M1 Question


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TonyInFla
December 20, 2012, 02:46 PM
My step-father has a M1 Garand that has been converted to 308, and the stock bedded. Is this something unusual? Has it ruined the value of the gun. I haven't heard of this before now.

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Reloadron
December 20, 2012, 03:00 PM
Unless an M1 Garand is bought strictly as a collectable they are all for the better part shooters.

Converting an M1 Garand to .308 is a very, very common practice as is bedding the rifle. I have at least one like this I built up years ago for match shooting. No it is not unusual and unless the rifle was absolutely correct as a collectable the vaule was not ruined. For the right shooter, depending on the changes done the rifle is likely worth more than a base shooter M1 Garand.

Ron

NeuseRvrRat
December 20, 2012, 03:00 PM
Is this something unusual?

not, it's not all that unusual.

Has it ruined the value of the gun.

well, we'd have to know some specifics about the pre-conversion M1 before we could answer that, but i doubt it "ruined" the value. just a different sort of person will be interested in it.

TonyInFla
December 20, 2012, 03:11 PM
Thanks for in info. We'll probably take it to the range soon and see how it shoots.

NeuseRvrRat
December 20, 2012, 04:06 PM
sweet! post pics and report back.

Reloadron
December 20, 2012, 04:34 PM
Thanks for in info. We'll probably take it to the range soon and see how it shoots.
Yeah, pics would be nice. The rifles I have shot that were chambered in .308 were a pleasure to shoot. My bedded rifle with a few other tricks is chambered in 7mm-08 Remington and a pleasure to shoot. I also have a standard one in 30-06. I still have a new .308 barrel sitting here so if I snag a beater Garand I'll re-barrel it in .308, just to round things out.

So enjoy the new rifle and shoot that thing!

Ron

SlamFire1
December 20, 2012, 05:07 PM
It was almost a right of passage for high power service rifle shooters to buy a rack grade Garand and modify it to a match configuration. Competition shooters are a tiny minority of all shooters but you will come across these Garands.

They are better shooters than GI Garands as issue barrels were of low quality and of course, stock bedding vastly improves things. There are other match modification, such as unitizing the upper hand guard. If your rifle is a true upgrade to NM configuration, don't pick it up by the handguard.

Reloadron
December 20, 2012, 05:47 PM
It was almost a right of passage for high power service rifle shooters to buy a rack grade Garand and modify it to a match configuration. Competition shooters are a tiny minority of all shooters but you will come across these Garands.

They are better shooters than GI Garands as issue barrels were of low quality and of course, stock bedding vastly improves things. There are other match modification, such as unitizing the upper hand guard. If your rifle is a true upgrade to NM configuration, don't pick it up by the handguard.
I would also add that beyond not picking the rifle up by the Front Handguard you also do not want to be constantly removing the rifle from the stock. The rifle was bedded to make things tight. Constantly removing the trigger group and disassembling the rifle is something you do not want to be doing. Many of these rifles also had modifications done to the gas tube, again it is unwise to constantly remove the gas tube.

Yeah, mine started out as a $25 DCM rifle I think. Eventually I went to the M1A and then the mouse guns. I still love shooting my old M1 though.

Ron

cfullgraf
December 20, 2012, 06:40 PM
My step-father has a M1 Garand that has been converted to 308, and the stock bedded. Is this something unusual? Has it ruined the value of the gun. I haven't heard of this before now.

CMP is currently offering a CMP Special grade M1 chambered in 308 Winchester. Also a 30-06 CMP Special.

There are Navy barreled receivers on the CMP web site that are 308 Winchester.

So no, not unusual.

stubbicatt
December 21, 2012, 08:41 AM
If I were to shoot cross the course again I would get the Garand in 308. Neat rifles.

Double Vision
December 21, 2012, 08:51 AM
A CMP 308 Garand is high on my wish list for "next" rifle. :)

ApacheCoTodd
December 21, 2012, 10:29 AM
I'd like to know some more:

Is the front HG affixed to its ferrules?
Does it have match sights?
Any armorer markings as to his identity or the re-marking of "match" components?
Is the butt plate stippled?

Things like that. Or in other words, is it a full blown Garand "transition" match gun from an armorer that only had Garands to work with rather than M-14s given the .308.

I'm intrigued.

