why hot loads?


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Scuba_Steve
December 23, 2012, 10:02 AM
I'm new to reloading and during my research I keep reading about people developing hot loads, especially in .44 and 10mm.

aside from hunting, I'm wondering what appeals is for hot loads. do some of you use them for purposes other than hunting or self defense?

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bluetopper
December 23, 2012, 10:06 AM
Hot loads? Do you mean loading above published data and above recommended pressures?

cfullgraf
December 23, 2012, 10:10 AM
Folks like hot loads for the same reason they like fast cars.

Scuba_Steve
December 23, 2012, 10:18 AM
^^^^^^^
this I can understand :)

tightgroup tiger
December 23, 2012, 10:20 AM
I'm wondering the same thing as Parasite also.

I generally only load mid to upper range for all my guns.
Just my preference, nothing more.

The only time I will load at or around min load is for short barreled revolvers for my wife. The odds of sticking a bullet in a snub from a light load isn't near as great as it is in 6"or 8"barrel. There are some bullseye recipes in one of my Lyman manuals that isn't recomended for use "longer barreled revolvers".

As far as my carry rounds, I shoot what I carry, and I don't carry light loads for self protection.

Old Fuff
December 23, 2012, 10:28 AM
In the case of handguns, some believe that which is the most powerful will also guarantee a certain stop in a shooting incident. This isn't necessarily true, but it's core to their thinking and acts somewhat like a security blanket.

(I can't hit the broadside of a barn at 10 feet, but the propwash from my super-load will knock the bad guy down.) :uhoh: :rolleyes:

Scuba_Steve
December 23, 2012, 10:29 AM
^^^^^
no, I didn't mean above recommended pressures. I was thinking in terms of hotter than factory rounds.

jaguarxk120
December 23, 2012, 10:33 AM
A load "Hotter" than factory is usually way above SAAMI recomended pressures.
Thats just foolish and will get the loader/shooter the Darwin Award sooner or later.

bluetopper
December 23, 2012, 10:47 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought just about all factory ammo in all calibers was loaded at or very close to max pressures. I know this is the case in 44 Mag, but 10mm may be different; never shot any.

kingmt
December 23, 2012, 11:32 AM
Depends on what you are calling factory. I have some 9mm FMJ that only go about 400 fps. I use 125xtp that need pushed above +P to open up.

627PCFan
December 23, 2012, 01:45 PM
A possilble reduction in shooter margin for error. Lighter bullets fly flatter and have less drop to a point. Another aspect is certain load/gun combos have different nodes and sometimes that is hot, and above hot, although more often than not this is not the case-

WYOMan
December 23, 2012, 02:01 PM
Some people may not have a little"Captain in em", but they seem to have a little "Elmer Keith" in em.

hentown
December 23, 2012, 02:13 PM
I've been reloading a long time, and I wonder the same thing myself. Unless one's hunting deer, etc., the ONLY reason I can think of for loading nuclear is to have something to post about on forums like this! :rolleyes:

56hawk
December 23, 2012, 02:54 PM
What's the point of having a 44 Magnum or 10mm if you aren't going to load it hot?

bds
December 23, 2012, 02:57 PM
the ONLY reason I can think of for loading nuclear is to have something to post about on forums like this!
Sometimes those posts go like this ... "Funny thing happened at the range today" :D

I reserve known once-fired brass for max loads and typically use mid-to-high range load data for mixed range brass with unknown reload history. YMMV

buck460XVR
December 23, 2012, 03:11 PM
What's the point of having a 44 Magnum or 10mm if you aren't going to load it hot?


"Hot" is a relative term. To some it means max loads, to some it means above max. Most factory loads are not loaded to max, but are at just below and lower so they are safe to shoot in ALL firearms. Some folks feel the need to load to max and above because they feel their firearm is inadequate for the intended purpose. I load for accuracy, and whether or not the most accurate load is hot or not does not matter. If I hit the boiler room with a medium velocity .44 mag and a proper bullet, I have a dead animal. If I don't hit the boiler room with a super hot .44 or any other caliber....odds are I have a wounded animal. Instead of loading a caliber hot to make it something it isn't, one should just move up in caliber and load appropriately.

Edarnold
December 23, 2012, 03:28 PM
I'm new to reloading and during my research I keep reading about people developing hot loads, especially in .44 and 10mm.

aside from hunting, I'm wondering what appeals is for hot loads. do some of you use them for purposes other than hunting or self defense?
In the specific case of the 10mm Auto, ammunition from the Big 3 makers are loaded to well below the capabilities of the cartridge. There is little point in accepting the cost and gun selection for this cartridge and accepting .40 S&W ballistics. That doesn't mean using fullbore loads all the time: for paper punching I use 180gr FMJ bullets at 1050fps., which in a full size steel gun is a pussycat. Full charge such as 155gr at 1400fps. is not over pressure in a properly designed pistol will full chamber support.

