Accidental hot loaded .38 using Trail boss


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NeptunusRex
December 23, 2012, 12:30 PM
Loaded 100 rounds of 38 using trailboss with 4.7 grains. Hodgdon manual calls for 4.1 (read the 1 as a 7). I was thinking about running it through my Ruger since it has a beefier frame than my Colt or Smith. Should I just toss them? Thanks.

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jwrowland77
December 23, 2012, 12:41 PM
If 4.1 is max, I would pull those bullets and redo. No reason to put in harms way, you most importantly or your firearm, just because your Ruger is beefy. Better to be safe, than really sorry.

Patocazador
December 23, 2012, 01:34 PM
I don't have a lot of experience with Trail Boss and have only used it at maximum loads in .45 Colt. Even though they were listed as maximum, they felt VERY tame when fired.
However, if 4.1 is maximum, 4.7 is almost 15% higher. Better pull them just to be safe.

floydster
December 23, 2012, 01:54 PM
Did the load fill the case?? I use alot of Trail Boss. Are talking about 38Spl?? 38 Super?? 38 S&W??
What gr. bullet?? Not enough info.

Smokeyloads

AnthonyRSS
December 23, 2012, 01:56 PM
I don't have a lot of experience with Trail Boss and have only used it at maximum loads in .45 Colt. Even though they were listed as maximum, they felt VERY tame when fired.
However, if 4.1 is maximum, 4.7 is almost 15% higher. Better pull them just to be safe.
Felt recoil is not indicative of internal pressures.

PO2Hammer
December 23, 2012, 01:58 PM
I would prep another round or two and see if 4.7 reaches the base of the bullet when seated. If it does not, I would probably shoot them in the Ruger. If you are compressing the Trail Boss at 4.7, I would pull them.

buck460XVR
December 23, 2012, 02:03 PM
I would prep another round or two and see if 4.7 reaches the base of the bullet when seated. If it does not, I would probably shoot them in the Ruger. If you are compressing the Trail Boss at 4.7, I would pull them.


This. In handgun TB is safe up to 100% of case capacity. In other words without compressing it, you cannot get enough in a case to do harm. If you go to the Hodgdon website and look at this it shows 100% of case capacity is a max load.....


As noted in the powder description section, Trail Boss was designed primarily for reduced loads using lead bullets in pistol
cartridges. However, Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets.
These reduced loads make firing such cartridges as the 300 Winchester Magnum or even the 458 Winchester Magnum pure fun!
Listed below we show a few examples of such loads throughout the Reloading Data Center, but the fun doesn't stop there. If you
don't see Trail Boss data for your favorite cartridge we have a formula for developing loads for all cartridges and it's simple to
follow. This formula may be used in both rifle and pistol applications:
Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at
this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your
maximum load. Pressures will be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use!
Take 70% of this powder charge weight (multiply the maximum load from step 1 by .7), and that is your starting
load.
Start with this beginning load and work up to your maximum charge, all the while searching for the most accurate
reduced load. Once found, the fun begins!

Walkalong
December 23, 2012, 02:08 PM
I don't think you can blow anything up with Trail Boss, but I would just shoot them in a .357 and call it good.

7.62 Nato
December 23, 2012, 02:08 PM
It was my understanding you could not overcharge a modern smokeless cartridge using TrailBoss. That could be an exaggeration, I don't know. I may be tempted to fire those .38 Special rounds in a .357 magnum though.

NeptunusRex
December 23, 2012, 02:40 PM
Thanks. The powder does not fill the case and is not compressed by the bullet (it is close though). Using 158 gr lead flat nose for a .38 special load. The tribal knowledge I received from fellow reloaders was it would be safe through a .357 but was looking for outside experience. I appreciate the replies ,and the fact that no one beat me up about it :)

rcmodel
December 23, 2012, 02:43 PM
If it is not compressed, I would shoot it.

On the other hand, you made a serious reloading mistake.

And you would learn a reloading lesson you won't soon forget buy pulling them all!

rc

7.62 Nato
December 23, 2012, 03:20 PM
I find it odd that the IMR data lists 4.2 grains of TrailBoss as max load for both the .38 Special, AND the .357 Magnum with 158 grain lead bullets. The .357 Mag load showing increased velocity and pressure. They do list one with a SWC, and the other is LRN but I don't see that being critical. They are both loaded to appropriate COLs.

