[geekWithA.45]

This is an actual general gun question. I thought about tossing it into handguns, but it's probably more general than that.


Here's the Scoop:

This is a photograph of the barrel of my original .45 (Sig P245), through which I've fired at least 8,000 rounds, I'd estimate.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=843377

You're looking at it POST cleaning, which entailed:

Hoppes out the gazoo
100 strokes with a copper brush, interspersed with
Tons of patches
64 strokes with a tornado brush interspersed with
tons of patches
A 15 minute soaking in Blue Wonder, followed by
tons of patches
A sizeable blasting with Gun Scrubber, followed by
A patch....let's face it, that's all you need after gun scrubber, followed by
a pass with oil followed by
a patch.


Ignore the grains and threads of dust that somehow got in there in the 10 o'clock position, and take a look at the part I've circled in red.

Basically, I've got that running parrallel to the all the grooves, more or less for the full length of the barrel, although you can only see it in that small area where it's in focus.

What the heck is that?

Because it's been taking longer and longer to get the barrel clean, I'm suspecting it _might_ be towards the end of it's service life, but I've never seen a worn out barrel, so I don't know how to interpret what I'm looking at.

BTW, I recall reading a 10k round torture test on a sig p220, and in the end, it wound up being more accurate than when they started out, after a "super cleaning", so I'm not convinced it's finished.


Functionally, the gun works fine, and doesn't seem to have lost any noticeable accuracy. (I figure about 10 guys are going to say, "what's my problem then?" ;) )

Maintenance history:

I'm pretty meticulous. This gun has never gone longer than a day or two after firing wihout being thoroughly scrubbed.

[Goet]

Hoppes out the gazoo
100 strokes with a copper brush, interspersed with
Tons of patches
64 strokes with a tornado brush interspersed with
tons of patches
A 15 minute soaking in Blue Wonder, followed by
tons of patches
A sizeable blasting with Gun Scrubber, followed by
A patch....let's face it, that's all you need after gun scrubber, followed by
a pass with oil followed by
a patch.


I think you missed the hour long dip in HCl and the cleansing by flamethrower.



Do you seriously do all that EVERY time?!?

[geekWithA.45]

LOL!

No, this was my "by gum I'm gonna get that stuff cleaned out, gosh durnit!" cleaning. :scrutiny:

Normally it's Hoppes, 80-100 strokes, and maybe a dozen patches or so.

[Zak Smith]

I wouldn't worry about it unless you're having accuracy problems. A .45ACP barrel should last many tens of 1000's of rounds. FWIW, I don't really clean my 1911 barrel anymore.

-z

[twoblink]

I usually have my guns shiny as well.. What you do is take women to the range, and then say "I'll pay and I'll teach, but you clean. Most say ok. So they sit with hoppes and patched and clean until the gun is shinier than a mirror... :D

If accuracy isn't a problem, I don't see the circled in red part being that bad, and so just keep shooting.. It doesn't look so bad as to worry about barrel fatigue... so safety is not an issue if accuracy isn't.

[P95Carry]

If there's rifling - and that engraves and spins the bullet ...... then all is pretty well!:p

I think if we all looked real close at barrels.... we'd find areas that seem less than perfect!

[Matt G]

I've a little patch of that same scale at 10'oclock, about 3/4" into my Kimber's barrel. I've hit the poor thing hard with lead remover, copper solvent, new copper brushes wrapped in unraveled copper Chore Boy (a sure fire for Pb removal, BTW), tight muslin patches, etc.

I've been meaning to gently probe it with one of my wife's dental tools (she's a sculptor, not a dentist-- don't worry!), but haven't gotten around to it.

In the meantime, the pistol shoots more accurately than I can hold, so I don't stay up nights worrying about it. (Last match, I shot it for 4th in a field of 40 in the accuracy stage. [Only mod I've made to the thing is pitching the full length guide rod and putting an arched steel mainspring housing in.])

[duckfoot]

8k! Light weight!! But if you feel that you need a super clean barrel, then I suggest this.