56hawk
December 23, 2012, 03:55 PM
"Hot" is a relative term. To some it means max loads, to some it means above max. Most factory loads are not loaded to max, but are at just below and lower so they are safe to shoot in ALL firearms. Some folks feel the need to load to max and above because they feel their firearm is inadequate for the intended purpose.

He did say keeping it within recommended pressures. I load all my magnum rounds to book max, and sometimes above if it is obvious that the book load is well below SAAMI max. I try to keep below SAAMI max though.

gamestalker
December 23, 2012, 03:56 PM
To load above SAAMI max would compare to driving a car that has bald tires at 120 mph, sooner or later something bad is going to happen. So no, I don't load hot if this is the analogy your applying. But since I load exclusively with JHP's and slow burning powder for all my handguns, I push them as high velocity as the data and cartridge will safely support. In other words, if I'm not seeing any signs of excessive pressures, I'll continue increasing the powder charge. To some this would be referred to as hot loading, or hot rodding.

However, I have been known to work up slow burning powders to above published data in my high powered rifle cartridges, but that's a slightly different story. "Slow burning powders" and high powered rifle will allow one to safely "work up" to well over the published data in many cartridges, but the key words here are "work up" and "slow burning powder".
GS

NWcityguy2
December 23, 2012, 04:45 PM
Hot and fast aren't interchangeable terms either. A fast powder and a slow powder can both be loaded to maximum published load data, safely I might add, and give completely different levels of velocity and recoil. Following that logic there is nothing unsafe about exceeding factory velocities. A lot of that stuff isn't even loaded for the purpose of maximizing velocity, instead being loaded to a velocity the factory feels bests suits the needs of the shooter. Some companies load strictly for maximizing velocity or muzzle energy but not everyone does.

I think someone people become over cautious as well and start confusing book max with hot, which is silly. There are a variety of reasons to either use a maximum load or a reduced load, but if you know how to reload and are shooting a modern firearm then safety isn't actually one of them (even if you think it is).

ranger335v
December 23, 2012, 05:07 PM
"I was thinking in terms of hotter than factory rounds. "

Well, as explained above, what's 'hot' varies and may not obtain higher speeds anyway.

Most guns, including handguns, can survive hotter than "max" SAAMI pressures without coming apart - for awhile; that's what proof loads are all about. Loading hot tends to attract half-arsed loaders who are sure their weapons are stronger than others and want to think they know better than all the more cautious experts. What real experts know is that the pressure to obtain small speed increases beyond normal is not linear. Powders are made to burn best - most consistantly - in the normal pressure range for their intended use. It may take a 20% increase in pressure to obtain another 3-5% of speed. That extra pressure can be twitchy from round to round; proof powders are NOT what we buy at the store, those powders are made to burn consistantly at much higher test pressures. Meaning, what may be 'safe' for one of us (only meaning the gun has held together) for ninety nine shots by over loading a standard canister powder may not be safe on shot one hundred!

Small increments of speed are pointless in application anyway; a check of Hornady's ballistic tables or a ballistic program will show what a tiny effective difference another 100 fps from a handgun or 200 fps from a rifle means so the only real gain from deliberatly pounding our weapons into an early grave - and maybe ourselves too - is just a warm fuzzy dum azz self image based on a fallacy of being 'smarter' than other reloaders.

IMHO, of course. OMMV.

Nasty Ned
December 24, 2012, 12:04 AM
Overloading is unnecessary and dangerous. I have a friend who loaded his 22-250 so hot the bullets burned up before getting to the 100 yard target. That is rediculous.

Loading to the listed max is ok if you work up to it. All guns are not made equal, so use ultimate caution when going hot. Your vision or life may depend on it.

1SOW
December 24, 2012, 01:28 AM
In many or most pistol loads, the hottest possible load is NOT the most accurate load.

The absolute hottest load may be able to reach an "orbit", but it may be orbiting the wrong planet.

918v
December 24, 2012, 01:41 AM
I load for accuracy. Sometimes a given combo needs to be hot.

10 Spot Terminator
December 24, 2012, 01:46 AM
The only instances that I personally have loaded a couple of times above max recommended published loads is where a certain firearm is deemed to handle higher pressures and the cartridge itself is designed to handle the higher pressure loads. Such cases in point would be the old venerable .32-20 where it was progated long ago as a universal pistol and rifle load and the published data is very low to accomodate use in all firearms both old and new where some old firearms were too weak to handle stronger loads. A few lever guns as well as bolt action firearms were made to handle loads well above standard. Another example would be for certain older military firearms such as the Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R where the bore diameters varied as did the construction of the firearms rendering some of them strong and some weak. If you have a good one checked by a reputable gun smith here too you can push the envelope .

