45long colt question

I reload 45acp and 30/06,my son just bought a 45 long colt pistol revolver that I want to reload.Do I have to taper crimp this load and why? At first glance in speer manual the bullets are all taper crimp.Any help is appreciated.

I roll crimp on 45 LC. Bullets that I use have a crimp groove.

I am curious why they have to be roll and or taper crimped.

Usually semi-automatic pistol cartridges are taper crimped. Revolvers typically are roll crimped. The semi-auto taper crimp is because the cartridge headspaces on the case mouth. If you roll it, it will upset the headspace which could be nasty. Also to roll, you usually need a cannelure or crimp groove. I don't know why exactly revolvers are usually rolled, but I suspect it is because it is stronger which can be needed to keep bullets from jumping crimp under heavy recoil. You can taper crimp revolver rounds if you want to though.

On a pistol the round (45 ACP) head spaces on the case mouth and it has to catch on the chamber wall. A revolver head spaces on the flange at the head allowing you to use a roll crimp that holds the bullet a lot tighter. This will hold the bullet from walking out of the cylinder mouth after several shots especially in magnum chamberings. It also promotes complete propellant burn before bullet starts to move.

I roll crimp mine. Snugges it into the lead.

+1

Straight wall auto-pistol cartridges headspace on the case mouth = Taper Crimp.

Rimmed revolver calibers headspace on the rim = Roll Crimp.
(To keep recoil from jerking the bullets out of the unfired rounds still in the cylinder.)

Revolver bullets have a crimp groove or cannelure so you can roll-crimp them.
Auto-pistol bullets are smooth with no place to roll-crimp, so you taper-crimp them.

rc

Revolver bullets have a crimp groove or cannelure so you can roll-crimp them.
Auto-pistol bullets are smooth with no place to roll-crimp, so you taper-crimp them.


To confuse things, there are plated bullets that are for use in revolvers and they generally do not have a cannelure. A taper crimp in a revolver case will work with these or a light roll crimp. The crimp is mostly just to remove the belling in these instances. Besides, you should not drive plated bullets at magnum velocities.

A normal moderate to heavy roll crimp with a plated bullet may distort the case mouth where it may not chamber.

Good point!

I failed to mention that.

rc

.45 Colt - Roll crimp on a lead bullet with crimp groove.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=155741&stc=1&d=1325298071

.44 Special - Taper crimp on a plated bullet
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=127484&stc=1&d=1284164490

not a green horn at reloading ,but now a green horn at 45colt.looking at bullets I c .451 and.452 dia for the 45 long colt.how do I know what bullet to get.

1872 cimarron 45 long colt army is the weapon.

I use .452 lead bullets. A regular Colt or repro fixed sight revolver is regulated to point of aim with 250 grain LRNFP bullet IIRC.

not a green horn at reloading ,but now a green horn at 45colt.looking at bullets I c .451 and.452 dia for the 45 long colt.how do I know what bullet to get.

All depends upon the size of your cylinder throats. Take one of your .45 ACP bullets and drop it in each cylinder chamber. If it falls right through the throats, you need a larger diameter bullet. You should be able to push it through, but not have it fall through on it's own.

Don

Everything I've read recommends a fairly stout roll crimp for the 45 colt. I reload other calibers and have not seen this same recommendation. I gather that it's important for achieving reliable powder ignition and preventing bullet jump, something especially important in 45 colt or when using "Ruger only" loads.

Per my experiments I have verified:

Roll crimp helps two things:
1) keeps heavy recoil from yanking the bullet out and jamming the revolver.
2) helps get good ignition with ball powder like W296/H110. Bad ignition can cause a squib and jam the revolver.


Per my range time I am suspicious:

Roll crimp into the cannelure improves accuracy in rifles with 45 Colt. Maybe because ignition is more consistent.

One more option to add to the confusion. If you load with black powder, neck tension is all you need to hold the bullet in the case.

If there's a crimping groove in your bullet, by all means why not use it & roll crimp.

I have used plated bullets without crimping groove in .45 LC reloads and taper crimped them as to manufacturer's instructions :
They state that you can taper crimp as hard as you like, provided you don't "break" (damage/cut through) the plating.

