Liberty Guns safes, did I blow it?


PDA






mikechandler
December 21, 2012, 10:48 PM
I thought I was being smart, but I guess the salesman got the better of me. I went to a place today to look at a used American Security BF safe - with a 1/4" plate (I think it was 1/4", it sure wasn't 1/2") door, it was kinda smallish though... I think 24x18x60.. and I was concerned that the door could be pried open as it would be easy to get a crowbar under that plate.

So then he showed me his top of the line Liberty Safes Presidential, and explained that the door had two 3/16" plates inside, wrapped in ball-bearing steel all the way around, and that it was a "pry proof" safe. Of course it was like $3,400... so he took me in the back and showed me a Liberty Franklin FR50 - which looked like the same build quality and was big enough, and had really nice interior features... he told me it had the same plate in the door and the anti-pry tabs (whatever those are) - for 2600.00 installed, so I bought it. That was a cash price... delivery on 1/4/2013.

Now, reading THR archives, it sounds like the smaller amsec safe would have been higher security and this thing I got is little better than an old refrigerator with a lock - 11ga steel wrapped over sheetrock, that a fireaxe will go through in minutes.

I've been concerned about upgrading from a gun rack I have my long guns in and a small safe that I keep my handguns in - I was hoping with a safe this big, I could even put my Gibson Historic Les Pauls in there when I leave town. Now it sounds like hiding the guitars under the beds (worth more than the guns) is a better idea.

How bad did I blow this? Should I go back and shell out the extra money for the presidential? Their literature says all over it, "The best built safes on the planet!" - man do I feel like a chump.

I haven't even told my wife - she was counting on me to make a good choice :banghead:

If you enjoyed reading about "Liberty Guns safes, did I blow it?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
floorit76
December 21, 2012, 10:51 PM
Don't know much about the other safe, but what kinda fire rating does your matress have?

303tom
December 21, 2012, 10:56 PM
You got took...............

http://www.landmsupply.com/department/sporting-goods/safes/liberty-fat-boy-jr-gun-safe?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=google_base&gclid=COa0ob6PrbQCFbKiPAodxlsAHA

rondog
December 21, 2012, 11:01 PM
A little late now, but what state are you in? I know the best Liberty safe dealer in Colorado, and he might be able to refer you to someone where you are. Mark has the best prices, best selection and highest volume in CO, and he does free delivery to most of the state.

CB900F
December 21, 2012, 11:01 PM
Mike;

I'll never tell anybody that they shouldn't have gotten a protective container for their firearms. Anything is better than nothing. But, as a professional in this game, I don't have a lot of respect for that company's product.

You don't say what area of the country you live in. If it's in or near a metropolitan area, you can quite likely find a locksmith who's SAVTA certified and can actually show you how to tell fool's gold from the real thing. SAVTA is the Safe And Vault Technician's Assn., in other words, a pro not a salesperson.

Myself, I've gone with the product I sell. But given your choice, I'd have taken the AMSEC.

900F

mikechandler
December 21, 2012, 11:22 PM
You got took...............

http://www.landmsupply.com/departmen...FbKiPAodxlsAHA

That price is sickening - I wonder what they charge for a Franklin? The fatboy jr is a short colonial safe, it's smaller, and from the lower line...

The franklin is bigger, and the regular fatboy is a shorter version of that safe.

Still, I have that sinking feeling.

heeler
December 22, 2012, 12:38 AM
A few things...
Shame you didnt ask around here first as I know I have learned a good bit over the last five years.
All that being said if you bought a Liberty Franklin 50 delivered for $2600 you DID NOT get taken.
The safe that was linked is much smaller than your Franklin 50.
Although your sales guy was not truthful about several things he told you I can say that the Liberty Presidential has a 3/16 door skin and a 1/4 inch plate at the back of the door.
But it does not have a ball bearing lining all the way around it.
It does use a lock protection device with ball bearings to help repel a drill attack on the locking mechanism.
The anti pry device are tabs welded to the locking frame of the door and during a pry attack they push up against the steel of the door face skin to bolster a weaker door and it's locking pins because it is not plate steel such as the Amsec and flexes because it has little steel in the door so this helps make it more rigid.
It's another way to skin a cat so to speak, but myself,I prefer plate steel which is why I chose my own Amsec BF.
Your Franklins door has an outer door skin of 11 or 12 gauge steel with an 11 or 12 gauge inner liner.
The Amsec BF has a half inch plate steel door which blows away any Liberty safe door.
It does not flex.
Still the Franklin is a decent gun safe with a good locking mechanism.
You could have done much worse.
I read about it all the time here.

Cesiumsponge
December 22, 2012, 01:23 AM
AMSEC lists every BF series has a 1/2" solid steel plate on the door, except the BF7250 which steps down to 3/8". I suspect the door-to-body weight ratio ends up making the entire thing unbalanced if it isn't bolted down with an open door.

http://www.amsecusa.com/Gun_Safes/BF_Series_Gun_Safes/

mikechandler
December 22, 2012, 01:39 AM
The amsec I saw did not have a 1/2" plate on the door. It was 3/8" at most - it must not have been a BF model. I had read about sturdy and amsec, but never even knew about liberty safes, had never heard of them, and my data speed on my phone was really slow from the store. And this guy seemed honest. I did see the liberty video, with guns & ammo trying to pry a liberty safe open. I should've known, G&A are totally unreliable.

Reading more on the presidential, I don't feel it's that much more protection - any of these and they'll be into in short time anyway - none of them are burglar proof. I am disappointed.

I am thinking that I should build a fake wall at the end of my hallway, and hide the liberty, seeing it as a fire resistant and childproof container, but no real protection against professional thieves. I can have the hidden cubby ready for it by the time it arrives - that's probably the best I can do.

:fire:

I don't know that I would have done any better at cabelas - I feel now like the whole gunsafe business is a racket.

heeler
December 22, 2012, 01:42 AM
I talked to a former safe saleman and his main complaint about the Amsec BF was the door weight and the tipping if the safe was not bolted down which common sense dictates as a security measure you should.
According to him they just slipped a three foot yard stick under the front of the safe and supposedly this was just enough to keep the safe from tipping when the door was swung past 100 degrees.
Mine is bolted heavily to the concrete slab.

heeler
December 22, 2012, 01:45 AM
Mike...You just needed to research gun safes a bit more.
Your Franklin is a pretty decent gun safe all things considered.

Cesiumsponge
December 22, 2012, 01:56 AM
Cabela's carries rebranded Liberties and you're paying MSRP + 10% for anything Cabelas carries.