***** In any of these cases or similar cases you always start well below max published load parameters and work up slowly monitoring signs of increase in pressures and if they arise reduce your loads accordingly *****

gamestalker
December 24, 2012, 01:54 AM
What Ranger335V said is so true, in that, with few exceptions the degree of gained velocity beyond a certain point becomes so small that the only real noticable accomplishment is unnecessary wasting of powder, and loss of potential accuracy, not to mention an early grave for the poor firearm. This is the primary reason as a reloader why I use a load developement process, or work up, as it were, to find that sweet spot for that specific frearm.

GS

ArchAngelCD
December 24, 2012, 01:57 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought just about all factory ammo in all calibers was loaded at or very close to max pressures. I know this is the case in 44 Mag, but 10mm may be different; never shot any.
I have to disagree most factory ammo is loaded to Max pressures. Sure, designer ammo like Buffalo Bore and Cor-Bon are loaded up near the pressure limits but mainstream companies like Winchester, Remington, Federal and the like load nowhere near the limits. The loads they do produce that are near max pressures they mark +P and charge you more for giving you what they should in the first place.

IMO the 10mm is on death roe because it's not loaded to it's full potential. The original loads were much "hotter" than any factory ammo on the market today. If you want real 10mm ammo you have to load it yourself. For the most part the same is true for the 44 Magnum although the 44 Magnum is probably loaded closer to it's potential than the 10mm is.

41 Mag
December 24, 2012, 06:51 AM
I will have to go along with ArchAngelCD on this as well. When I started loading for my revolvers some 30yrs back, most of the factory loads I got were not up to the same potential as what the loads listed in manuals would achieve. That was one of the main reason I began to load my own.

There were a couple of companies like Winchester who DID load certain boxes up to the full potential, and Remington did so as well with some calibers but in only one or two loads. But overall most were sadly lacking.

One only needs to work up to the H-110 loads listed in most manuals to find out the full differences between factory and the true potential of a .357 or 41,44 magnum rounds. As for the 10mm, yep the original loads hitting 1300+ fps with 170 and 1200fps with 200gr bullets are something to touch off. I shoot them in my 10mm regularly with an ample load of AA-9 under 180gr Gold Dots. That said I have an extra 2" of barrel on mine so hitting the same velocities with similar loads isn't quite as hard.

With more and more of my loads however I am reverting back to medium powered handloads basically due to moving to cast bullets. I have found as many before that with proper alloy the accuracy and performance is as good or in most cases better than when I use jacketed loads. This ins't to say I still do not have plenty of the top end loads and can easily go from one to the other, but I am playing with new toys now and the need for me to drive them fast simply isn't there.

ranger335v
December 24, 2012, 06:24 PM
Back at my old gun club in '65 a self deluded new young hot shot got into reloading. I was present when he asked the club's premier old hand for tips on finding the hottest possible reloads. Ol' dude looked at him without expression and carefully said, "Start low and work up in half grain increments until the gun blows, then back off a full grain"; then he just walked away from the dummy. Now I'M the old dude; guess what I say...

Fishslayer
December 25, 2012, 01:45 AM
In many or most pistol loads, the hottest possible load is NOT the most accurate load.


This has been my experience. My "Big Dog" .357 Magnum load is comfortably below maximum but makes a satisfying boom & flash with a manly kick to it while being plenty accurate in everything I've shot it out of. :D

NWcityguy2
December 25, 2012, 01:44 PM
If you don't have equipment to measure chamber pressure you are just speculating on what factory ammo is and isn't. There is no accurate way to use recoil or velocity as a measuring stick when you are dealing with an unknown powder. A 90% load of 2400 or AA#9 will recoil more than a 100% load of W231 in .357 magnum. And saying that pressure does not equal recoil or velocity is just sticking to the basics. I could mention that there are economical reasons to use faster powders which don't deliver full velocity as well, but I won't ;).

GP100man
December 25, 2012, 01:57 PM
I`ve not shot a factory round of centerfire ammo in 15yrs so I have little to say `bout saami standards except the equipment they use now is way ahead of the ole copper crusher method .!!!

I hand load to make shooting more comfortable for me & my guns

Hotrodding loads is a phase we all go thru , most survive , but not all firearms !

Clark
December 25, 2012, 02:11 PM
There is the hot car analogy.
Probably driving fast is even better.
Climbing mountains would be another.
My favorite is handling poisonous snakes.

In all cases, I think there is a high degree of correlation to testosterone.

Stuart Smiley, Mr Rogers, and Rahm Emanuel would NOT load hot.

Hank Williams Jr, Brock Samson, and Ted Nugent would load hot.
http://youchew.net/wiki/images/a/a7/BrockSamson.jpeg

Hondo 60
December 25, 2012, 03:18 PM
Hot loads, driving very fast, same reasons.

Just cuz they can.