I mostly use standard-level powered loads with relatively fast (to medium) powders such as VV N-320 and N-340. They have always worked fine, even if only taper-crimped.

not a green horn at reloading ,but now a green horn at 45colt.looking at bullets I c .451 and.452 dia for the 45 long colt.how do I know what bullet to get.
As a general rule, just as in your 45 Auto when you load a jacketed bullet you use a .451" bullet and when loading lead it's a .452" bullet, the same holds true with the .45 Colt. Of course I'm talking about modern revolver like you bought, the older Colts can require .454" bullets or wider.

BTW, there is no such thing as a 45 "Long" Colt. The 45 S&W/45 Schofield was nicknamed the 45 Short Colt but there was never a 45 Long Colt, just the .45 Colt... (not being a jerk, just giving the facts)

You and your son are going to love shooting the 45 Colt, especially in a SA revolver. It's a fun cartridge that's powerful but with less recoil than you would expect. A hint, if you want a touch of "old world" without loading black Powder or one of the substitutes give Trail Boss a try. It's a close replica of the Black Power feel and you even get a little smoke that I think they added intentionally. Have fun and welcome to the forum...

BTW, there is no such thing as a 45 "Long" Colt. The 45 S&W/45 Schofield was nicknamed the 45 Short Colt but there was never a 45 Long Colt, just the .45 Colt... (not being a jerk, just giving the facts)

That term's been in common use for a long time, "correct or not". (not being a jerk, just giving the facts)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/ammo%20and%20reloading/45LongColt02jpg.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/ammo%20and%20reloading/45LongColt01jpg.jpg

As a general rule, just as in your 45 Auto when you load a jacketed bullet you use a .451" bullet and when loading lead it's a .452" bullet, the same holds true with the .45 Colt. Of course I'm talking about modern revolver like you bought, the older Colts can require .454" bullets or wider.


It's not just the older Colts that will shoot better with the larger bullet. Don't assume that you have correct size throats and need .452" bullets, measure them. I have .454" throats and my revolver shoots better with the larger diameter bullets.

Don

Do I have to taper crimp this load and why?

For 45 Colt:
If the bullet has a cannelure, I roll crimp in said cannelure.

If I use Berry's or some other bullet without a cannelure, then a medium taper crimp is applied.
Hard enough to prevent the bullet from jumping on recoil, but not so hard as to cut the plating.

now having problems finding bullets,my speer #12 book only shows about six bullets,midway usa shows none of the bullit numbers so I assume they are no longer in production.Ifound 250gr #4484 but have no reloading data in my book for that load.Guess I have to get updated book

With a bullet that has a cannalure you crimp to the cannalure for the length. The weight and type matter but to the extent if it is the same style and both are made out of say, lead (or jacketed) and are the same weight they could be interchanged----but the load should be reduced 10% and worked up, all the way to max only if needed. As should be done when trying out any new set of components in your firearm.

Having the EXACT bullet listed is not mandatory. The data for lead OR the data for jacketed OR the data for a solid, does need to be kept within the same TYPE and the weights need to be the same to be exchangeable however. Missouri Bullet makes a couple fine lead bullets especially for the 45 Colt.

As FROGO207 said, you don't need load data for the exact bullet, just the same weight and construction type. It's not like you're going to be on the bleeding edge pressure-wise. Take the load data for a 250gr jacketed bullet, reduce it a bit, and there you are. Somewhere's about 8.0 to 8.5gr of Unique would be a good place to be.

Don

That term's been in common use for a long time, "correct or not". (not being a jerk, just giving the facts)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/ammo%20and%20reloading/45LongColt02jpg.jpg
Just because those 2 boxes from small companies and possible more have the wrong name on them doesn't make it correct. I was trying to help and then you decide to jump in and try to make me look bad. If that floats you boat I hope you enjoyed the ride... :rolleyes:

That term's been in common use for a long time, "correct or not". (not being a jerk, just giving the facts)
I suppose the term Long Colt is no longer necessary ? but at one time it made more sense. I wonder if some day folks will be arguing what to call the 22 long rifle :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rondog
That term's been in common use for a long time, "correct or not". (not being a jerk, just giving the facts)



Just because those 2 boxes from small companies and possible more have the wrong name on them doesn't make it correct. I was trying to help and then you decide to jump in and try to make me look bad. If that floats you boat I hope you enjoyed the ride...


