Cylinder rings on revolvers.


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Droid noob
December 23, 2012, 08:11 PM
Is this just something that happens to every revolver? I'm a noob revolver owner and have been dry firing my new Gp100 stainless steel matte finish. I noticed the ring is very visible already. Is this due to the matte finish of my revolver or is this unavoidable? Thanks for any input.

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ColtPythonElite
December 23, 2012, 08:13 PM
Yes, it just happens....When I was a younger man, I bought a brand new polished King Cobra. Being ignorant, I thought something was wrong with the gun when that ring developed the first few times I used it.

rcmodel
December 23, 2012, 08:15 PM
No, not every revolver.

Most revolvers would be fair statement though.

You can slow it down somewhat with a drop of oil though.

The other thing is, stainless guns show hoof prints after a gnat lands on them and buzzes off.

They show every tiny scratch & scuff much worse then a blued gun.

rc

Droid noob
December 23, 2012, 08:25 PM
No, not every revolver.

Most revolvers would be fair statement though.

You can slow it down somewhat with a drop of oil though.

The other thing is, stainless guns show hoof prints after a gnat lands on them and buzzes off.

They show every tiny scratch & scuff much worse then a blued gun.

rc

Lol. Hoof prints.

Old Fuff
December 23, 2012, 09:04 PM
That ring on your GP-100 is there for a reason. The early release of the cylinder latch allows it to act as a brake during fast double-action shooting and prevents the cylinder from turning so fast it skips the next notch.

Droid noob
December 23, 2012, 09:11 PM
That ring on your GP-100 is there for a reason. The early release of the cylinder latch allows it to act as a brake during fast double-action shooting and prevents the cylinder from turning so fast it skips the next notch.

I can see the mechanics of it. Just wasn't sure if this was a problem with the matte finish or what.

evan price
December 24, 2012, 06:12 AM
Just means that you shoot your revolver and its not a safe queen.

Hit_Factor
December 24, 2012, 06:29 AM
If you want it to disappear you can polish the whole cylinder, re-polish as needed.

Droid noob
December 24, 2012, 09:20 AM
If you want it to disappear you can polish the whole cylinder, re-polish as needed.

As long as it normal wear, I'm okay with some character. Thanks guys.

Guillermo
December 24, 2012, 09:47 AM
stainless guns show hoof prints after a gnat lands on them

great line

bannockburn
December 24, 2012, 10:41 AM
I have polished up a few of my stainless guns with Mothers Mag Polish. Makes the gun look like it's nickel plated and takes out a lot of the marks and scratches on the gun.

CraigC
December 24, 2012, 11:03 AM
Reposted from another thread:

"Firstly, SA's and DA's are different and I will address them separately.

SA's:
A traditional single action (basically anything but a Ruger New Model) that has a half cock notch 'should' be well-timed from the factory and not ring the cylinder. The bolt should rise into the leede, not before it. If it rises early, it should be fixed. Most new guns are properly timed and I do not own one that isn't. A traditional SA that is properly timed but has a ring has been mishandled. All one has to do to take care that your cylinder is never ringed is to never lower the hammer from the half cock notch. Doing so causes the bolt to rise between the leedes and then when the cylinder is turned, the bolt drags on it. Always draw the hammer all the way back to full cock before lowering it. Properly handling a single action will guarantee a lifetime of use without ringing the cylinder. 19 of my 26 single actions are traditional types and only a couple of those that I bought used have a cylinder ring, presumably from mishandling.

A Ruger New Model is designed for safety, ultimate reliability and ease of mass production. Very little of the hand fitting required for proper timing. So the bolt (latch in Ruger-speak) will always rise early to guarantee proper function. There is also the issue of no half cock notch. Since the loading gate releases the cylinder to rotate, you can close the gate at any location in the cylinder's rotation. So even if properly timed, you would have to make sure you always closed the gate with a bolt notch over the bolt. This can be fixed but most don't bother, even on expensive custom guns.

DA's:
DA's are subject to two rings. First is the timing ring. This ring is identical to the one SA's get due to poor timing. It is usually very wide and distinct. In my collection, only my newest S&W has this ring. A late model 629MG that, ironically, has been professionally tuned. The bolt rises about halfway between notches. The rest of my S&W's are properly timed and the bolt does not rise until it is over the leede.

Most Ruger's will have the heavy ring from an early rising bolt. I'm not familiar enough with Colt DA's to comment on them.

The second ring is usually quite faint and caused by closing the cylinder when the bolt is between notches and then rotating it to lock. One would have to take care to always close the cylinder with a bolt notch over the bolt and rotate it to that notch to prevent the ring. Most don't bother, including myself.