Fat_46
December 25, 2012, 04:11 PM
Sometimes I get the best accuracy by loading a bit above posted maximums. My Howa in 204 seems to really shine with a few 10th of a grain more than max. And my 260 prairie dog gun REALLY loves 1.2 grains more than max. That being said, there have been zero pressure related signs that I'm pushing the limits of the gun. Primers look good, bolt lift is normal, and I've loaded some of these cases 5 times without any cracking.

Start with published data, ladder test, and watch for the signs. If your gun shoots it well, and you don't see any issues, let 'er buck.

NWcityguy2
December 25, 2012, 04:35 PM
There is no magic about getting accuracy "just below max load". Max load changes over time (as do some powders), is different from manual to manual and yeilds different pressures in different chambers, using different primers, different amounts of crimp and OALs.

ranger335v
December 26, 2012, 02:21 PM
"There is no magic about getting accuracy "just below max load"."

That's true, it's just another bit of 'conventional wisdom' BS. When I can't obtain the accuracy I want in the right velocity range for my cartridge I change powders.

Ky Larry
December 26, 2012, 03:38 PM
Darwin Award Competition.

Clark
December 26, 2012, 04:54 PM
Ky Larry

Darwin Award Competition.

Wimpy loads mean only ~ 10% reduction in range.
That is hardly enough to weed out all the wimpy loaders from the gene pool.

Bovice
December 26, 2012, 06:24 PM
To some, loading hot means loading to full spec.

If you aren't loading 10mm to true 10mm specs, you might as well shoot .40S&W because it's cheaper.

ranger335v
December 26, 2012, 07:25 PM
Everyone to his own definitions but matching SAAMI specifications seems 'normal' to me so a hot charge would be something done with the goal of exceeding normal.

CraigC
December 27, 2012, 12:33 PM
Sometimes it has nothing to do with testosterone, compensating for your deficient manhood, thrill seeking, proving Darwin right or any of the other crap that has been posted. Sometimes what you want is to explore the potential of a cartridge unfairly hindered with a low pressure limit. Like the 8x57, .32-20, .38-40, .44-40, .44Spl and .45Colt. Because personally, I would just rather hunt varmints and small game with a wonderful Browning 53 .32-20 than a new Savage .22Hornet and handloading beyond standard pressures allows me to do this.

The .44Spl in a wonderful little 37oz custom mid-frame Ruger flat-top is usually all I need and more.

Same for the .38-40 and .44-40 in a Winchester 1892.

Or the .45Colt in a large frame Ruger, custom five-shot or Freedom Arms 83.

Or virtually any 8x57JS.

None of which are equivalent to driving fast because the data is available and it is well proven. Some are just afraid to stray from the herd without their momma there to wipe their chin. :p

buck460XVR
December 29, 2012, 11:17 AM
Some are just afraid to stray from the herd without their momma there to wipe their chin. :p

Could be because many that feel the need to stray from the herd end up dead. Especially the young and inexperienced.

I consider anything "hot", as above the normal specs. This applies not only to ammo but cars and motorcycles. Anything within SAAMI specs would not be "hot" in my opinion. I remember back in the seventies when folks "hot-rodded" VW Beetles and Corvairs. Put turbos on them, bored them and put big fat tires on them. Revved their engines at stop and go lights and challenged Pinto and Gremlin drivers to a race. Altho they were a little faster, they were still VW Beetles and Corvairs. Just like some folks that feel the need to "hot-rod" their ammo to make a firearm they feel is inadequate into something it is not. While making the most outta what you have is prudent, trying to make a VW Beetle into a Porsch ain't gonna happen.

35 Whelen
December 29, 2012, 12:14 PM
Overloading is unnecessary and dangerous. I have a friend who loaded his 22-250 so hot the bullets burned up before getting to the 100 yard target. That is rediculous.

Loading to the listed max is ok if you work up to it. All guns are not made equal, so use ultimate caution when going hot. Your vision or life may depend on it.

Your friend didn't necessarily load his 22-250 too hot, but likely he used the wrong bullets. Most bullet manufacturers make .22 caliber bullets with thin jackets that are designed to give explosive expansion in "slower" .22 caliber rifles such as the .222 Rem., .223, etc. (Sierra Blitz, et al). These bullets will vaporize at "normal" 22-250 velocities, 220 Swift velocities, etc. I've run .22 caliber bullets well over 4000 fps in my 220 Swift and they held together fine.

Some people feel they need to always get the last fps out of their handloads; I used to be one of those people until I realized that in the real world of hunting a shooting an extra 100-200 fps doesn't make much difference.

I still sometimes work up max loads though. For examaple I recently acquired a couple of Uberti .44 Specials and have been piddling with a 250 gr. SWC at a little over 1100 fps because I just like to know what the cartridge/pistol combo is capable of. MY every day carry load is the same bullet running a little over 800 fps.

35W

CraigC
December 29, 2012, 01:05 PM
Could be because many that feel the need to stray from the herd end up dead.
I'm not talking about wandering around in the dark. SAAMI is not a God-like, omnipotent entity. There are other sources of well-proven information and I should not have to be telling you this.