Only in the gun safe world will you hear sales complain that a safe is TOO heavy or the door is too heavy. I just purchased a small commercial safe with 1" solid steel plate construction and an additional aggregate security barrier. I WANT a heavy safe. It means there is MORE metal and MORE aggregate barrier to stop a bad guy.

clance
December 22, 2012, 02:03 AM
What you need to do is a "risk assessment" for yourself and ask the question:

What is my primary concern for purchasing the safe?
a.) Fire
b.) Theft

When I purchased my Liberty, Franklin 35 a month ago my main concern is fire. Working in security for several years I know that the vast majority of residential thefts are usual commited by juveniles looking to score fast cash. Generally we're talking about individuals that will take no more then 10 minutes to grab what they can and get out so not to get caught. So unless you give them the conbination chances are whatever you put in your Liberty will be there when you and/or the police arrive. Also realize that no safe is unbreachable if the thief(s) grabs a love one and demand you open it. So as few as necessary should know about your safe and don't leave it in plan view where anyone you wouldn't want to know could spot it. No sense in temping both them and/or fate.

The biggest threat of lost for you or anyone else is fire. As your's safe is the same model line as mine, you have a fairly good fire rating of 60 mins. at 1200 degree. The average home will be in the basement long before 60 mins so the next biggest threat to the contents in the safe is water as the fire department pumps thousands of gallons of water on the fire, turning your basement in to a swimming pool. Luckily I just happen to live around the corner from the local fire department so I'm not to concern about my safe landing in the basement, but if you life in the country where the volunteer fire responders will take 20 mins or longer to respond. You might want to think about the placement of your safe to give it the maximum protection from both heat and water.

If you still have a concern about the quality of your safe being sufficient to keep a thief out. Go to Radio Shack and pickup a alarm system for the room where your safe is. These are reasonable in cost and programable so that you can set it to call your cellphone if someone trips the sensor which is in the room with your safe. Get the motion sensor which also has the built in camera so you can see who or what trip the sensor in real time.

Another thing. If you have any tools or a cutting torch around which could be used to breach your safe. Don't leave them out and about where a thief could possible find them and use them to breach your safe. Even a incompetent thief can use a cutting torch so there is no sense making it easy for them by providing them the tools to get into your safe.

On a whole, the Liberty will provide enough protection against the average risk most home owners would experience

mikechandler
December 22, 2012, 12:31 PM
What you need to do is a "risk assessment" for yourself and ask the question:

What is my primary concern for purchasing the safe?
a.) Fire
b.) Theft

When I purchased my Liberty, Franklin 35 a month ago my main concern is fire. Working in security for several years I know that the vast majority of residential thefts are usual commited by juveniles looking to score fast cash. Generally we're talking about individuals that will take no more then 10 minutes to grab what they can and get out so not to get caught. So unless you give them the conbination chances are whatever you put in your Liberty will be there when you and/or the police arrive. Also realize that no safe is unbreachable if the thief(s) grabs a love one and demand you open it. So as few as necessary should know about your safe and don't leave it in plan view where anyone you wouldn't want to know could spot it. No sense in temping both them and/or fate.

The biggest threat of lost for you or anyone else is fire. As your's safe is the same model line as mine, you have a fairly good fire rating of 60 mins. at 1200 degree. The average home will be in the basement long before 60 mins so the next biggest threat to the contents in the safe is water as the fire department pumps thousands of gallons of water on the fire, turning your basement in to a swimming pool. Luckily I just happen to live around the corner from the local fire department so I'm not to concern about my safe landing in the basement, but if you life in the country where the volunteer fire responders will take 20 mins or longer to respond. You might want to think about the placement of your safe to give it the maximum protection from both heat and water.

If you still have a concern about the quality of your safe being sufficient to keep a thief out. Go to Radio Shack and pickup a alarm system for the room where your safe is. These are reasonable in cost and programable so that you can set it to call your cellphone if someone trips the sensor which is in the room with your safe. Get the motion sensor which also has the built in camera so you can see who or what trip the sensor in real time.

Another thing. If you have any tools or a cutting torch around which could be used to breach your safe. Don't leave them out and about where a thief could possible find them and use them to breach your safe. Even a incompetent thief can use a cutting torch so there is no sense making it easy for them by providing them the tools to get into your safe.

On a whole, the Liberty will provide enough protection against the average risk most home owners would experience

I woke up this morning thinking about the whole risk bit... and my biggest risk is fire, not professional thieves. Like you said, my biggest theft fear is juveniles looking for quick cash or prescription drugs - or my ADHD/bi-polar teenage daughter (the whole Newtown thing made me reassess my gun storage). The RSC will do fine for all this.

The fire department is less than half a mile from me - and they don't have to cross any stop lights either, they're right at the entrance to the community. I have an ADT alarm, but I don't have the motion sensors turned on during the day because of our dog. I'll be sure to activate everything when we leave town. My house has no basement - it's on a cement pad, and the safe will be bolted down. I don't have any grinders, fireaxes, pry bars, or a cutting torch.

My next safe will be a TLTR60x6 vault in a secret room and all. I feel more educated now - and as others stated, it's too bad I didn't know more up front - but all in all, I think I'm okay. I could have done worse.

beatledog7
December 22, 2012, 01:06 PM
You're suffering from buyer's remorse. The cure is to make a buying decision then stop shopping.

Any RSC is in reality little more than a speed bump to a determined and well-equipped thief. I bought a Liberty after doing what I considered to be rational research. It's big and roomy and holds everything I need it to hold securely enough to deter the average burglar, and it will provide decent fire protection. That's all you can really hope for unless you have mega bucks.

leadcounsel
December 22, 2012, 01:30 PM
I'm no expert, but think Liberty is inferior for the money.

I have no frills safes made by Sturdy. I've been very happy with their product and customer service. Much more affordable at 1/2 or 2/3 what you spent.

http://www.sturdysafe.com/minuteman.htm

I would immediately cancel the contract and do your homework before committing on that large of a purchase.

mstirton
December 22, 2012, 01:36 PM
$3200 delivered for a 7 gauge steel body and ceramic fire liner.
http://www.sturdysafe.com/model4824.htm
That's what I'll get when my budget allows. Meanwhile, since I have to have a RSC to hold my guns, I went cheap with the 10 gauge GS5940H that I got a few years ago for $1300 delivered.
http://www.diamondbackgunsafes.com/

I figure if I have to settle, why pay a premium to what still pretty much amounts to a sub-par safe?

CB900F
December 22, 2012, 03:13 PM
Fella's;

I've gotta admit that phrases that imply that true safes cost "mega-bucks" do kinda jerk my chain. I don't know what a mega-buck is, and I don't think there's a good definition in Webster's either.