TonyInFla
December 21, 2012, 02:20 PM
Don't have the gun with me right now, but will see step-dad in a couple of days and will see if I can answer your questions. Also would like to post some pics but not sure how. I'll see if I can get the pic thing figured out too.

ping
December 22, 2012, 09:26 PM
I ended up with a .308 Garand. a ww2 vet at or church died and had shot it in matches in 1962 and had won all kinds of awards. his wife up and gave it to me. she knew i liked rifles etc. It has not been shot since the 60's she said. super good shape. i have had it at the range and it is amazing. i dont know the history though. the barrel where there is usually a data or something on the right side is missing. were there ever .308 issued way back after lets say korean war. just interesting to hear someone else has one. wish i could find out more.

Don357
December 22, 2012, 10:00 PM
At one point towards the end of WW2, the US Navy used issue M1 Garands in .308 aboard ships. However, with yours having the barrel bedded, it is more likely a conversion than a Navy issue. Good find though, should be a great shooter.

Reloadron
December 23, 2012, 06:49 AM
At one point towards the end of WW2, the US Navy used issue M1 Garands in .308 aboard ships. However, with yours having the barrel bedded, it is more likely a conversion than a Navy issue. Good find though, should be a great shooter.
Actually just as a point the 7.62 NATO cartridge was developed during the 50s making it well post WWII but here nor there.

Some good information of the Navy's adoption of the M1 Garand chambered in the 7.62 NATO (7.62 X 51) cartridge can be found here. (http://www.forgottenweapons.com/m1-garand-development/navy-7-62mm-garand-conversion/) It took place during the early 60s and with the method the Navy used really did not fare out very well initially. It involved the use of chamber adapters.

The CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) does have an offering of Navy M1 Garand Barreled Receivers which can be seen at the bottom of this page. (http://www.thecmp.org/sales/m1garand.htm) They mention both flavors:

Barrels were originally .30-06 but were modified by installing a sleeve in the barrel, converting the barrel to 7.62.

and...

Barrels were manufactured as 7.62 and are not “sleeved”.

@ ping

I ended up with a .308 Garand. a ww2 vet at or church died and had shot it in matches in 1962 and had won all kinds of awards. his wife up and gave it to me. she knew i liked rifles etc. It has not been shot since the 60's she said. super good shape. i have had it at the range and it is amazing. i dont know the history though. the barrel where there is usually a data or something on the right side is missing. were there ever .308 issued way back after lets say korean war. just interesting to hear someone else has one. wish i could find out more.

As mentioned earlier in the thread rifles like the one you have and the one my wife will end up with when I am dead were built up by shooters or they had them built. A simple start would be to note the serial number and manufacturer and start by seeing what the rifle was when it was built.

During the 60s tens of thousands of M1 Garands were released and sold by the DCM (Director of Civilian Marksmanship) program which was the forerunner to the CMP we have today. Many of these rifles were custom bedded and rebarreled in a 7.62 NATO (.308) chambering. Depending on the rifle and its owner the process to improve accuracy could include from a few to many changes to the rifle. The idea being to convert a basic GI M1 Garand to a high quality match rifle.

As to the barrels and barrel markings. Actually during WWII Winchester barrels were marked on the top and not the side so the barrel data is not always visible. Here are a few examples:

http://www.bearblain.com/images/BBL2.png

http://www.bearblain.com/images/BBL3.png

http://www.bearblain.com/images/BBL4.png

After market barrels may be marked anywhere so not seeing a side marking is not unusual. However, they should at least be marked by the caliber. Additionally many after market barrels use a much fuller contour than the standard GI barrel. Removal of the rear hand guard will reveal if the barrel is a full contour and the underside of the rear hand guard will have considerable wood removed (hogged out).

The only way to really know what you have is thoroughly disassemble the rifle and note the changes. Several of which were mentioned earlier in this thread.

Ron

Onmilo
December 23, 2012, 09:20 AM
This is an M1 Garand barrelled in 7.62X51 and built to match grade standards
http://www.fototime.com/74931B4C79E9B3A/standard.jpg
Pic of shell block to prevent the loading of clips of .30.06 cartridges.
http://www.fototime.com/4F924F3A1DC5DA7/standard.jpg

This rifle was built from a $500 beater Garand and is now valued at $1300 retail

Reloadron
December 23, 2012, 10:25 AM
Something else to look for and I can't tell on the rifle Onmilo posted is the use of NM sights on these type rifles. The NM sights look like the following images for rear and front sights. The rear sight hooded aperture is rotated for 1/2 MOA click stops of elevation between 6 and 12 O'clock. The peep hole diameter is typically 0.0595" for use with the front sight which typically has a .062" width. Additionally the windage on the sight base allows for 1/2 MOA clicks.