35 Whelen
December 29, 2012, 01:25 PM
I'm not talking about wandering around in the dark. SAAMI is not a God-like, omnipotent entity. There are other sources of well-proven information and I should not have to be telling you this.
^^^^^ This.

I swear, todays handloaders have become a community of fear-mongering, hand wringing, sniveling worryworts afraid to try anything that hasn't already been proven.

If you're happy with your under maximum handloads, excellent, I'm happy for you. But if someone wants to experiment with theirs, within reason, I applaud them.

I'd bet the farm that the same folks who chastise handloaders for experimenting on the fringe, think NOTHING of driving a 5000 lb. vehicle 70 mph while talking or worse yet texting on their phones. Guess which is most likely to get you AND someone else killed?

35W

CraigC
December 29, 2012, 03:31 PM
Amen brother!

buck460XVR
December 29, 2012, 05:37 PM
I'm not talking about wandering around in the dark. SAAMI is not a God-like, omnipotent entity. There are other sources of well-proven information and I should not have to be telling you this.


No, but SAAMI specs and published reloading manuals are the closest thing to a bible that handloaders have. They are there for a reason and for that same reason is why ammo and firearm manufacturers follow them. While I know in recent years some specs have been softened, they are still something responsible handloaders respect and use. Their guidelines, while maybe not cast in stone, are guidelines that keep our sport safe. As we both know, safety is paramount with reloading. I may not need to be told about the "other" sources of "well proven" information, but maybe other readers of this thread, like the young and inexperienced I mentioned before, could benefit from this knowledge.




I swear, todays handloaders have become a community of fear-mongering, hand wringing, sniveling worryworts afraid to try anything that hasn't already been proven.

If you're happy with your under maximum handloads, excellent, I'm happy for you. But if someone wants to experiment with theirs, within reason, I applaud them.



It always amazes me that some feel the need for derogatory adjectives and name calling when trying to make an argument to support their opinion, and yet we call this "The High Road". You can take this to the bank 35W, everything to do with handloading for existing cartridges, has already been proven. While I have no problem with folks that feel the need to push the envelope with their own firearms, knowing full well the risks involved, I do have a major problem with chest pounders making blanket statements on the internet that it is safe and appropriate for everyone. To belittle folks that stay within the parameters of responsible reloading is only asking for an accident to happen. If you are as experienced and knowledgeable in handloading as you want us to believe, you know as well as I do, that some newbie, after reading rants on the internet about over max loads being perfectly safe, and one is a drooling worrywart, afraid to leave mamma to not at least try them, is gonna do just that. Maybe you want to applaud that newbie to reloading that fills his cases to the brim because he is not as you call it, "a fear-mongering, hand wringing, sniveling worrywort", but I won't, and I'll let you sit next to him at the range when he tries his new loads. I'll also continue to use my firearms and ammo within the specs and parameters they were intended. If I need to have something more powerful, I'll just grab a bigger caliber. Pretty simple, it's why they now make bigger calibers. Besides......like some others, I don't get that big a thrill outta beatin' Pintos and Gremlins.

jcwit
December 29, 2012, 05:51 PM
I do have a major problem with chest pounders making blanket statements on the internet that it is safe and appropriate for everyone.

Agreed, blanket statements mean little and prove nothing.

35 Whelen
December 29, 2012, 08:43 PM
No, but SAAMI specs and published reloading manuals are the closest thing to a bible that handloaders have. They are there for a reason and for that same reason is why ammo and firearm manufacturers follow them. While I know in recent years some specs have been softened, they are still something responsible handloaders respect and use. Their guidelines, while maybe not cast in stone, are guidelines that keep our sport safe. As we both know, safety is paramount with reloading. I may not need to be told about the "other" sources of "well proven" information, but maybe other readers of this thread, like the young and inexperienced I mentioned before, could benefit from this knowledge.





It always amazes me that some feel the need for derogatory adjectives and name calling when trying to make an argument to support their opinion, and yet we call this "The High Road". You can take this to the bank 35W, everything to do with handloading for existing cartridges, has already been proven. While I have no problem with folks that feel the need to push the envelope with their own firearms, knowing full well the risks involved, I do have a major problem with chest pounders making blanket statements on the internet that it is safe and appropriate for everyone. To belittle folks that stay within the parameters of responsible reloading is only asking for an accident to happen. If you are as experienced and knowledgeable in handloading as you want us to believe, you know as well as I do, that some newbie, after reading rants on the internet about over max loads being perfectly safe, and one is a drooling worrywart, afraid to leave mamma to not at least try them, is gonna do just that. Maybe you want to applaud that newbie to reloading that fills his cases to the brim because he is not as you call it, "a fear-mongering, hand wringing, sniveling worrywort", but I won't, and I'll let you sit next to him at the range when he tries his new loads. I'll also continue to use my firearms and ammo within the specs and parameters they were intended. If I need to have something more powerful, I'll just grab a bigger caliber. Pretty simple, it's why they now make bigger calibers. Besides......like some others, I don't get that big a thrill outta beatin' Pintos and Gremlins.