So, I'll give as a concrete point of reference, the data for a true U.L. B rated Graffunder that's on my showroom floor right now, 12/22/12.

This safe is a Graffunder B7248. It is approximately 6 feet tall by 4 feet wide by 27.5 inches deep. It weighs 2340 lbs empty. The door is 1/2" thick plate steel. Every other exterior surface is 1/4" plate steel backed with approximately 1.5" of a proprietary concrete mixture containing a vermiculite fiber. The fiber is in there to make it harder to get a hot-spot going & burn into the safe. Interior to the concrete is a continuous liner of guage sheet steel that's very comparable to the exterior skin of an RSC. The interior layer of steel is also continuously welded. It keeps the vermiculite out of your enviroment and provides additional structural rigidity to the safe. The door has an upgrade gloss enamel panel with gold hardware and graphics. The interior is also upgraded with 48 slots for guns in three E-Z out bays. The bays have shelf tracks and additional shelf units for convertibility.

If your concern is thermal protection realize this: If you put more and/or denser material between the heat source and what you want to protect, you get better protection. Therefore juxtapose sheet metal and gypsum board or foam, to plate steel and concrete. Graffunder lists 1750 f for one hour, every minute of the test hour spent at 1750 f.

The freight has been payed from the factory to the shop. The showroom price also includes delivery at ground level to a radius of approximately 25 miles from the shop.

If you want to know the price, PM me. But it's well under what I think you guys think mega-bucks are.

900F

Steel Horse Rider
December 22, 2012, 04:38 PM
There are probably some end of the world survival shelters for sale at a discount right now, maybe that would make a secure environment to store your guns. :D From previous threads I can tell you that no matter what you would have purchased for even little or nothing someone would have been critical of your decision. :uhoh:

Tim the student
December 22, 2012, 05:23 PM
CB900F - Would you mind giving a price range? FWIW, I'd expect that safe go for around 5k, but it is really nothing more than a very slightly informed guess.

If we shop judiciously, how much would we be looking at for a safe that is actually a safe, not a RSC? Say 36 long guns.

browningguy
December 22, 2012, 05:29 PM
seeing it as a fire resistant and childproof container, but no real protection against professional thieves.

If professionals come to your house none of the safes will stop them, they will haul off the safe using whatever means required and take it apart later.

CB900F
December 22, 2012, 09:23 PM
Tim;

It's between what you thought & 10K. And, for the cynics on site, it's not all that close to 10K either. I don't play the same games with numbers that professional marketer guys do. Shame on me, oh well.

900F

mikechandler
December 23, 2012, 03:08 PM
No, I've now read myself to death, and what i needed all along was a Security Plan, which I now have, and will execute on, and for which the RSC is a portion, along with the other burlary rated safe I already have. I am going to stop stressing.

Tim the student
December 23, 2012, 03:28 PM
CB, thanks.

mikechandler
December 24, 2012, 01:43 PM
I just returned from my locksmith - I can upgrade to a presidential for about 1,000.00 - unfortunately the delivery cost goes up to, as it's a 1600 lb safe.

He pointed out that the comparable size amsec bf only has a 3/8" door, so the presidential beats it out on total steel content of the door, plus it has a 7ga body, versus the liberty 11ga, and it's fireaxe proof, and he said the only other gunsafe like that is a sturdy, without upgrading to a (I think he said) galfander.

So I'd be in this for a total of just under 4K.

Should I do this?

And if I do, is this safe secure enough against removal that I could just bolt my Amsec BLC2018 burglary rated safe inside, as a strongbox, for the valuables and handguns? That way it would get the fireprotection of the big RSC.

heeler
December 24, 2012, 02:18 PM
Mike this guy is wrong.
All Amsec BF models have a half inch plate steel door that is backed up by another one inch steel encased layer of Dry-Lite fire insulation.
The only BF model that has a 3/8" thick door is the massive 72x50 model.
The Presidential door has a 7 gauge skin aka 3/16th then has several layers of of sheetrock and then a two piece backing plate of 1/4 inch steel.
It is not as rigid as the BF model in 1/2" steel.
This is exactly why Liberty puts so many bolts around the door.
The BF has an 11 gauge outer wall then has two inches of seamless poured in Dry-Lite insulation and then another inner steel wall of 1/16th steel for a total of 3/16th,which equals the Presidential.
And it has much better fire protection than the Liberty.
Just look at those uninsulated bare spots behind the Liberty's internal hinges.
The Liberty is a good gun safe but the Amsec BF is better and costs less.

leadcounsel
December 25, 2012, 02:23 AM
Your NEXT move is to call Sturdy and talk to Terry. He knows his stuff.

plunge
December 25, 2012, 02:33 AM
I don't think very many of us have to worry about "professionals" coming to our house and breaking into our safes.

CB900F
December 25, 2012, 04:46 PM
Mike;

It's highly probable that the safe the locksmith you spoke with mentioned was a Graffunder. I'm a Graffunder dealer, one of the more active ones in the country I do believe. If you have any questions about Graffunder please contact me with them, I'd be glad to address them for you.

Rant on :cuss:. Gotta tell you that internal hinges are a pet peeve of mine. If the container being discussed is properly built, they are about as necessary as lips on a chicken. I don't know of a true safe, as opposed to an RSC, that uses them. I do know that our shop will not touch any door misalignment problems that involve internal hinges. It's not that we don't know how to correct them , but that the labor charges get to be a significant fraction of the value of the unit. So ask yourself, if the body is made out of sheet metal (ipso-facto an RSC) can it maintain the structural rigidity necessary to never distort to the point the door starts to give problems? If you move and want to take the RSC with you, the odds of body flex go way up. IMHO you're a lot better off with an RSC, or better yet a true safe, that uses external hinges. Rant off :fire: :banghead:.

:D 900F

mikechandler
December 25, 2012, 07:46 PM
Yeah, after all I've seen - I want a Gaffunder, and can maybe afford a Sturdy. So I talk to my wife about this, and she asks to see info on the sturdy safe - and the website has some buxom babe draped all over the safes. All credibility out the window with my wife. Go figure. For such a serious product I wish that kind of advertising wasn't used - it's not even necessary.:fire:

Tomorrow's a new day - I am going to call my lock & safe dealer and tell them that what they are offering isn't going to work for me and my needs - see if I can get out of the deal. I am sorry I gave him 50% down on it, and I hope I am not out the money. I feel it was misrepresented, but either way I have too many concerns now. I've tried to feel okay about it, but I can't. I honestly believed it would be higher security than it is.

I don't really want a Amsec BF either - it may be a few marks better, but it's still just a weak sheet metal box, 1/2" door and poured mixture in consideration.

