25-06 bolt-action of any brand should have nothing at all to do with preventing the case from moving away from the firing pin.

Headspace in a 25-06 is controlled entirely by the case shoulder”.


Headspace in a 25-06 is controlled entirely by the case shoulder? A very boring conversation starts with “Hatcher said” another boring conversation starts with “Head space is....” and they will never figure out why Hatcher did not get the results he anticipated.

F. Guffey

[rcmodel]

Mr. Guffey.
I hate to disagree again.

But I haven't a single clue what you just said there??

Anyway, we were never talking about the 1900's era military bolt-action rifles Maj. Gen. Julian S. Hatcher was experimenting with in 1920.

The OP was talking about a modern Browning X-Bolt with a firing pin that Twitches in a Milli-second, instead of Falling 1/2" like a 98 Mauser or 03 Springfield.

There is a remarkably different difference in what is acceptable headspace for reliable ignition in a modern short lock-time sporting action.

And what was acceptable headspace in a 1900's era battle rifle for reliable ignition.


But don't quote me on that.
Or if you do, learn how to do it first, so I get full credit for saying it. ;)

rc

[xbolt12]

Yep, I did butcher seating die set up desription by saying shell holder instead of case mouth. I did go back and reset the seating die to a full turn out from case mouth contact since I see no purpose in being just barely off the mouth. Joining was a good decision. I've learned a lot. Some have been very loquacious and others direct and to the point. Thanks to all. I learned a long time ago to listen to everyone then apply what works. The old Ruger has fired a lot of rounds over the years without a single misfire until I fouled up this die set up. I didn't have a good understanding of head space but I've got it now. I'll be well prepared for setting up dies for the .06 xbolt when it comes in. Thanks all!!

[xbolt12]

30.06 I should have said, in reference to the new gun.

[fguffey]

Like Murf, How did you know anything about the rifle, one of the first questions by 243 Win was what rifle then a question

One of the last post by by Abolt12. “I'll be well prepared for setting up dies for the .06 xbolt when it comes in. Thanks all!!”

You hate to argue? Just a suggestion, avoid being too eager to type.

F. Guffey

[243winxb]

And the problem was.... Kingmt, Post 21 You may be bulging the neck with your seating die in to far. The bulge will create a false shoulder. When the cartridge head clearance is on the short side/loose, the firing pin strike will be absorbed by moving the bulged neck forward. Wildcat cartridges are formed by making a larger false shoulder, that can handle the strike of the firing pin. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/falseshoulder.jpg I am out of here. :)

[xbolt12]

No, there was never any false shoulder. I just readjusted out from the case mouth a little more for extra precaution The actual problem was oversizing the case as rc suggested.

[xbolt12]

Guffy, let me sum it up for you. You seem to have gotten confused along the way due to my not so properly worded posts.
Problem: misfires
Rifle: Ruger 77 25.06
Solution: Resize for proper chamber headspace.
New rifle ordered. Xbolt 30.06