If you'll re-read my post, I said: "If you're happy with your under maximum handloads, excellent, I'm happy for you. " Get it?

My rant was toward internet nannies who self righteously pound their chests and try to save the world all the while criticizing ME for what is my own business.

If I want to jump out of airplanes, ride a motorcycle without a helmet, hunt grizzlies with a pocket knife, or handload my .38 Special beyond the limits printed in manuals, that's my business. And if any of these activities influences some indiscriminent, careless person well, he or she likely was an accident waiting to happen in the first place. I'll go one step further and say anyone who gets their loading data, be it mouse fart loads or fire belching magnum loads from an internet forum without consulting a manual OR relying on existing experience is an accident waiting to happen to begin with.

35W

Ex
December 30, 2012, 04:33 PM
35W, I have to agree that this falls too far under a "blanket statement". One sentence about "happy for you" does not quite justify the rest of the paragraph about net nannies or sniveling worryworts.

You last sentence " I'll go one step further and say anyone who gets their loading data, be it mouse fart loads or fire belching magnum loads from an internet forum without consulting a manual OR relying on existing experience is an accident waiting to happen to begin with" confirms this and contradicts what most of the rest of your post says.

Your last sentence here, was infact the best and safest thing you stated in this thread.

Bear in mind, not harping on you for anything, just commenting on how the post read.

Scuba_Steve
December 30, 2012, 08:31 PM
Well... For the most part, thanks for the responses. I meant this as a question to help me understand, not as a means for two camps to argue a point.

As far as the car anaolgy, I have a miata with a 480HP V8 motor in it. I guess one could consider that a hot load, it is very fast and I love it. Just don't have the desire to do so with reloads :)

cochise
December 30, 2012, 09:48 PM
When I bought a .44 mag in the early 70's my father thought I was crazy. Use a rifle he said. His opinion a .45 Colt was more than enough in a handgun. And the .38 special was all you need. A .357 was too much flash and kick. I wonder what he would have said about the .460 or 500 magnum.

Now at 64, I think he may have been right.

armarsh
December 31, 2012, 12:33 AM
Some people may not have a little"Captain in em", but they seem to have a little "Elmer Keith" in em.

NO ONE mentioned this excellent line? Fine. If no one else is taking it I am.

And for the record, I have been known to participate in a little beyond-SAAMI loading. It does the soul good to look over the cliff now and then.

GJgo
December 31, 2012, 12:52 AM
Hey Steve, it's Jeremy. Nice to see you here. :) Anyway another thing to consider here is the variance you will see from gun to gun, considering that factory loads are theoretically made to run in the lowest common denominator. What's hot for one gun isn't necessarily hot in another, one of the many reasons to handload. For example warm loads in my 1911 10mm are pussycats in my 610 revolver. Warm loads in my Smith 629 are less warm (from reading the brass) in my 77/44 carbine, and inversely WWB factory loads in the 77/44 are more deforming to the brass than they are in the 629- this is probably due to the powder used vs. barrel length & other things. Not to mention in my 300 WSM I had some Winchester factory loads that were hammer-the-bolt-open hot whereas I can handload to keep it at a safe level & actually get better velocity. Another example in my modern 6.5x55 it's happy with roughly the book powder numbers for older actions, but it spits them out at a few hundred FPS faster with a much shorter barrel. It's all about fine tuning which you know something about. I like to run my loads, for the most part, warm up to the point of best accuracy or consistency but not push into the area where the brass starts doing funny things. Because of normal variances between actions, brass, primers, OAL etc. I always use the loading manuals as a guide to get started but then let common sense & prudence find the safe upper end for any given gun & load. If I want a weaker load, I'll get a smaller gun. :)

CraigC
December 31, 2012, 01:52 PM
No, but SAAMI specs and published reloading manuals are the closest thing to a bible that handloaders have. They are there for a reason and for that same reason is why ammo and firearm manufacturers follow them.
True but SAAMI specs are what they are for varying reasons and reaching the potential of a 100yr old cartridge in modern guns is not one of them. Fact: several cartridges have a very low pressure rating due to the old guns that chamber them. Fact: it is no more or less safe to load modern guns chambering those cartridges to higher, known pressures than any other cartridge in any other gun at any other pressure level. Fact: it is no less safe for a new handloader to load the Keith .44Spl load for his new Ruger flat-top than it is for me or John Taffin to do it. If you can't follow safe handloading practices for one gun you can't follow them for any and shouldn't be handloading.