If I can get a sturdy I will, otherwise, I'll be shopping for a used TL30 or better SAFE (not RSC). I can make my own fire insulation with fire rated sheetrock if I have to. If I did that with the sturdy it'd be the same cost to curbside as the franklin.

I had dreams last night of using my tin snips on some air-ducts, and my wife nagging me about my lousy RSC purchase. Despite thinking about the real security concerns, it's just not a purchase I can live with.

Thanks for all the advice, I just wish I'd checked here before giving the deposit.

Merry Xmas!

:banghead:

RainDodger
December 25, 2012, 08:40 PM
Do not worry - what you did is far better than using a closet. Any safe is just going to slow someone down.... take a look on youtube and you'll see people getting into safes you would think are impregnable. I think most of us are concerned with keeping marauding crackheads or kids away from our guns. For those concerned with more than that, they likely spend a lot more money than most of us do.

mikechandler
December 26, 2012, 01:08 PM
Well, it's all over now. There was no getting my deposit back, but he did a swap for me this morning, to a Winchester Legacy 53 - 2.5 hour fire rating, 10ga steel body, twenty 2" bolts, and a 1/4" hard plate in the door, pry resistant tabs on the corners. I know that 10ga steel can be pierced with the pike of a fire axe, but it would be LOUD as all heck doing that, and a really slow process. Plus it's going insude a closet anyway, backed up against my living room's fireplace, where they won't have much swing or pry room. I think it's enough steel content for me to get some sleep again. I'll have a motion detector and door sensor installed on the closet, and upgrade the door and lock. The new safe is 1650 lbs so it won't be moved easily, and will be bolted down anyway. My drills, bits, and crowbars (what little stuff I have of that type) will be kept inside the safe.

I'm done worrying about this - and thank you everybody for your input; for future posterity I am glad we laid out the real differences in all these safes, and my advice to anybody else coming down this path - BUY A STURDY SAFE, I only wish that I'd known all of this before putting down a load of cash.

SilentStalker
December 26, 2012, 01:35 PM
^^^Why so high and mighty on the Sturdy? I am not bashing, I am just genuinely curious as I am in the market myself. I really like the security standard or build quality of the Sturdy, but dislike the no frills aspect of it. I mean I am not buying it for looks LOL but for it to look better than just a big metal box would add something for the wife. I also like the inside door panel offered on some others such as the Liberty's. I guess my point here is that even though Sturdy seems to be the ticket they are 100% no frills.

Cesiumsponge
December 26, 2012, 01:46 PM
Griffin safe is another alternative. The boltwork design is fantastic, as the safe was designed by a SAVTA member. The door is 1/4" plate plus two more 1/8" steel layers with a total of 1.5" of concrete. The body is an inner and outer 10ga shell with a concrete aggregate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBVUDCicerA

In any case, a 2" diameter gun safe bolt is for looks. It's usually very short and bolted to a flimsy piece of angle iron. It's this angled bar that bends in a pry attack. Real commercial safes can get away with a few 1-1.5" bolts because they're recessed into a solid steel plate frame or pocket.

It's all marketing. If you look at the video with the Griffin line, you'd see the carrier bar attaches on top of full-length bolts. You'd have to bend the actual door back as the bolts aren't going to give. With the various failed RSC photos floating around, the bolts and frame gave in a pry attack, never the door itself, even if the doors are relatively thin in construction.

heeler
December 26, 2012, 02:09 PM
Wow,I dont know what to think of this.
First the OP picks a Liberty Franklin gun safe that's pretty good but certainly not the best.
Takes all kinds of bogus info as the gospel from a gun safe sales guy.
Bashes the Amsec BF.
Screams aloud that the Sturdy is the way to go...
And then buys a Chinese made spot welded Winchester.
You would have been better off with the original Liberty than the Winchester.

Cesiumsponge
December 26, 2012, 02:29 PM
Three-minute attack with shown hammer on spot welded sheet metal
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8262226265_3b3c2c27e1_o.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8076/8262226639_cb10ba5f23_b.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8081/8263294608_7669757f8e_o.jpg

a1abdj
December 26, 2012, 08:36 PM
Wow,I dont know what to think of this.
First the OP picks a Liberty Franklin gun safe that's pretty good but certainly not the best.
Takes all kinds of bogus info as the gospel from a gun safe sales guy.
Bashes the Amsec BF.
Screams aloud that the Sturdy is the way to go...
And then buys a Chinese made spot welded Winchester.
You would have been better off with the original Liberty than the Winchester.

Welcome to my every day world. :D

mikechandler
December 26, 2012, 10:59 PM
Wow,I dont know what to think of this.
First the OP picks a Liberty Franklin gun safe that's pretty good but certainly not the best.
Takes all kinds of bogus info as the gospel from a gun safe sales guy.
Bashes the Amsec BF.
Screams aloud that the Sturdy is the way to go...
And then buys a Chinese made spot welded Winchester.
You would have been better off with the original Liberty than the Winchester.

I give up. I guess that shows why NOT to ask on a gun forum. It's a bit like this:

Hey look, I bought a Glock 19mm!
Wow, welcome to the cheap plastic pistol world, sell out!

Okay I traded the glock for a S&W 686, whatdya think?
Nice gun... too bad it doesn't have a magazine.

Okay, I got rid of the 686 and got a Beretta 92fs!
Can you even get your hand around that humongous grip? Did you get one of the ones that can crack their frame? You should have got a 1911.

Okay guys, How did I do? I just bought a Springfield Champion 1911!
Well, now you are carrying a made in brazil gun, it's okay... but you should have ante'd up for a Springer TRP or better yet a Dan Wesson Valor!

Hey all, after a great struggle, I put together the money, and traded in my Springfield for a Dan Wesson Valor!
Nice 1911 - almost as reliable as a Glock, at three times the weight. Have you checked out Glock yet? Really great guns for the money...

Or something along those lines.

---- I give up. I should just sell my Ar15s and stop worrying about a bigger safe, my handguns are fine in my burglary C rated safe with 1" plate door and sides.

cbpagent72
December 27, 2012, 12:41 AM
I don't know why Study gets so much press. Look at the Summit Denali safe line. All of the new safes have 7 gauge steel bodies and a thick door, I believe it is a 1/2" and they are made in Provo, UT. You can get all that and a gloss paintjob for about $2800.

http://www.summitsafes.com/denali.html

If that doesn't have enough protection they also sell the Summit Everest which is a class B safe. 1/4" steel body and 3/4" steel plate door.

http://www.summitsafes.com/everest_ex.html

I just can't get over how Sturdy safes just look like an old gym locker with that paint job. I am also a bit leery of how well the Sturdy safes perform when it comes to fire. They have a million videos showing how hard their safe is to break into but not one video showing how well their safes perform in a fire test doesn't anyone in here wonder why? They obviously like to make videos so do a controlled test in a 1200 degree industrial oven with temperature modules inside the safe.