38 SPECIAL
Case: Winchester Twist: 1:18.75"
Barrel: 7.7" Trim: 1.145" Primer: Winchester SP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bullet: 158 GR. LSWC Dia. .357" COL: 1.455"
Trail Boss 2.7 661 11,400 PSI 4.2 804 13,700 CUP

357 MAGNUM
Case: Winchester Twist: 1:18.75"
Barrel: 10" Trim: 1.285" Primer: Winchester SPM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bullet: 158 GR. LRNFP Dia. .358" COL: 1.610"
Trail Boss 3.2 754 16,500 CUP 4.2 865 20,400 CUP

243winxb
December 23, 2012, 04:25 PM
I like the way people answer without knowing the bullet weight or ever the caliber in question, for sure, till the info was supplied in post 10. :rolleyes:

PO2Hammer
December 23, 2012, 05:05 PM
I like the way people answer without knowing the bullet weight or ever the caliber in question, for sure, till the info was supplied in post 10
Doesn't matter with Trail Boss, as long as you're not compressing the powder.
If you compress it, all bets are off.

R.W.Dale
December 23, 2012, 05:12 PM
I like the way people answer without knowing the bullet weight or ever the caliber in question, for sure, till the info was supplied in post 10. :rolleyes:

With trail boss if its not compressed its not an overload. Cartridge, bullet weight is irrelevant




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

243winxb
December 23, 2012, 05:28 PM
OH, i see. :cool: Sorry about that. :)

Walkalong
December 23, 2012, 06:03 PM
243winxb is correct though, we did assume .38 Spl. :)

buck460XVR
December 23, 2012, 06:19 PM
243winxb is correct though, we did assume .38 Spl. :)

I didn't assume anything. I didn't have to. If you read the quote from Hodgdon I posted you'll see there is no reference whatsoever to caliber or bullet weight. It clearly states that this formula works for all calibers, all bullet weights, lead or jacketed, rifle or handgun. It also states using this formula, "Pressures will be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use!". Didn't have to assume a caliber....didn't have to know the caliber. Only had to know if the load was compressed or not and not less than 70% of case capacity.

FROGO207
December 23, 2012, 06:56 PM
Per the MAX charge listed that was the most accurate loading + 5% for them in their test setup using trail boss. I can't find the email just now but I asked them the question when IMR first came out with the TB load info and saw the discrepancy with Max load being a full case without compressing it all in the same manual and that was their answer.

Walkalong
December 23, 2012, 06:56 PM
Only had to know if the load was compressed or not and not less than 70% of case capacity.We had no idea what percentage the fill was. Lighten up. It wasn't personal. If it didn't fit, don't worry about it. :)

floydster
December 23, 2012, 08:37 PM
If it fits/it ships:)
I would shoot them--just sayin. ( In a .357).

Smokeyloads

ArchAngelCD
December 24, 2012, 01:31 AM
Thanks. The powder does not fill the case and is not compressed by the bullet (it is close though). Using 158 gr lead flat nose for a .38 special load. The tribal knowledge I received from fellow reloaders was it would be safe through a .357 but was looking for outside experience. I appreciate the replies ,and the fact that no one beat me up about it :)
As long as the load in not compressed there is no way to get enough Trail Boss in any case to cause a pressure problem. But, DO NOT compress Trail Boss because if you break up the little donuts you can and will cause pressure spikes.

I find it odd that the IMR data lists 4.2 grains of TrailBoss as max load for both the .38 Special, AND the .357 Magnum with 158 grain lead bullets. The .357 Mag load showing increased velocity and pressure.
It's the Magnum primer that's causing the .357 Magnum load to produce higher pressures than the .38 Special load even though they both use the same powder charge. We also don't know how deep the 2 different bullets seat in the cases. Both can increase pressures which is obvious but the numbers in the data.

JLDickmon
December 24, 2012, 07:55 AM
If it is not compressed, I would shoot it.

On the other hand, you made a serious reloading mistake.

And you would learn a reloading lesson you won't soon forget buy pulling them all!

rc
been there done that.. last week..

another good rule is "check multiple sources"

JLDickmon
December 24, 2012, 08:02 AM
I find it odd that the IMR data lists 4.2 grains of TrailBoss as max load for both the .38 Special, AND the .357 Magnum with 158 grain lead bullets. The .357 Mag load showing increased velocity and pressure. They do list one with a SWC, and the other is LRN but I don't see that being critical. They are both loaded to appropriate COLs.



Bullet profile can GREATLY affect pressure

kingmt
December 24, 2012, 09:37 AM
I don't buy the Mag primer theory. I agree With NATO. Looking at the COL that data looks fishy to me.

Ether they just gutted at the numbers or different guns made the difference.