As most things, the difference is perception. Some folks just have a need to have everything pigeon-holed. I don't.

tightgroup tiger
December 31, 2012, 03:13 PM
I have am 8mm mauser that I load routinely over book spec for and it shows no signs of pressure at all.
I also have a Browning BLR 30-06 that I can't load much over 54gr of IMR4350, with 57gr being max load, due to an undersized chamber, or it flows primers all over the place not to mention a herendous recoil, that is not comfortable or normal.

Why we load over maximum or at minimum for a particular rifle or pistol could have alot to do with our experience and knowledge of what we can do safely because of our research, and those that doesn't know what to watch for, shouldn't be doing it and probably will blow up their guns.

Some overload as a controlled experiment,I know someone on this forum that does it just to see what a given pistol can stand before it blows, myself, I'm not that curious. I stick to the pressure signs and use the published data as a starting reference, research my choice of powder to see if it is spiky at hotter loads of published data and so on, but just because I load over spec for my mauser which also has one of the strongest actions made, doesn't mean I'm being unsafe or I'm a chest thumping idiot like the ones that are blowing up their actions.

This mauser is the only rifle out of the 9 that I own that tells me through pressure signs that I can safely go 1 gr over max and is it's most accurate there. My other rifles, some stop way short of ever getting to maximum load, and the rest are just statis quo with published data.

That being said, obviously it not for the beginner or

jcwit
December 31, 2012, 05:24 PM
If I want to jump out of airplanes, ride a motorcycle without a helmet, hunt grizzlies with a pocket knife, or handload my .38 Special beyond the limits printed in manuals, that's my business. And if any of these activities influences some indiscriminent, careless person well, he or she likely was an accident waiting to happen in the first place. I'll go one step further and say anyone who gets their loading data, be it mouse fart loads or fire belching magnum loads from an internet forum without consulting a manual OR relying on existing experience is an accident waiting to happen to begin with.



So who pays for you life long hospital bills as you are no longer able to work and be a wage earner for you or your family. Who supports them after the accident that you were sure would never happen.

I had a father in law who felt the same way. Took him 8 years to die after his foolish hunting accident and was only able to move his eyes, couldn't speak or anything, fed thru a tube.

Yup it was his business and the whole family suffered along with him. Mother in law is now pennyless, and yes she had insurance. Any idea how fast even the best insurance is used up with 24 hour care? It was gone long before the 8 years were up.

No man is an island!

NWcityguy2
December 31, 2012, 05:54 PM
^ Posts like these are the reason threads get locked. You don't even explain what he actually did as a lesson for everyone else.

James2
December 31, 2012, 06:01 PM
Ignoring all of the above.

aside from hunting, I'm wondering what appeals is for hot loads. do some of you use them for purposes other than hunting or self defense?

What do you mean by HOT? To me a hot load is something at or near the high end of the published data for the caliber in question. If we use that as a definition:

I like to push my rifle hunting bullets quite fast for flatter trajectories and more terminal energy. I have never exceeded published specs in doing this but consider them hot.

Handgun ammo: I used to like to push the limit on my 44 Special. I had a modern gun not one of the older ones. I was shooting this at the time Elmer was hot rodding the 44 Spl. It was great to have so much power in your hand. (This right here is the answer you seek) You gotta remember I was just a kid in high school at the time, and Elmer was my hero. I look at it a little differently and don't load near so hot for the 44 Spl these days. I sometimes wonder if I was lucky to not have blown up a gun?

I now have a 44 magnum and have never shot factory rounds in it. I will likely never load to its full potential because I have no need for that much power. Comes a point where the recoil is enough. Who needs to beat themselves up ?? The first 44 Mag I ever saw, a feller had it but couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it. Truth is he flinched because of the heavy recoil. He liked to brag about how much power it had.
(There you go again)

I have seen the same thing many times with guys and their deer rifles bragging about how fast or how much power their "Super Whatever" Was.

If you are shooting paper or tin cans, not much use in pushing the top end. One can usually find a good accurate load below published max.

I don't mind if you want to push the envelope, but please do it carefully and watch for signs of overpressure.

My experience tells me that learning to shoot is way more important than pushing the ammo for another few FPS.

jcwit
December 31, 2012, 06:09 PM
^ Posts like these are the reason threads get locked. You don't even explain what he actually did as a lesson for everyone else.

OK! He insisted he didn't need a safety belt while in a tree stand!

Broke his neck in one place and his back in 2 places, all on the fast way down.

Now the thread won't get locked, at least because of what I posted!

NWcityguy2
December 31, 2012, 06:22 PM
So you're saying that it had nothing to do with his ammo being outside of SAAMI specs?

jcwit
December 31, 2012, 07:11 PM
NWcityguy2, did you bother to read the quote I pute at the top of my post? It reads

If I want to jump out of airplanes, ride a motorcycle without a helmet, hunt grizzlies with a pocket knife, or handload my .38 Special beyond the limits printed in manuals, that's my business.