Many safe companies show photos/videos of claimed fire damage without giving any specifics or third party reports. There are too many variables to consider, size or house, construction materials of house, placement of safe in the house, temperature of fire and the length of time that temperature was maintained.

This is for the OP, I found a cool video showing a 100' drop test comparison between a US made Liberty Franklin and a Chinese made Winchester (you can see the Winchester name that they painted over) safe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT-Jr4ZNALw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2

mikechandler
December 27, 2012, 01:58 AM
Wow the summit specs are incredibly good:
1/2" Solid Double Step Door
3/16" Body
1 1/2" Bolts
Up to 4 Layers of Fire Protection
4-way Bolts
5-pt Handle, Black Chrome Trim Standard
Gloss & Textured Colors Available
Weighs 1700 lbs.
50"x72"x28", 30.5" with handle
Elegant External Hinge
Smoothest Gear Drive in the industry
1500 Degree/2 Hour Fire Rating
LED Lighting system standard
Standard Door Accessory Panel

Are they continuous welded? I never heard of these - according to the website they are made in Utah.

So, everybody - what's the weakest point on the summit?

cbpagent72
December 27, 2012, 02:07 AM
I called the company and spoke to the owner James and he told me that they are US made and the welding is continuous, they do not spot weld. He was a real straight shooter he told me the pros and cons of his safes and left the decision to me. He didn't hard sell me at all, I almost bought a BF6030 and ended up buying a Denali in cherry gloss. James stated that the Summit safe line is made by Champion in Provo, UT to the specs that Summit provides. They use a solid 1/2" of steel around the door frame so the bolts are not only being locked into a 7 gauge body.

From my understanding Champion also makes Superior Safes at the Provo facility.

http://superiorgunsafes.com/

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2

leadcounsel
December 27, 2012, 02:34 AM
I want a pretty safe. Blec.

Not me. I want a safe that will do it's job. I don't care if it looks like puke.

For me, I bought a Sturdy safe with thick steel (I forget the dimensions, but it's all on their website). It's fire resistant, professional grade lock, and very thick steel. I seem to recall that both of them were about $1500 apiece a few years ago. Maybe the price of steel went up since then. Don't know and don't care enough to look. I just know that I did exhaustive searches and they were the best, using the best techniques, and made in America. Not Chinese imports. I also think I saved a few hundred on my second one getting a factory "second" that had a very minor blemish on the backside where the steel was not perfect (totally cosmetic).

As far as the girl on the Sturdy website, that's the owners daughter who is in the modeling business, but is also in the sales department and very knowledgable about safes, as I understand it. She posts here from time to time. Her name is Alyssa.

I'm not the only satisfied Sturdy Safe owners on the web:
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=46&t=346128

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-572845.html

http://ingunowners.com/forums/accessories_and_gear/87877-sturdy_safe_arrived.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpnU8ZKRIEs

Total burn down of a house with the Sturdy Safe and contects surviving, video of the burn down and pictures from the surviving safe contents (money, guns, etc).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CboBAf597uU
http://www.sturdysafe.com/fireliner.htm

Break in resistance of Sturdy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oOqDHedivQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9FslzOGzqw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRwbgNHkJ8Y

If I were in the market for another safe, my STARTING POINT would be Sturdy, and a company would have to beat their product/value (by a long shot) to earn my business.

2nd 41
December 27, 2012, 06:57 AM
choosing a safe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltK-bDbADa8

heeler
December 27, 2012, 07:33 AM
Mike...I am not trying to come off as a prick in this thread and was actually pretty supportive of your first choice when others were implying you got hosed.
The Franklin is a pretty decent gun safe but certainly not the best for the money.
The Winchester,not so much in my opinion.
I still am saying the sales guy has given you some false information.
Unfortunately you placed a large deposit of money with him and now are in the position of choosing what he sells before you did a lot of research on gun safes.
Hey,I made the same mistake on my first gun safe,which was buying before researching.

So,in the end the above mentioned Presidential,Amsec BF,Summit,and Sturdy are all great gun safes and placed in a strategic strong point that does not allow a prying attack to get started and the safe is bolted down(key word here) these will handily prevent most residential burglars from entering the inside.
But what they will not do is hold up against a concentrated attack with power tools.
So unless a person blabs to the world that they own a XYZ gun safe,this kind of attack is quite remote in a residential burglary unless your the kind of guy that keeps Sawzalls,sledge hammers,carbide saws,etc. laying around.
Good luck.

Cesiumsponge
December 27, 2012, 08:37 AM
Comparing different types of guns is an apples to oranges comparison. Different guns serve different purposes. Comparing different metal boxes designed to stop burglars is an apples to apples comparison. A safe serves just one purpose.

This discussion has also left out Griffin Safes. The designer is a SAVTA member, Mike Griffin. His products have been approved by the DEA. They make an entry-level safe with sheetrock fire liner, but with massive boltwork to prevent a successful pry attack. Their upper line uses a 1/4" plate steel door with another two layers of 1/8" steel on the door and a total of 1.5" of poured concrete on the door and a cumulative 1/2" thickness. The body uses two 10ga shells (over 1/4" cumulative) filled with concrete barrier between. The only other gun safe companies that use a commercial concrete barrier design is American Security's BF and TL-15/TL-30 line, Brown Safe, and Graffunder Safe.

He shows boltwork on all the safes he compares.

Skip to 3:22 to see the Griffin's entry level safe.
Seven minutes in, he shows his line of commercial safe, retrofitted with a gun safe interior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBVUDCicerA

A distributor doing a similar comparison of entry level safes and the two Griffin lines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlDx7C8BHdg

a1abdj
December 27, 2012, 09:47 AM
A distributor doing a similar comparison of entry level safes and the two Griffin lines

Not that it matters a whole lot, but because I like to nitpick :D

Mike is the distributor, not the manufacturer, and the design already existed although he did make several changes. Himself, and a few others of us, sell them nationwide. He's on the East Coast, I'm in the Midwest, and there's another one up North. The manufacturer was selling them themselves in the West, but wasn't doing a very good job. I'm also a SAVTA member, and I believe the gentleman up north is as well.

The safes usually do not have a name attached, and have a few different logos on the door depending on where you're getting it from.