Worth noting is that a high quality SMITH ENTERPRISE - M1/M14/M1A MATCH REAR SIGHT from Brownell's complete runs about $270 which is more than my first M1 Garand rifle cost me. :) Considerably more!

http://www.bearblain.com/images/Sight%20Rear%20NM2A.png

http://www.bearblain.com/images/Sight%20Front%20NM.png

Ron

SlamFire1
December 23, 2012, 04:40 PM
That NM front of 0.062” was for use with the old 5V target. I have shot on the 5V and it is a tiny target. At 500 yards it is the size of a pin point and it is very difficult to center up that speck in the middle of a regular GI post. Almost like centering a spec of dust on an infinitely wide horizon.

The top target is the 5V and the bottom is the old NRA 500 yard target. At 600 yards the seven ring is blacked out.

From what I can tell, the 5V was the width of an 03 Springfield sight at distance. When you look at old sights it is apparent they used to think that if you could hardly see your sight and/or target that somehow lead to precision shooting.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/5V%20targets/Reduced500YD5Vyardstickinmiddle.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/5V%20targets/Reduced600Ydabove5V.jpg

The NM front works if you shoot 6 OC on the modern target but the whole thing looks like a popsicle. Front sight practice went to center or flat tire and I personally looked for the widest GI sights I could find.

Reloadron
December 23, 2012, 05:30 PM
Yeah, those sights went on that rifle about 17 years ago when I built it. Another yeah, I shoot 6 O'clock. That rifle sees little use these days. My vision is not quite what it was and I don't bend and contort as well as I once did.

Slamfire, you should have linked to the excellent writeup you did on the old 5V target which can be found here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=524085) for anyone interested.

Anyway, back to this thread, check the rifle for modifications to see what was done.

Ron

Don357
December 25, 2012, 11:00 PM
By 'ReloadRon' "Actually just as a point the 7.62 NATO cartridge was developed during the 50s making it well post WWII but here nor there."

You are correct sir, and my thanks for correcting my mistake. I hate to pass on incorrect information. I guess I had a brain fart, or maybe I was just tired.

Swampman
December 25, 2012, 11:40 PM
@ TonyInFla
Be careful in your ammo selection when you take the rifle out to shoot. Some commercial loads will have too much port pressure and can damage your op rod. Hopefully someone with more knowledge of currently available ammo will chime in with advice on what to use.

TonyInFla
December 26, 2012, 02:13 PM
thanks Swampman. I just got the rifle and some ammo from my stepdad this morning. I checked the Hornady manual and his load of 49 grains of 748 with a 150 grain bullet seems a bit on the warm side for this rifle. I have Varget on hand so I think I'll load up some starting loads and see how they work.

WardenWolf
December 26, 2012, 03:39 PM
I believe the military arsenal-converted some Garands to .308 prior to the introduction of the M14. Wasn't the original .308 round developed, in part, to be better-suited to the Garand's pressure curve so they wouldn't have to rely on an obsolete .30-06 loading?

Onmilo
December 26, 2012, 08:30 PM
"Rebarreling the Garand in .308 is a common and safe practice,,,can provide somewhat better accuracy than the .30-06. However, propellants that are at the slower end of the spectrum for .308 for a given bullet weight are usually required to provide reliable functioning."
Hornady Load Manual 5th edition

My favorites are H 4895 IMR 4895 and Bl-C2
W748 and W760 are slower burners but I think the ball powders biggest problem is the fouling it causes.
I can find H 4895 slightly cheaper than IMR 4895 and use it in 150 grain loads for both .30/06 and 7.62X51
BL-C2 has been my personal favorite for 165-180 grain loads for years in the M1 Garand.
40.0 grains of the 4895s, BL-C2 & 748 in 7.62X51 and 43 grains in .30/06 will work well with bullet weights of 145-180 grains. HTH

TonyInFla
December 27, 2012, 02:17 PM
I took the gun to the range this morning. I was pleasantly surprised with the accuracy of the old rifle.. I managed to keep 24 shots in a 4 inch bull at 50 yards. This is really good for me and my old eyes and open sights.

I wasn't sure about my stepdad's ammo so loaded up some starting loads with Varget. The rifle was ejecting the brass to the front and right. Only thing I didn't like was searching for my brass.

Still trying to figure out how to post some photos. Should get some on photobucket this afternoon.

The guns not pretty but sure shoots good.

P5 Guy
December 27, 2012, 03:03 PM
TonyinFLA,
Where did you go shooting?

TonyInFla
December 27, 2012, 04:21 PM
At the Antelope Club.

Reloadron
December 27, 2012, 05:49 PM
Glad it shot well for you. Times like this I envy my son who lives in Florida. We just finished a post Christmas Day somewhat blizzard up here. Needless to say I don't shoot much rifle during the winters. :)

Ron

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