Jumping out of airplanes, riding a motorcycle w/o a helment, or hunting grizzlies with a pocket knife has nothing to do with SAMMI specs either.

jcwit
December 31, 2012, 07:13 PM
So you're saying that it had nothing to do with his ammo being outside of SAAMI specs?

Not real sure what the SAMMI specs are for a bow/arrow/broadhead.

CraigC
December 31, 2012, 07:40 PM
35Whelen's post had to do with calculated risk, which is what we're talking about. Jcwit's posts have nothing at all to do with this discussion.

jcwit
December 31, 2012, 07:57 PM
That may well be your opinion.

Sorry if you can't see the correlation.

Are you stalking me?

CraigC
December 31, 2012, 08:29 PM
Are you stalking me?
I do believe I posted in this thread before you did. :rolleyes:

jcwit
December 31, 2012, 08:46 PM
But then you followed me over here and made a derogatory post about me. At least in my mind.

Why do you insist on bickering with me and my opinions, or am I not allowed to have or express my opinion.

You may have your opinion as I may have mine. At least I think I still have that right.

I'm going over to Benchrest central, wanna come along?

Robert101
December 31, 2012, 08:53 PM
I can only give my personal reasons to stay within SAAMI or published data.
First, I don't have any testing equipment so I don't know exactly what pressure a certain load in a certain gun is producing. Second, from what I've read, it is really hard to read brass, primers, etc in handgun cartridges to ascertain what pressures are safe. Third, just because a certain load works one day doesn't mean it will work the same the next day as temperature when loading and firing has an effect on pressure. Fourth, in handgun ammo little changes in charge weight, and bullet setback can make big differences in load discharge. For all of the above, I'll stay with the conservative load data. If I need more thrill, then I just buy a more potent weapon.

All that being said, I have no problem with others experimenting with nuclear loads in any variety. Just please let me know at the range before you fire..........

Ky Larry
January 1, 2013, 01:08 PM
Steve, I have no idea why people would want to load over published max loads. Keep good records and chart accuracy as you increase powder. When accuracy starts to fall off, stop. As you gain experience and confidence, you may want to experiment a little. I've been reloading since 1974 and have always followed the manuals. So far, I've yet to have a problem.

An Air Force Wild Weasel pilot once told me:"There are old pilots. There are bold pilots. There ain't no old and bold pilots."

CraigC
January 1, 2013, 01:21 PM
But then you followed me over here and made a derogatory post about me.
I didn't follow you over here. I've been participating in this thread for a week. Get over yourself.

Saying that your posts are off-topic is derogatory??? :confused:

jcwit
January 1, 2013, 01:38 PM
My posts are no more off topic than the post I made a quote of.

Sorry you can't get it, but then thats not my problem.

Now get ready to jump!

CraigC
January 1, 2013, 01:55 PM
Like I already said, the post you quoted was about risk and responsibility, which is directly related to this discussion. Your response, was not. Sorry YOU can't get THAT. Either way I'm over you and your foolishness.

morcey2
January 1, 2013, 02:09 PM
I load one cartridge _way_ beyond SAAMI specs. Because SAAMI was smoking crack on that one. 8x57 Mauser. 35000 psi? I think not. Thankfully, much of the reloading data out there is loaded to the more sane CIP standard of 57000 psi/49000 cup. I do wish SAAMI would come out with something like "8MM Mauser +P". At least Hornady is loading to a more useful level.

With most of the rifles I load for, the most accurate loads I've found are in the hot end of the min-max range. I think that has something to do with the most efficient burning pressure of modern powders, but that's just a guess.

Matt

tahoe2
January 1, 2013, 04:51 PM
I agree with Morcy, my 8mm mausers from the 1940's (3 of them) tend to run better (accurate with no signs of pressure) with loads in the 46,000-50,000 cup range. While they may be considered "Hot", I believe they perform the way they were intended and are very accurate. I don't recommend this for others; I took my time and worked up these loads over several years.

My Spanish mausers from the 1930's I run a bit lighter @ 42,000-45,000 cup and they perform very well; based on the design of those actions (93 & 95) I don't feel the need to run any hotter.

By reloading I can tailor loads for each individual gun, it takes time, but it's well worth it, I am confident that any gun/load combo I take to the field, will do it's job as long as I respect it's limitations.

I tend to have better success with loads that fill 90-100% capacity of available space after bullet is in.

HOOfan_1
January 1, 2013, 09:47 PM
I load the lowest possible pressure I can for plinking. No reason to waste powder and put unneeded stress on my guns. I load the hottest loads I can, which are still accurate for hunting.

jlucke69
January 2, 2013, 11:46 AM
I own several 44 mags. I do not load hot in the sense of over pressure, but I do load with different powders depending on my need/desire. I use Universal or Clays for light lead loads or when I am taking out a new shooter. I personally prefer H110 in the jacketed loads I shoot and I am plenty accurate with them. None are loaded above pressure, but you can definitely tell the H110 is a hotter (faster) load.

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