Cesiumsponge
December 27, 2012, 10:51 AM
Thanks for the info correction. Does the manufacturer have a sales contact for us west coasters? The more choices people are aware of, the better. Saves a ton on shipping too.

mikechandler
December 27, 2012, 01:35 PM
I don't know why Study gets so much press. Look at the Summit Denali safe line. All of the new safes have 7 gauge steel bodies and a thick door, I believe it is a 1/2" and they are made in Provo, UT. You can get all that and a gloss paintjob for about $2800.

http://www.summitsafes.com/denali.html

If that doesn't have enough protection they also sell the Summit Everest which is a class B safe. 1/4" steel body and 3/4" steel plate door.

http://www.summitsafes.com/everest_ex.html

I just can't get over how Sturdy safes just look like an old gym locker with that paint job. I am also a bit leary of how well the Sturdy safes perform when it comes to fire. They have a million videos showing how hard their safe is to break into but not one video showing how well their safes perform in a fire test doesn't anyone in here wonder why? They obviously like to make videos so do a controlled test in a 1200 degree industrial oven with temperature modules inside the safe.

This is for the OP, I found a cool video showing a 100' drop test comparison between a US made Liberty Franklin and a Chinese made Winchester (you can see the Winchester name that they painted over) safe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT-Jr4ZNALw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2

Is that test really fair? I did this math using drop of 30M (100') on this calculator (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/flobi.html)

Winchester Legacy:
Weight: 748kg
KE: 213150 joules
Impact Force: 2199119 Newtons

Franklin Liberty:
Weight 453kg
KE 133182 joules
Impact Force: 1331820 Newtons

A difference of 867,299 Newtons impact force, or 194,000 pounds-force difference

cbpagent72
December 27, 2012, 01:49 PM
I honestly do not know which model of Winchester they used. Both safes appear to be comparable in size. We know they used the middle of the road Liberty Franklin and if I had to guess it would be the Franklin 25 with an empty weight of 660lbs. I would assume that they used a lower end or middle end Winchester safe since they specify it is Chinese made safe. From what I have researched the higher end Winchester safes are made in the US by Granite Safe Co. I am guessing that they used the Ranger Deluxe 31 which has an empty weight of 685lbs.

The Winchester Legacy Premier 26 (965 lbs) would have to be compared to the Liberty Presidential 25 (985 lbs) to be fair.

heeler
December 27, 2012, 01:52 PM
The Winchester Legacy I recently looked at(three weeks ago) was made in Red China.

cbpagent72
December 27, 2012, 02:02 PM
Even though you can get better deals on Chinese made products, I refuse to buy Chinese products if I can get the equivalent product that is made in the US. Some items like electronics you just can't avoid buying Chinese made products but with safes you do have a choice. If I had tons of money I would have bought the US made AMSEC RF6528 TL30 gun safe.

rondog
December 27, 2012, 02:39 PM
That drop test was cool, but they needed a couple of stuffed Wile E. Coyote dolls to drop them on.....maybe paint ACME on the Chinese safe too.

The whole debate about gun safes makes my head hurt, so many choices and info. My whole gun collection isn't worth what some of these safes cost. Delivery and setup are a huge part of any purchase I may make, I can't do it myself and have nobody to help. So a big sale at a local store does me no good, I'd still have to hire some strangers to deliver it, and that's not a good idea.

If I'm ever able to buy one, I plan on a Liberty Franklin 50, for the size and height. My back won't go for a short safe, I need a tall one. And I know of a guy that's the highest volume Liberty dealer in Colorado with the best selection and prices in the state, who will deliver it to my house and into my garage for free. Bolting it down is just a little extra.

Mine would have to go in the garage, no place in the house or basement, and I doubt the stairs would hold up. And I have plans to build a wooden cabinet around the safe, so it just looks like a big storage cabinet to keep stuff in.

Cesiumsponge
December 27, 2012, 02:55 PM
The drop test of sheet metal boxes doesn't really mean anything for burglary protection. The UL fire test does a 30' drop to simulate falling through residential flooring, but its designed for that. Why not drop a safe from 200' or 1000'?

There is a safe company that promotes Liberty by testing it against dynamite and detcord which fail to open the safe. Does that make it equal to a TXTL-60x6 safe?

Marketing.

cbpagent72
December 27, 2012, 04:05 PM
I don't think any of the safes that we have discussed in this forum besides the AMSEC has a UL fire rating and maybe the Graffunder(website doesn't specify). From my understanding Sturdy doesn't, Summit doesn't, Superior doesn't, Liberty doesn't and Winchester doesn't. They all use different hokey third party certifying companies that you have never heard of. Which one is better, I am assuming they are all pretty much same. They are paid by the safe companies to provide the them with a fire rating that they can add to sales literature.

heeler
December 27, 2012, 04:16 PM
My take on fire protection on gun safes is it is better to have it because if there is a fire in the house there is always a chance the fire will be put out before it engulfs the room the safe is in and although temperatures will be damn high throughout the house the insulation,even the sheetrock insulation that most gun safes contain will help in a scenario that I described.
But even though theft protection was my main focus of my gun safe,fire was also a big consideration as well thus I chose the Amsec because I feel it provides the best protection in one package for my two mentioned concerns.

mikechandler
December 27, 2012, 04:24 PM
GREAT NEWS:

I have now exceeded the locksmith's patience; I called and asked questions about the welding, and told him I am not comfortable with the winchester.

The guy blew his top, saying he didn't have time for this kind of BS, to come get a check for my deposit tomorrow, it will be waiting for me. He is now refusing to sell me a safe. He was positively livid

:evil:

YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS - There's an amsec dealer in Mesa, I am on my way out the door!

cbpagent72
December 27, 2012, 04:32 PM
Cesiumsponge,

I just watched the Griffin safe video and I thought it was very informative. A text box popped up on the screen stating that his safe is the only gun safe approved by the DEA. That is kind of vague, does he mean that it is approved by the Agency for it's agents to store their government issued weapons or does the DEA actually approve it for the storage of narcotics? I am guessing that it is the first one not the last.

cbpagent72
December 27, 2012, 04:44 PM
mikechandler,

I was in your boat for the last few weeks and I decided against the AMSEC BF6030 because of the spot welding on the bottom of the safe as opposed to the continuous welding on the entire body of the Summit. I know that shouldn't be an issue because the safe should be bolted to the floor but here in Tucson pretty much every newer home has a post tension slab so you cannot drill into it without voiding your structural warranty. My logic was I would rather have a stronger made safe and I can live with the drywall fire-protection since the fire department is 5-10 minutes away and my monitored alarm system will trigger the response as soon as smoke is detected. If you really have some sensitive documents that cannot be lost to fire/heat I would use a safe deposit box. The firearms, safe, and the rest of the goodies will be covered by your insurance if you have proof and the added coverage for firearms.