No need to get all butt hurt, I was just pointing out that people have been calling it that for a long time. Personally, I'm on your side, I call it .45 Colt. Looked it up on Wikipedia, and that's what it's called there as well. But Wiki did mention this paragraph....

Alternate name - The designation ".45 Long Colt", sometimes abbreviated as ".45 LC", originated among military personnel to prevent confusion with the shorter-cased .45 Schofield which was also used in .45 Colt SAA revolvers by the US military. It has become a popular, yet improper, name for the cartridge.

I prefer .45 Colt, but I think it's important for people to know about the .45 "Long" Colt name, and realize that they're the same thing.

I also wonder how many people, when they hear .45 Colt or Colt .45, automatically think of the M1911 platform?

I suppose the term Long Colt is no longer necessary ?
My understanding is there was was never a 45 short Colt, so why was the long added ?
I guess in the day the word long was added as a slang term.
I know what folks mean if they say either and it doesn't bother me to have the word Long added.
A wise Gentleman told me, "Kid don't sweat the small stuff" ;)

Hello, m715. I am using the old Lyman 454190 bullet in my Turnbull- Colt S.A.A. My throats are right at .452" and thats what I size to. Best accuracy comes with start loads of Hodgdon Tightgroup, Unique and Solo 1000. TrailBoss loads grouped well also. This original design bullet has no crimp groove..crimping is done over start of ogive. Since these are light loads, a heavy crimp is not needed..which improves case life.

My understanding is there was was never a 45 short Colt, so why was the long added ?

Because in the late 1800's there were 2 commonly carried revolvers in gov't service; the Colt .45 SAA and the S&W .45 Schofield. Since the .45 Schofield cartridge could be fired in the .45 Colt SAA but not vice versa, the gov't standardized on the shorter cartridge for logistics purposes. So, you can just see someone with a .45 Colt SAA being given the shorter .45 Schofield cartridges and saying "No, I want the .45 Long Colt cartridges". Personally, I don't worry about semantics and have no problem referencing the cartridge in either manner.

Don

That term's been in common use for a long time, "correct or not".
Doing it wrong for a long time does not make it any less wrong.

The "Long" was originally to differentiate it from the .45Gov't, not the .45S&W. I think that "Colt" and "S&W" are pretty distinctive. The .45Gov't was loaded by military arsenals with a Colt rim but S&W length for use in both Colt and S&W sixguns. No firearm was ever chambered in .45Gov't.

In later days, it has been necessary for some ignorant folk to differentiate it from the .45ACP. Because the term "Colt .45" is so vague and could mean one of several guns in two distinct chamberings.

It is and always has been ".45Colt".

It is surprising to me sometimes when folks ask what is the difference in .45 ACP and .45 Colt, but heck, there was a time we did not know either.

How often do I see ambiguously titled threads about the 460?
Is that a 460 Rowland which is a 45 acp even longer?
Or is that a 460 S&W which is a 454 Casull even longer?

Here are where the .451" and .452" bullets go:

45 GAP..............0.755" case
45 acp ..............0.898" case
45 Super............0.898" case
45 Auto Rim.......0.900" case
460 Rowland.......0.957" case
45 Win Mag........1.198" case
45 Colt..............1.285" case
454 Casull..........1.383" case
460 S&W............1.800" case

Here are where the .451" and .452" bullets might go, but may not be worth mentioning:

11 mm French ...... 0.710" case
451 Detonics.........0.942" case
11 mm German .....0.960" case
44-100 Maynard ... 2.880" case

And there are lots of other cartridges not worth mentioning with .454" bullets.
The wiki page and the SAAMI documents say "45 Colt" not "45 Long Colt", but my pages of personal load notes I often use "45LC".