I don't have a better pic but you can just make out the two distinct rings on this 629. About halfway between the notches the ring goes from faint to heavy."

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsiii/large/IMG_8763b.jpg


"This single action has seen a lot of use, a lot of shooting and a lot of handling. You can see that it does not have a cylinder ring but that the only wear from the rising bolt is in the leede. This sixgun is perfectly timed. "

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsiii/large/Open%20Top%2003.JPG

Jim K
December 24, 2012, 03:22 PM
I drove my brand new car today and the tire tread got dirty. I will never buy that make again or own any car that has dirty tires. Don't tell me it's normal; I am perfection itself and demand perfection in everything I own or use.

Jim ;)

CraigC
December 24, 2012, 03:29 PM
I drove my brand new car today and the tire tread got dirty. I will never buy that make again or own any car that has dirty tires. Don't tell me it's normal; I am perfection itself and demand perfection in everything I own or use.
I simply provide information and that's how you respond? Got anything constructive to add Jim, or just sarcastic and stupid comments???

Merry Christmas to you too. :barf:

CPO15
December 24, 2012, 04:02 PM
Craig; I didn't read Jim's post as directed to you, just sarcasm in general. Lighten up, it's Christmas!!!

Guillermo
December 24, 2012, 04:43 PM
I thought Jim was funny.

He often is...sometimes he means to be :neener:

Jim K
December 24, 2012, 09:21 PM
Merry Christmas Craig C. Your advice is OK, but you sound like a humorless perfectionist who cannot tolerate any failings in guns or people.

If you are not that way, and I am reading your post wrong, I apologize.

Jim

BYJO4
December 24, 2012, 09:54 PM
The ring is normal and just indicates you enjoy shooting your gun.

HKGuns
December 24, 2012, 09:55 PM
Being fairly new to revolvers as well I have seen posts, I can't remember where, that the ring was a sign of someone "monkey fisting" it who didn't know how to handle a revolver properly!

I've read several threads on just this subject and they all seem to indicate it is normal use that brings out the ring just as it has on all of my revolvers.

Why would someone make the claim that a monkey, who doesn't know how to handle a revolver, is responsible for the ring? Are they just idiots who don't really know what they are talking about or is there more to it?

Ky Larry
December 24, 2012, 11:22 PM
I'd like to start a fund to pay for a stickectomy for CraigC.

Seriously, just chill out. The world is not out to insult you. Beleive me, you're not that important. I know I'm not.

CraigC
December 25, 2012, 12:48 AM
All you guys telling me to lighten up or chill out can go pound sand as I'm about to explain the tone of my post.

Jim, for the third thread now, two on this subject, you have responded in a sarcastic, condescending and inflammatory manner. I really don't understand the reasoning behind it, your perception of my post or why it sticks in your craw. Judging by the many conversations I've had on this subject, a lot of people have some misconceptions about cylinder rings. Many believe a ring is just a fact of life and that it is normal on ALL revolvers, single and double action. This is simply not true and all I try to do is shed some light on the subject with a technical explanation. I'm not passing judgement, spitting on anyone's dog or talking about anyone's momma so I really don't understand what your problem is.

If you're okay with ringed cylinders on all your guns that's fine. All I'm trying to do is provide the information. Whoever is reading it is free to do with it as they wish. It has nothing to do with being perfect or having a stick up my ass. There's a right way and a wrong way to do everything and if you're blissful in your ignorance, then that is just fine with me. Just don't give me a bunch of sarcastic, condescending BS because I prefer to do it the right way. I'm sorry if telling you you're doing something wrong is such a blow to your ego. You are free to consult any major sixgunsmith or Colt specialist to gain the evidence you need. Or you can call USFA and ask Doug why they had to remove the lockwork in their guns at shows. I'll save you the trouble, it is because a lot of people do not know how to properly handle a traditional single action and their guns would be in need of a rebuild after the show if they didn't.

What is sad is that we have to have a knockdown, drag-out argument over something that should be common knowledge among serious revolver enthusiasts.

460Kodiak
December 25, 2012, 01:42 AM
Responded while drunk. Deleted.

Geezer Glide
December 25, 2012, 08:59 AM
Never open the cylinder or cycle the action and you won't have the ring. Or, you can enjoy your revolver and spend your spare time worrying about things that really matter.

Taurus 617 CCW
December 25, 2012, 10:01 AM
The Colt double action revolvers will show less of a ring as their timing is a little different than other revolvers. You will notice on most colts that there is very little ring around the cylinder. You will see contact on the cylinder just before the bolt drops into the cylinder notch.