Find a plastic barrel brush for a .45 (looks like a bottle brush but for guns.) Snip off the loop on the end and stick it into a drill chuck it down. Rub a pea sized amount of JB bore polish onto the bristles. Grip the barrel in one hand and start the drill in the other. Move the barrel not the drill and bore that sucker out for 3 min each way moving the whole length of the barrel. Sounds pretty good so far, but what I do next I hear a lot of flack on. Squirt some liquid soap back on to the brush and bore out the barrel again each way was for ten or fifteen seconds and then bore the barrel out under some hot running water for ten or fifteen seconds each way again. Dry patch till clean (if this is necessary other than for removing water then you did something wrong) then lube. If done correctly only the plastic bristles will touch the barrel, but will be clean as can be. I only do this to newly acquired pistols, or to pistols (autos only) with questionable barrels. This process will also show a little bit more when used with a bore scope and only takes maybe 10 min, 12 if I have to find stuff.

Take it, leave it, it works for me

Duckfoot

[Carlos Cabeza]

Not an expert but it appears to resemble galling that may have occured during the rifling process. Is it possible you never noticed it before or should I just shut up. :D

[Johnny Guest]

geekWithA.45 - - -

Firstly, I really think this is a topic for either HANDGUNS: General discussion or, possibly, Gunsmithing and Repairs forum. Howsomeever, if the GGD moderator wants to keep it, no problem.

Second - - It is really hard to tell on the basis of a single image, but that red-circled area doesn't appear to be fouling - - To me, it looks more like a rough spot in the steel. I wonder is there was a defect in the rifling broach when the barrel was first rifled. I'd say it is entirely possible to miss seeing this in a new pistol - - There's a bit of oil in the bore, and you can easily overlook a small blemish.

One way to tell - - take a piece of thin but stiff wire. Sharpen one end, and put a quarter-inch bend at that end. With good illumination, pass the sharp end down the barrel, gently, so as not to scratch the bore further. With a little practice, you can tell the difference between a bullet metal deposit ON the inside of the barrel, and a pitted or gouged-out area INTO the surface.

Even if it is a defect in the steel, I wouldn't consider it a problem. You say the pistol shoots very well. (Does that comment make me one of those who are asking, "What's your problem then?" :D) Seriously, if it works well, I'd just shoot the piece until it became a problem, and then get a replacement barrel. Unless you shoot some horribly hot loads, or are really wealthy, you'll probably never wear out that barrel by shooting the pistol. There are other ways to ruin a barrel . . . .

Uh, duckfoot - - Have you considered the "unnatural" wear introduced to the pistol bore with the method you suggest? Normal cleaning runs the brush/patch/lead remover breech-to-muzzle and back again, in the direction of the rifling. It is intended to loosen and clean out fouling of various types from the lands and grooves. This is a mechanical and chemical action, applied in a longitudinal orientation to the bore, not unlike the forces applied by the bullet in the normal course of operation.

If you use a power drill, you are moving the brush bristles transversely, across the rifling. This may well polish the lands nicely, but it does two other things - - - It is raking all the "stuff" into the grooves, especially into the angle where the lands get to the bottom of the grooves, and only on one side. It is also introducing a great deal of wear ACROSS the rifling. The nice, sharp, corners of the lands are polished into roundness, simulating the wear of many thousands of rounds sent down the bore in a normal fashion.

The JB bore paste is an abrasive, and this aggravates and intensifies the effect of the transverse polishing. I understand, it would SEEM that the nylon brush would be gentle on the steel. I believe that with the addition of the abrasive paste to the effects of whatever crud you pick up from the bore, you are artificially aging your barrel enormously, for no benefit other than a shiny bore. I must agree with your conclusion though: the barrel "will be clean as can be."

Please believe - - This is in no way a flame or personal criticism. I just thought I'd throw out a couple of factors you might not have considered.


Best,
Johnny

[wingman]

Just curious have you used moly bullets or used moly prep in the barrel.?

What type ammo have you used most.? reloads, lead, commerical brands.?

[P95Carry]

Johnny makes a good point .... re spinning a brush in a rifled barrel .. I have always thought just the same .. it's logical.

Only use for power tool brush spinning IMO is for use in revo chambers .. and then judiciously.

[bogie]

I doubt this would greatly affect pistol accuracy, but I noticed something...

You said something about a Tornado brush... Is that one of those spiral stainless suckers?

NEVER use anything steel, stainless or otherwise, as a barrel brush. It'll cause a rough barrel.

That said, the bore looks okay to me for a handgun - I would start to freak out if one of my BR barrels was that rough tho. Does it shoot okay?

[geekWithA.45]

Some answers for y'all:

I mostly shoot factory fmj out of it.

Factory defect? Well, it wasn't there 3000 rounds ago....