I haven't received my Summit Denali yet, they have about a 12 week wait. I bought the safe through Jesse at Safe City in Mesa, AZ (he sells AMSEC, Summit, Ft. Knox, and Superior) he gave me a great price which included shipping and setting up in my house. I can personally recommend him. He has a used Summit Denali SD30 with black gloss paint for $2199 on his site:

http://www.azsafecityinc.com/USED-SAFES.html

mikechandler
December 27, 2012, 06:00 PM
mikechandler,

I was in your boat for the last few weeks and I decided against the AMSEC BF6030 because of the spot welding on the bottom of the safe as opposed to the continuous welding on the entire body of the Summit. I know that shouldn't be an issue because the safe should be bolted to the floor but here in Tucson pretty much every newer home has a post tension slab so you cannot drill into it without voiding your structural warranty. My logic was I would rather have a stronger made safe and I can live with the drywall fire-protection since the fire department is 5-10 minutes away and my monitored alarm system will trigger the response as soon as smoke is detected. If you really have some sensitive documents that cannot be lost to fire/heat I would use a safe deposit box. The firearms, safe, and the rest of the goodies will be covered by your insurance if you have proof and the added coverage for firearms.

I haven't received my Summit Denali yet, they have about a 12 week wait. I bought the safe through Jesse at Safe City in Mesa, AZ (he sells AMSEC, Summit, Ft. Knox, and Superior) he gave me a great price which included shipping and setting up in my house. I can personally recommend him. He has a used Summit Denali SD30 with black gloss paint for $2199 on his site:

http://www.azsafecityinc.com/USED-SAFES.html
Wow - that's the Amsec dealer, and said he loves the Amsec safes - but this one is just better - sturdier built, and a better locking mechanism. He has a special on the DS-50 - 44 x 72 x 30 1/2 - 1450 lbs - Denali for $3799, out the door including taxes, delivery, and installation! Half down and the other half on delivery - it's this one. (http://www.summitsafes.com/denali.html) Delivery in February 2013.

BEFORE I BLOW IT AGAIN - is there any reason not to grab this seemingly amazing deal? I did not commit to anything this time out.

:D

He's an Amsec dealer, If I could afford 2K more he'd recommend Fort Knox, which is better yet - but I can't go that high.

Cesiumsponge
December 27, 2012, 06:11 PM
I think the DEA narcotics lockers must be B-rate at minimum so the Griffin product doesn't qualify. There is another Griffin video which shows the DEA letters. Maybe its for weapon storage?

In any case, NO gun safe has a fire rating from the UL. Not even the Amsec, Brown, or Graffunder. Neither do any commercial burglary safes. I believe its because all safes have to be 100% identical to get a fire rating and burglary safes are randomized to some degree. I talked to Ralph Graffunder a while back and he expressed differently, but maybe things were different then and he hasn't been with the company in a while so perhaps UL protocols were different when they were considering the idea. For a short while, there was one safe I'm aware of that carried both a UL fire and UL burglary rating. It's an expensive process so unless you sell ungodly volumes or very expensive safes, its a burdensome expense. a1abdj could provide actual facts when he comes along.

heeler
December 27, 2012, 07:08 PM
It's a funny thing but I have in front of me a year 2000 Amsec catalogue and they say that their Sierra LX 60x30 passed UL's 30 minute 350 degree fire test.
The picture of the UL sticker says "Listed R18697 Fire Resistant Gun Safe".
I will let a1abdj comment on that deal because he might be able to shed more light on this issue.
This particular safe has a .25" body and it *might* represent one of Amsecs earlier pre BF model designs with superior cast cement fills for fire protection.

Mike that Summit is a pretty nice gun safe and pretty solid too.

a1abdj
December 27, 2012, 07:53 PM
Does the manufacturer have a sales contact for us west coasters? The more choices people are aware of, the better. Saves a ton on shipping too.

The manufacturer decided that they didn't want to be in the sales business (they weren't very good at it), and shut down their retail operations. All of the remaining inventory went to Mike.

I think the DEA narcotics lockers must be B-rate at minimum so the Griffin product doesn't qualify. There is another Griffin video which shows the DEA letters. Maybe its for weapon storage?


The fire and burglary gun safe would qualify as a B rate, although I have never clarified anything with Mike regarding the DEA information. When any of my customers want a narc locker, I sell them one of those instead of a gun safe. :D

You would actually be surprised what the DEA inspectors sign off on. The written rules, and what they find acceptable when they are there to sign off on things are two totally different things. When I get calls asking for these types of safes, I usually suggest that the caller contact the person handing their inspection and ask them what they'll accept.

NO gun safe has a fire rating from the UL.

That is currently correct to the best of my knowledge, but it hasn't always been that way:

I have in front of me a year 2000 Amsec catalogue and they say that their Sierra LX 60x30 passed UL's 30 minute 350 degree fire test.


Browning (Prosteel) also used to have an imported fire safe outfitted as a gun safe. I believe it had a 1 hour UL rating. It believe it was offered in the 90's.

Neither do any commercial burglary safes. I believe its because all safes have to be 100% identical to get a fire rating and burglary safes are randomized to some degree

There are a few that have both, but they are not very common. The reason you stated is why that is. In this case, just because it does not have a rating does not mean that it would not pass the test.

that Summit is a pretty nice gun safe and pretty solid too

I'm still waiting to see one in person. I had inquired about selling them at one point, but never got a response.

Cesiumsponge
December 27, 2012, 08:44 PM
Years ago, I was looking at a Meilink Gibraltar line which had both the UL TL-30 and (one or two) hour UL fire rating. I took another look last year and (besides a big price bump due to steel prices) it dropped the UL fire rating and replaced it with another third party lab. Probably same exact safe as before, but they save a few bucks in not having the UL fire tag. I'm also guessing commercial customers don't need a fire rating if the value of the contents are insured. Paper records would be another matter. Minimum expenses possible, no need to spend where its not needed.

I'd trust a burglary safe with an unrated concrete lcore over a gun safe with as many sheets of drywall as they want to stuff inside. I'm still unsure who started that fad.

mikechandler
December 27, 2012, 09:54 PM
I am really confused here guys - I was pretty sure that RSC fell between B rate and C rate chests. Is that not true? B rated chests are not much metal at all.. I have a gardall one with a 1/8" plate door, it's B burglary rated, and 1 hour 350 degree fire rated, I don't have a lot of confidence in it. I also have an unlabeled Amsec, either a BLC or DDE, not completely sure - but it's massive, and very confidence inspiring. I thought RSC fell between those two.