Old Fuff
December 25, 2012, 10:26 AM
All revolvers are not created equal, meaning that different makes and models sometimes work differently. Craig is applying the way some (but not all) Colt Single Action Army revolvers are timed to other unrelated guns.

For example, Jerry Kuhnhausen wrote a series of shop manuals for various revolvers that explain in detail how they work. These manuals in turn were based on those used by the manufacturer to train they’re own workers. They represent the most accurate information about how the manufacturer does or did things, and I will make a radical statement and say that any particular manufacturer is more familiar with their products then anyone else.

In his The Smith & Wesson Revolver – A Shop Manual, it says regarding the release point of the cylinder stop the following:

1. With the trigger temporarily in place and the hand removed (see figure 55) do the following tests.

2. From the full forward position, slowly move the trigger back. The cylinder stop should pull down to about the bottom of the window in the frame, but not below.

3. Then as the trigger continues back to the half-way point, the stop should slip by and snap up into the full up position with the top of the stop body against the inside of the frame.

If you try this with your own Smith & Wesson or Ruger double-action revolver you will find that when the trigger is about half-way back the cylinder stop (cylinder latch in Ruger’s) is indeed released, and the cylinder has rotated a little past half-way to two-thirds toward the next notch. Both company’s will tell you that this is the way it’s supposed to be so that the stop/latch can work on the cylinder as a brake when it’s rapidly turning in fast double-action firing.

Anyone who knows Jim K’s background is well aware that he’s forgotten more about ‘smithing revolvers then most people will ever know.

For those that might be interested, Kuhnhausen's manuals covering most Smith & Wesson (pre-MIM), Colt and Ruger double-action revolvers as well as Colt Single Action (and clones), as well as Ruger's S.A. revolvers; can be purchased from www.brownells.com and www.amazon.com

Guillermo
December 25, 2012, 11:03 AM
Responded while drunk. Deleted.

this made me giggle

(which is unseemly)

Guillermo
December 25, 2012, 11:15 AM
It is difficult to tell one's tone when communicating with the typed word.
Trust me. I have ticked off some people as well as the inverse.
In the end, usually cooler heads prevail. I have had to offer apologies on more than one occasion.

I have followed both Craig and Jim for quite some time as they are both smart fellows and worthy of respect. They are also two whose tone is easily misunderstood. I am surely in that category too.

And swerving back to the OP, please keep discussing this. I, for one, am learning.

Merry Christmas my friends.

:D

ozarkguy
December 25, 2012, 11:20 AM
In my opinion, Craig is absolutely correct in his statements regarding Colt single action revolvers, (except for the discontinued and rediculous Colt Cowboy, which is a different animal), Colt replicas, and 3 screw (unmodified) Rugers). Gun writer John Taffin would also agree, and he's written extensively on this.

I won't say much about S&W and Colt double actions, or New Model Ruger single actions except that I think he is correct regarding these as well.

I, for one, have learned a great deal from the various forums I belong to and have never gotten bad advice from Craig. He may be a stickler, but he's usually right and he has a lot of nice guns!

PS--he takes great pictures too!

Guillermo
December 25, 2012, 11:28 AM
I LOVE it when he shares photos of his beautiful toys.

It is hard not to be envious.

:fire:

CraigC
December 25, 2012, 01:49 PM
Thank you fine gents, I'll ignore the rest.

Merry Christmas to you guys, hope you all got some good sixgun gear from Santa. :)

788Ham
December 25, 2012, 02:10 PM
I got a new to me S&W # 15-4 4" 95% a couple of weeks ago, does this count? Awaiting nicer weather so I can bust a few primers, Santa did good Craig, hope your holster is full also!

Merry Christmas to all.

Guillermo
December 25, 2012, 03:01 PM
hope you all got some good sixgun gear from Santa

If I am on the "fine gents" list (which I shouldn't be :evil:) know that I did not get any six gun gear.

But worry not....I did okay this year.

(3 model 15s, a 38/44, a model 14, a K22 are among the new toys)

Kp321
December 25, 2012, 05:04 PM
To avoid the "second ring" on Smiths, cock and release the hammer after closing the cylinder rather than turning the cylinder to the next notch by hand.

Jim K
December 25, 2012, 11:12 PM
I thank Old Fuff for the kind words. I am certain that many people know more about revolvers than I do, and I have been fortunate enough to learn from some of them, including Old Fuff, who has kept me on the straight and narrow several times.

I think Fuff's post put the thing in perspective very well. I will note that it might be possible to alter an S&W or Ruger DA revolver to drop the cylinder stop later, but it is neither feasible nor desirable and there is no real reason to attempt it.