918v
December 24, 2012, 11:46 AM
It's prolly a typo.

In any case, the 4.7gr load is safe unless its 7.4 ;)

jacksgd
December 24, 2012, 12:10 PM
I personally would pull them.
My load for .38 Special with Trail Boss is 4.2 gr.
That is with a case trimmed at 1.145.
A Lee T.L. cast 158 gr. SWC with a length of .655
A

jacksgd
December 24, 2012, 12:16 PM
I personally would pull them.
My load for .38 Special with Trail Boss is 4.2 gr.
That is with a case trimmed at 1.145.
A Lee T.L. cast 158 gr. SWC with a length of .655
A COL of 1.450

That leaves a seating depth of .350
with an available case space of .360

I then measured out 4.7 grains of Trail Boss in a primed case and came out with an available case space of .340

By those measurements it leaves a compressed load by .010.

buck460XVR
December 24, 2012, 12:38 PM
We had no idea what percentage the fill was. Lighten up. It wasn't personal. If it didn't fit, don't worry about it. :)


Folks that have actually used TB were well aware that a load 15% over max as listed in a published manual was close to or above being compressed. Not an assumption, but fact. We also know it does not like to be compressed. This is why there was concern and the question of % asked. Again since TrailBoss is loaded to volume, no assumptions of caliber needed to be made. Since making assumptions and then responding to a question about reloading is irresponsible and foolish, I took exception to being included in your blanket statement. If you made an error and assumed something, I give you credit for admitting it. But don't ASSUME the rest of us made the same error.

HKGuns
December 24, 2012, 01:16 PM
Lets keep it high road folks, no reason to take or get personal on this topic.

Lost Sheep
December 24, 2012, 03:08 PM
I find it odd that the IMR data lists 4.2 grains of TrailBoss as max load for both the .38 Special, AND the .357 Magnum with 158 grain lead bullets. The .357 Mag load showing increased velocity and pressure. They do list one with a SWC, and the other is LRN but I don't see that being critical. They are both loaded to appropriate COLs.

38 SPECIAL
Case: Winchester Twist: 1:18.75"
Barrel: 7.7" Trim: 1.145" Primer: Winchester SP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bullet: 158 GR. LSWC Dia. .357" COL: 1.455"
Trail Boss 2.7 661 11,400 PSI 4.2 804 13,700 CUP

357 MAGNUM
Case: Winchester Twist: 1:18.75"
Barrel: 10" Trim: 1.285" Primer: Winchester SPM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bullet: 158 GR. LRNFP Dia. .358" COL: 1.610"
Trail Boss 3.2 754 16,500 CUP 4.2 865 20,400 CUP
I am surprised at the amount of difference, but not so surprised that there are increases. Magnum primer instead of standard and 10" barrel instead of 7.7".

It really does drive home the point of re-working up loads whenever you change any component.

Lost Sheep

col.lemat
December 24, 2012, 03:14 PM
I would pull them

Peter M. Eick
January 20, 2013, 09:17 AM
I don't often comment about overloading rounds, but MY standard 38 special 158 lead SWC with Trailboss is 4.6 grns. I shoot them all the time with no issues. It does not exceed the full case requirement "for me".

It is an overload so you take your chances.

My recommendation is pull them if you have not worked up your loads to this level.

DeadFlies
January 20, 2013, 10:03 AM
Lee lists a max load of 9 grains of TB for 30-30. I load 10.5 grains with no issues. As long as it isn't compressed you should be OK, IMHO.

El Guero
January 20, 2013, 10:20 AM
I'll be the umpteenth person to say they are probably fine, but go ahead and shoot them in a 357 just to really cover your butt. As mentioned above, I've also overloaded Trail Boss in 30-30 to no ill effect.

GaryL
January 20, 2013, 11:35 AM
The only risk I see, based on the knowledgeable comments all ready posted, is for them to be on the high side pressure wise, getting lost in the mix, and end up in a weaker gun.