Edit: The Amsec is a BLC2018. The door is 1" thick plate and the walls are 1/2" plate.

a1abdj
December 27, 2012, 11:44 PM
I am really confused here guys - I was pretty sure that RSC fell between B rate and C rate chests. Is that not true? B rated chests are not much metal at all.. I have a gardall one with a 1/8" plate door, it's B burglary rated, and 1 hour 350 degree fire rated, I don't have a lot of confidence in it. I also have an unlabeled Amsec, either a BLC or DDE, not completely sure - but it's massive, and very confidence inspiring. I thought RSC fell between those two.


It can get quite confusing for people who don't deal with safes on a regular basis. This also includes other professionals like locksmiths.

The RSC "Residential Security Container" rating, is an actual UL rating. I don't believe it means a lot, but it does undergo a test. The safe has to last 5 minutes against prying devices (not to exceed 18") and hammers (not to exceed 18" or 5 pounds). Clock starts, safe is attacked for 5 minutes, if it's still closed in 5 minutes it passes.

To compare that to another UL rating that does mean something, let's look at a TL-15. This is a 15 minute rating against all hand tools, power tools, and pressure applying devices. There are no restrictions on tool sizes or weights. Those attacking the safe are professionals, with advance knowledge of the safe's design. The clock only runs while a tool is in contact with the safe. Let's say the clock starts, they drill on it for a minute, and the bit breaks. The clock is stopped, the bit is changed, and the clock starts when they continue to drill. The safe will fail if opened within 15 minutes of running clock time, or a 6 square inch hole can be placed through the door.

Here's what confuses people:

B rate, C rate, E rate, and F rate are really not ratings at all. There is no test performed on these safes. These designations are definitions issued by the ISO, and has to do with construction methods. These in turn are used to determine the theft risk factor.

Without getting too in depth, a B rate safe will have 1/4" worth of steel in the body, and 1/2" worth in the door. A C rate would have 1/2" worth in the body, and 1" in the door. An E rate is very similar to a TL-15 in construction, using a 1" body, and 1.5" door. A F rate would have the same 1" body, but a 1.5" laminate door.

Composite safes have thrown a bit of a monkey wrench into these definitions, but there are still ways to determine an equivalent level of protection.

mikechandler
December 28, 2012, 12:54 PM
To compare that to another UL rating that does mean something, let's look at a TL-15. This is a 15 minute rating against all hand tools, power tools, and pressure applying devices. There are no restrictions on tool sizes or weights. Those attacking the safe are professionals, with advance knowledge of the safe's design. The clock only runs while a tool is in contact with the safe. Let's say the clock starts, they drill on it for a minute, and the bit breaks. The clock is stopped, the bit is changed, and the clock starts when they continue to drill. The safe will fail if opened within 15 minutes of running clock time, or a 6 square inch hole can be placed through the door.


Thanks for the info - this means a TL15 or TL30 is much better than it sounds on the surface, as it doesn't include the time spent figuring out what to try next to get into the safe. I would expect that means a normal class thief would spend hours (or more likely just try to steal the safe), and only a true pro would get in - and possibly only if he knew that particular safe. All that being said, I think the Denali Summit will work for my purposes - I can't afford any safe that has a UL rating beginning with a TL!

Since every model safe has it's cons and pros, how wise is it to remove all identifying silk screens/logos/model information from the box? The locksmith that I purchased my Amsec BLC2018 from did exactly that - it's just a gray metal box with a lock and handle!

Why make it easy for them?

heeler
December 28, 2012, 01:03 PM
You want to see a true UL tested TL-30 safe go to you tube and type in Meilink Gibralter.
A TL30 safe would be quite hard to enter without the use of very powerful tools such as the air powered tools used in that video.

4v50 Gary
December 28, 2012, 04:54 PM
Got ducats? Go TL-60x6. That withstands sixty minutes of attack on any of its six sides. Of course, you must have ducats, lots and lots of ducats.

PTR_32
January 3, 2013, 09:50 PM
Thanks for the info - this means a TL15 or TL30 is much better than it sounds on the surface, as it doesn't include the time spent figuring out what to try next to get into the safe. I would expect that means a normal class thief would spend hours (or more likely just try to steal the safe), and only a true pro would get in - and possibly only if he knew that particular safe. All that being said, I think the Denali Summit will work for my purposes - I can't afford any safe that has a UL rating beginning with a TL!

Since every model safe has it's cons and pros, how wise is it to remove all identifying silk screens/logos/model information from the box? The locksmith that I purchased my Amsec BLC2018 from did exactly that - it's just a gray metal box with a lock and handle!

Why make it easy for them?

Very informative thread. Wow, Mike I think the best thing that could have happened is that safe salesmen telling you to take your deposit back. I've seen a Summit Denali before at a dealers and they are one solid gun safe. Congrats, sounds like you got a nice one.

myg30
January 4, 2013, 10:43 AM
Guys, I've enjoyed reading all this more than the morning paper. There is so much to learn and lots to think about when buying a security safe. As for fire, if the room provides, I think you cant go wrong building a double layer .750" sheet rock enclosure. This is for the ones who want to hide theirs.
So now.. Which model is best for protection when a crack head neighborhood punk has a $50 .22 at my wifes [or home alone child] head and wants her [or me] to open the $4000 safe they saw delivered thinking we had so much $$$ ?
It really is some thing to think about when a family member is home alone. I live in the country. They raid meth labs all over.

Mike, as another poster [ 1st page I think] said, if you dont tell, and no one knows what you have I think your good to go.
A local farmer was out feeding his cows and when he returned home, his front porch,window,door frame was tore up from the bolted down safe that was chained and pulled out of his home with a 4X4 pick up [ford I think] because some one knew where and what he had,and what he owned. A chevy would of sunk in the mud the sherifs said.

Just me .02 cents worth.

Mike

dmproske
January 4, 2013, 01:37 PM
Lol on that part. But yes that does happen. They will come out with a roll back wrecker and winch your bolted down safe out of the concrete floor and right onto the back of the truck and drive off before an officer is even dispatched. That's when its in the garage.
If in an interior room, and they have snorted enough dope, they will drag a chain through ur house and try to rip it out through walls ect. Plum near tear the house down to get your 2000 dollar safe out.

Jim Watson
January 4, 2013, 04:53 PM
Dont dither so long worrying about what the determined and well equipped thief can do that you don't get something to keep out the average crackhead.

Elkins45
January 4, 2013, 05:14 PM
I'm just curious here. Did the OP actually get his check back or did the dealer just threaten to give it back? He might have wised up the next day!

If you enjoyed reading about "Liberty Guns safes, did I blow it?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!