As for the tornado brush, It's reserved for "special" cleanings, which means I don't use it all that much, because I'm only _partially_ convinced that it's harmless. (IIRC, they use a softer steel than the barrel)

The other thing that needs clarifying is that the circled area is the only part of the photo that is IN FOCUS, giving detail of what is essentially a barrel long STREAK that appears along the spinward edge of ALL the lands.

I really can't determine whether it's something deposited on the metal, or whether it's erosion of the metal itself, hence my post. I've doinked it a little with a dental probe, and if it's fouling, it's stuck on there pretty good.

[mete]

Carlos has the most logical answer. 8,000 rounds is hardly past the break-in stage.

[P95Carry]

I mostly shoot factory fmj out of it. ''Mostly'' ..... does that mean you have used some cast now and again? Also .. and I don't think I missed this in earlier posts here .... exactly where in the barrel is this bit pictured?

I know you referred to whole length .. and obviously focus is tricky for this sorta C/U shot. But am interested to know if this part is maybe the worst or purely ''typical''. I have had occasions when a small amount of leading seems to resist almost attempts to shift it .. even FMJ's ... tho it'd be interesting here to run a Lewis lead remover thru coupla times - just to see if any change.

[geekWithA.45]

Nope, never shot a cast bullet out of it, the alternatives to fmj are factory hp and efmj, which I'm sure are pretty much the same as far as the bbl is concerned.

I'd say that segment is typical, and honestly, random, in that is was the best of about 10 photos I took.

I was lucky to get that shot as is, _picking_ a spot would be even tougher.

The photo was taken from the muzzle, and shows a region maybe 3/4 of an inch in.

[1911Tuner]

The copper fouling will come right out with some Sweet's 7.62 or
the less aggressive Shooter's Choice Copper Solvent. Follow the directions
closely and don't leave it in the bore for more than 10 minutes. Butch's
Bore Shine is less aggressive still, but will take a little longer. If all else
fails, get some J&B Bore Cleaner and use a tight patch to scrub it out.

The damaged area appears to be flame erosion/stress cracking similar to what is seen in the forcing cones of .357 Magnum revolvers after a steady
diet of hot 125-grain loads. Most often seen just in front of the chamber or
slightly past the leade.

There's also the possiblilty that it's pitting that started under the copper fouling and was just uncovered by the recent cleaning ritual. The copper
fouling that lays down either seals moisture under it, or the moisture leaks past it and lays there. Since the fouling is shiny, sometimes it's hard to
see without a close inspection under a strong light, so it doesn't get cleaned out for some time. The moisture continues to work on the barrel steel, and the pitting isn't noticed because it's under the copper.

It it's pitting, you will likely see more after getting all the copper fouling out.

Hope this helps.

Tuner

[Vern Humphrey]

Some of the best advice I ever got in the shooting game was, "Ask the gun."

Is the barrel worn out? Ask the gun! Shoot it and see how it does.

I have worn out a .45 barrel -- after many thousands of full charge loads, the lug began to crack from battering against the frame. I have never SHOT one out.

[Dave Markowitz]

Considering that the gun shoots ok, I'd leave the barrel alone. Bore scrubbing sessions like you describe in your initial post put extra wear on the barrel, and you'd be better off putting the same amount of wear on it by sending lead downrange.

IMO, YMMV.

[JohnKSa]

Your gun shoots fine by your own admission. Functions well, accuracy is undiminished.

The "questionable area" isn't visible without special tools.

The whole idea that there might be something wrong with the barrel is bordering on mental illness... ;)

I can just about guarantee you that you're putting a lot more wear on your gun cleaning it than shooting it.

Here's what you need to do:

Spend about 1/4 the time you currently are on cleaning the bore.
Quit using a borescope or magnifier to look into the bore. Just hold it up with one end pointed at the ceiling lighting and look through the other end. You don't need to see the inside of your bore any better than that.
Quit using steel brushes.
Quit counting the number of brush strokes.
Quit using J&B
You can soak it if you feel like it but not in ammonia based solvents.
The bore is clean when the patches come out white.

The barrel is shot out when accuracy declines noticeably.

[duckfoot]

Johnny Guest

You’re right. It's not something I do often, and only when the integrity of the barrel is in question IE looking for alligator patches, fissures, discoloration etc..... (yes, you need a bore scope to see these) As I mentioned this is on only auto pistols where a barrel can be replaced without it being sent to a gunsmith. I guess I forgot to mentioned the ware aspects of the process for every day cleaning. Thanks for pointing that out.

[bogie]

Toss that steel brush in the trash.

NOW!