I've been cleaning up the man cave, and finding all sorts of "odds & ends". Like a handful of 9mm, no 2 or 3 the same. Some are reloads, some commercial, so tossed them into a bag for disposal during the next trip to the range. Now I know none of them are overloaded, but some may be slightly underloaded, and won't cycle the slide. I recognize one of those, potentially, but I don't know about the rest. My point is, they have a nasty habit of finding their way out of the place they belong into somewhere else. So if you decide to shoot them, at least mark and segregate them.

hueyville
January 20, 2013, 08:47 PM
I would put them in my beefiest .357 wheel gun and let fly. But I am not real smart. With certain powders my rule is dip the case in the powder, shake it off level and seat bullet of choice. No guns pieces removed from body by surgeon yet.

jcwit
January 20, 2013, 09:49 PM
Lee lists a max load of 9 grains of TB for 30-30. I load 10.5 grains with no issues. As long as it isn't compressed you should be OK,

Same load that I use, and no signs of pressure.

greenmtnguy
January 21, 2013, 12:04 AM
As the OP didn't state what firearm he was using these in (38Spl, 38Spl+P, 357Mag), and without being able to physically see&measure the case, bullet, seating depth, etc. to determine whether the TrailBoss is compressed or not I would personally add my vote to the "Pull Em" list. If there is additional information forthcoming, that might cause me to change my vote. But technically speaking, the "recipe" wasn't followed, and even though TB can be safe in a case as long as it isn't compressed, I can't be sure that it isn't compressed given what info was provided.

Just my $.02 and probably worth less than that.

P.S I use TrailBoss in my 45 Colt and 45/70 mouse-plinking loads (even the 45/70 load is subsonic) and they aren't full in those cases

Lost Sheep
January 21, 2013, 12:50 AM
Thanks. The powder does not fill the case and is not compressed by the bullet (it is close though). Using 158 gr lead flat nose for a .38 special load. The tribal knowledge I received from fellow reloaders was it would be safe through a .357 but was looking for outside experience. I appreciate the replies ,and the fact that no one beat me up about it :)
Oh, we think you can be trusted to beat yourself up for it.

Here's what I would do.

Check other manuals and see if the 4.1 is particularly conservative. This might give some peace of mind. Re-check the cartridge dimensions. Cartridge length is a proxy for the important measurement, the volume UNDER the bullet.

Load a few rounds with 4.0 some with 4.1, some with 4.2, some with 4.3, 4.4 and so forth.

Shoot the 4.0 and inspect for signs of overpressure (sticky extraction, flattened primers, stuff like that). Then the 4.1 and so forth. Stop if you get overpressure.

With Trail Boss, as has been posted before, there is little chance of overpressure, but the general procedure outlined above should work for any such "accidents", even with other powders.

Caution is the watchword.

Lost Sheep

savanahsdad
January 21, 2013, 01:31 AM
Oh, we think you can be trusted to beat yourself up for it.

Here's what I would do.

Check other manuals and see if the 4.1 is particularly conservative. This might give some peace of mind. Re-check the cartridge dimensions. Cartridge length is a proxy for the important measurement, the volume UNDER the bullet.

Load a few rounds with 4.0 some with 4.1, some with 4.2, some with 4.3, 4.4 and so forth.

Shoot the 4.0 and inspect for signs of overpressure (sticky extraction, flattened primers, stuff like that). Then the 4.1 and so forth. Stop if you get overpressure.

With Trail Boss, as has been posted before, there is little chance of overpressure, but the general procedure outlined above should work for any such "accidents", even with other powders.

Caution is the watchword.

Lost Sheep
+1 ,
or in other words work up a load befor shooting those, you maybe ok , but I would not pull all of them if I didn't have to , but I would not shoot them eather with out working up to them

9w1911
January 21, 2013, 02:18 AM
I just loaded with TB for the first time, really enjoyable to work with.

ArchAngelCD
January 21, 2013, 09:00 AM
So many people worried about which caliber and which handgun, why? Hodgdon sells us you can not cause an overpressure situation with Trail Boss. You CAN NOT get enough Trail Boss into a case as long as you don't compress the load to cause any pressure problems, period!

But, this is only true for Trail Boss and not other smokeless powders.

9w1911
January 22, 2013, 01:54 AM
yea a max load of trail boss is 7.3 in what I was shooting and that was tame, like really really tame.

Captaingyro
January 22, 2013, 06:36 AM
Load a few rounds with 4.0 some with 4.1, some with 4.2, some with 4.3, 4.4 and so forth.

Shoot the 4.0 and inspect for signs of overpressure (sticky extraction, flattened primers, stuff like that). Then the 4.1 and so forth. Stop if you get overpressure.

Yep. I came in to say the same thing, but Lost Sheep beat me to it, with Savanahsdad seconding. We all know how to work up a load; with fifteen minutes additional work you can find your answer and probably learn a little in the process.

1KPerDay
January 22, 2013, 01:02 PM
I'd be very surprised if you see any pressure signs with a full uncompressed load of TB in .38 special. The recommended max loads for 148WC felt like squibs.

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