Jim

HKGuns
December 25, 2012, 11:49 PM
To avoid the "second ring" on Smiths, cock and release the hammer after closing the cylinder rather than turning the cylinder to the next notch by hand.

This is something I didn't know, thanks!

ozarkguy
December 26, 2012, 09:15 AM
Me neither. I wish someone would have informed me of this around 1980!

Old Fuff
December 26, 2012, 09:57 AM
Actually this technique will work with most revolvers regardless of the brand or model, but it may require lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber. Done correctly this is no problem but it makes some people nervous. You can get the same results if you simply align the cylinder when you close it so that a notch lines up with the cylinder bolt (Colt), cylinder stop (S&W), cylinder latch (Ruger).

HKGuns
December 26, 2012, 12:44 PM
Thanks fluff, I normally do that when closing the cylinder so I guess my natural instincts were correct. It made no sense to me not to do that when I close the cylinder.

Jim K
December 26, 2012, 01:26 PM
The only gun where that concerns me is on the Colt DA's. Those bolt sprngs are small, but very strong and that bolt can really dig into the cylinder. Even in normal operation, when it comes up in the leade, it leaves a gouge mark. That is not a real problem, but it is unsightly. One solution is to reduce that spring weight. The same is true with the Colt SAA and its clones. That bolt spring can be slimmed and trimmed quite a bit while still keeping it up to handling rapid fire.

S&W and Ruger really are not a bother to me, since the springs are not that strong and all the cylinder stop/latch will do is polish off the bluing or burnish the SS a bit.

No matter what, though, it is really a cosmetic thing. I had an e-mail on the subject from a fellow who is worried that the cylinder stop in his SAA clone will eventually wear through the cylinder and the gun will blow up. I assured him that many generations of his descendants would have passed to their rewards before that would happen.

He also asked about setting up an S&W to drop its cylinder stop later. I said it wasn't feasible. It would require building up and changing the contour of either the trigger or the stop and either would be a very delicate weld job. Or a new cylinder stop could be made, but that would be expensive and either way it would be a solution to a non-problem.

Jim

Old Fuff
December 26, 2012, 02:35 PM
Of course we can all go back to top-break revolvers of the kind Smith & Wesson made during the middle 19th to almost mid-20th centuries. :what:

With the barrel open simply align a chamber with the bore and then close the barrel. Then they’re would be no mark what so ever. :cool:

Any takers? :D:

CraigC
December 26, 2012, 04:06 PM
If I am on the "fine gents" list (which I shouldn't be )...
You know better than that. ;)

I got some gun-related loot this year but I would've been just fine without it. At this point it's just gravy. I count my blessings every day and they are many. Despite the silly assumptions 'some' folks make about my character, I've never been in such a fine state of bliss.


Craig is applying the way some (but not all) Colt Single Action Army revolvers are timed to other unrelated guns.
Wrong all the way around. You're applying what is accepted in DA's to traditional SA's. That much is painfully clear. You guys who are primarily DA shooters think that because your guns are unavoidably ringed that all revolvers are supposed to be this way and it is simply WRONG. Any traditional single action or replica with a bolt that rises before the leede needs to be retimed. Or do you know better than Eddie Janis, Hamilton Bowen, Jim Stroh, Tom Sargis, John Taffin, Brian Pearce, etc., etc., ad nauseum? Or maybe all those guns that are properly timed are just accidental??? I don't think so.

For the record, I've never said there was anything to be done about the ring on DA's. I only explained that there were actually two and the reason for each. Kuhnusen does not explain in his books where the bolt is supposed to rise in relation to the notches and like I said before, just because the trigger is halfway back, does not mean that the cylinder is halfway to the notch. Like I also said before, of my 11 S&W's, only one (629 pictured above) has its bolt rise halfway between the notches. It and three other S&W's I own have been professionally tuned. Two of which by factory gunsmiths. Personally, I really don't think you ever bothered to look at where the bolt rises on your own guns. Most people just accept the ring and never bother to ask why.


No matter what, though, it is really a cosmetic thing.
And totally avoidable on some guns. Which was my point.

Old Fuff
December 26, 2012, 08:05 PM
From post #25.


If you try this with your own Smith & Wesson or Ruger double-action revolver you will find that when the trigger is about half-way back the cylinder stop (cylinder latch in Ruger’s) is indeed released, and the cylinder has rotated a little past half-way to two-thirds toward the next notch. Both company’s will tell you that this is the way it’s supposed to be so that the stop/latch can work on the cylinder as a brake when it’s rapidly turning in fast double-action firing.

Anyone who is interested is invited to do what I suggested and see how their own hand-ejector S&W, or Ruger (or Taurus revolver) works. The instructions are in the above paragraph. If they believe that it isn't like it should be they are free to call whichever of the above manufacturers made it and ask.

The Old Fuff will concede that they probably know more about how they’re products should work then he does.

Flashcube
December 26, 2012, 09:54 PM
The cylinder stop in my Service-Six drops a hair before the lead into the notch. Both my GP100(new) and my Security-Six(older than the Service) drop about a third of the way into the cylinder's rotation. My Taurus can't seem to make up it's mind.

The Service-Six seems to work fine despite it's apparent deviation from Ruger norms. :uhoh:

fxstchewy
December 27, 2012, 06:23 AM
Responded while drunk. Deleted.
No drinking and typing...........:)

larryh1108
December 29, 2012, 10:45 AM
CraigC, I enjoy your posts. You share knowlege which is what this place is about. What we do with it is another story and up to the reader. There are many posters here who share knowlege for us to absorb. That's what makes this forum a great place to kill time and learn. Thank you and thanks to all who share instead of criticize.

dondavis3
December 29, 2012, 11:04 AM
It's normal and most all revolvers show those marks

:cool:

Kiln
December 29, 2012, 04:37 PM
Yeah every revolver I've ever owned that was actually used has had the drag mark around the cylinder. It isn't a big deal and is akin to the scrapes inside of a semi-automatic pistol's slide, anywhere that metal rubs against metal will eventually have these drag rings.

CraigC
December 30, 2012, 10:19 AM
CraigC, I enjoy your posts. You share knowlege which is what this place is about. What we do with it is another story and up to the reader. There are many posters here who share knowlege for us to absorb. That's what makes this forum a great place to kill time and learn. Thank you and thanks to all who share instead of criticize.
Thank you sir!


It's normal and most all revolvers show those marks
Yeah every revolver I've ever owned that was actually used has had the drag mark around the cylinder. It isn't a big deal and is akin to the scrapes inside of a semi-automatic pistol's slide, anywhere that metal rubs against metal will eventually have these drag rings.
And again, this only applies to DA's and New Model Rugers. Those are far from the only revolvers available but I understand that many shooters have zero experience with traditional single actions. The information I've provided will help those folks from mishandling a traditional single action in a gun shop. This is why most shops put a zip tie around the hammer of new Colt SAA's. Because too many people don't know how to handle them properly.

ozarkguy
December 30, 2012, 10:32 AM
Thank you sir!




And again, this only applies to DA's and New Model Rugers. Those are far from the only revolvers available but I understand that many shooters have zero experience with traditional single actions. The information I've provided will help those folks from mishandling a traditional single action in a gun shop. This is why most shops put a zip tie around the hammer of new Colt SAA's. Because too many people don't know how to handle them properly.
Well said.

Old Fuff
December 30, 2012, 11:04 AM
And again, this only applies to DA's and New Model Rugers.

True, but the opening post of this thread inquired about a double-action Ruger... :scrutiny:

CraigC
December 30, 2012, 11:14 AM
I'm so sorry, Ole Fluffer, that I provided MORE information than was asked for. I'd hate for somebody to actually learn something. Now he knows how and why cylinder rings are formed, or not formed, on every type of revolver on the market. Of course, that's usually what happens when you learn from books or anything other than the internet. I'd rather provide too much than not enough. More is better. :rolleyes:

The problem is not necessarily with the OP but with all the responses stating that "all revolvers get rings so get over it". As seen in posts 7, 18, 23, 46 and 47.

Stress_Test
December 30, 2012, 11:19 AM
When I realized my GP100 and LCR were both showing signs of a ring on the cylinder, I got majorly depressed for 5 long seconds. Then I put them in the bag and took them to the range for more shooting. :D


If it's purely a cosmetic by-product of normal operation, it doesn't bother me at all. Maybe Ruger and others should start laser-etching a ring on the cylinder right from the factory, then it'll be a moot point.

Kiln
December 30, 2012, 06:08 PM
Thank you sir!

And again, this only applies to DA's and New Model Rugers. Those are far from the only revolvers available but I understand that many shooters have zero experience with traditional single actions. The information I've provided will help those folks from mishandling a traditional single action in a gun shop. This is why most shops put a zip tie around the hammer of new Colt SAA's. Because too many people don't know how to handle them properly.
I get that after reading your previous posts but was not aware that single actions didn't have this issue. I've only owned one single action pistol in my life and I hardly fired it so I'm far from an expert on them. I just don't like the dated action that requires you to cock the hammer on every shot so my safe is loaded with DA/SA revolvers.

Guillermo
December 30, 2012, 06:22 PM
I like Stress Test's idea

laser etch the cylinder

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