loading buckshot and slugs into economy multi purpose loads


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ccsniper
December 24, 2012, 07:28 AM
I recently saw this video on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIlmZ_xs45o&list=FLlCtAQsNd6xqHcDi9-QY4Cg&index=5

The guy takes Federal target loads that come int the 100 round cases and casts the shot inside them into slugs. He "reloads" the shell with the slugs and shoots them in another video. I was wondering is this safe? And if so what about getting a buckshot mold and loading them in there? I figure this is actually safe as long as you keep the weight of the shot the same or under that which you took out. Any thoughts? Is it an inexpensive way to stock buckshot and slugs?

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lobo9er
December 24, 2012, 08:14 AM
cant see why it wouldn't be safe theres video on youtube of guys filling shotshells up wi all sorts of things

JT-AR-MG42
December 24, 2012, 08:34 AM
Probably should have watched the video.
No experience with slugs. I do believe the newer Lyman slug mold is designed to be a drop fit in a plastic wad. Seems like a bit of trouble for the result of sub par ballistics on the slug to me.

9 '00's weigh 1 1/8 oz. Nothing wrong with reloading them to target velocities.

I don't know how you'll do it with the standard Federal wad that is in the hull though. You will not be able to put the 9 pellets in the hull with the wad petals. They will not nest properly.

I've messed with cutting the wad petals off and got inconsistent results. I just went back to the card and fiber wads for their predictable patterns.

With No. 4 buck (forgot to count 1 1/8 oz. worth) you could load the shot cup, but again the load velocity would be more 'show' than 'go'.

Best bet for buck is to pick up a Lee-Loadall, card and fiber wads, and a can of Herco or Blue Dot.

My take, JT

Sav .250
December 24, 2012, 08:59 AM
Safe or not,I`d just buy my buckshot/slug ammo.

RaceM
December 24, 2012, 11:49 AM
I do it all the time. Open the petals, dump out the birdshot, refill with round ball and birdshot to equivalent weight, close up the petals and resize the crimp. On loads that won't fill the shot cup at required weight I top off with small poly beads my wife uses to stuff cloth dolls. They shoot fine, and if target loads are all you can find on the shelves it's definitely an option.

rcmodel
December 24, 2012, 11:49 AM
Is it an inexpensive way to stock buckshot and slugs? Not if you value your time, and add in the expense of a way to melt lead and buy the molds, shotshell reloading press, etc.

Then even when you get done, you have inferior ammo to what you could have bought already loaded.

If all you want is practice ammo?
Just shoot the store bought bird-shot.

A paper or steel target will never know the difference.

rc

ccsniper
December 24, 2012, 09:06 PM
Safe or not,I`d just buy my buckshot/slug ammo.

This is for simple practice mainly with slugs, they being nearly a buck a round I figured this would be the best way to practice with slugs at a lower recoil and less cost.

If all you want is practice ammo?
Just shoot the store bought bird-shot.

I have plenty of store bought stuff, I was just wondering if this might be a good option for maybe self defense in the case I couldn't buy buckshot. Right now nobody has any in my local area, people are just buying all the ammo around.

rcmodel
December 24, 2012, 09:11 PM
IMO: For self-defense?

If you are close enough to the BG to claim SD?

A charge of bird-shot in the breadbasket will have him screaming for 911 to come blot his guts up with a sponge and take him to the hospital.

At any rate, he will stop doing what he was doing to you.

And that is the whole object of self-defense.

rc

336A
December 24, 2012, 09:30 PM
As was already stated up thread just get yourself a Lee Load All they're pretty inexpensive. I'm getting one for Christmas and i'll be doing the same, I'll just need to get the components and I plan on getting the current Lyman shotshell manual.

Ditchtiger
December 24, 2012, 09:33 PM
Since we are getting youtube into this;

Crazy Improvised 12 ga Shotgun Loads (slo-mo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrRC-qS1CVw

ccsniper
December 25, 2012, 12:35 AM
Since we are getting youtube into this;

Crazy Improvised 12 ga Shotgun Loads (slo-mo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrRC-qS1CVw

yup, seen those vids.

ccsniper
December 25, 2012, 01:07 AM
A charge of bird-shot in the breadbasket will have him screaming for 911 to come blot his guts up with a sponge and take him to the hospital.

To me, I have seen birdshot do absolutely nothing to too many things at rather close range to bet my life on it. But my main question is this, would doing this be safe? Loading buckshot or slugs into the universal rounds that Federal makes?

ccsniper
December 25, 2012, 01:08 AM
I don't know how you'll do it with the standard Federal wad that is in the hull though. You will not be able to put the 9 pellets in the hull with the wad petals. They will not nest properly.

I have one cut open in front of me right now with nine 00 buck and they are seating fine?

Pete D.
December 25, 2012, 07:00 AM
As long as the weight of the new load is the same as the one that got dumped out, they will be safe.
Pete

ccsniper
December 25, 2012, 02:59 PM
As long as the weight of the new load is the same as the one that got dumped out, they will be safe.
Pete

Thanks this is what I was looking for, I was worried that shifting from birdshot which I suppose compresses slightly from being fired would be less pressure than a solid or larger shot mass. I read that someone said this was a bad idea due to pressure spikes.

Uniquedot
December 25, 2012, 04:09 PM
Thanks this is what I was looking for, I was worried that shifting from birdshot which I suppose compresses slightly from being fired would be less pressure than a solid or larger shot mass. I read that someone said this was a bad idea due to pressure spikes.

Actually the pressure is generally higher with the birdshot than it is when replacing it with buckshot or a slug.

Owen
December 25, 2012, 05:18 PM
Actually the pressure is generally higher with the birdshot than it is when replacing it with buckshot or a slug.

Is this because of the compression of the shot column pushing into the sides of the wad, increasing friction?

leadcounsel
December 25, 2012, 05:52 PM
So, I'm confused.

Do you find that normal 00 buckshot or 1oz slugs are ineffective for self defense? What are you trying to accomplish?

There are specalty loads available at a premium if you think you need something more than 1oz of lead traveling at 1500 fps...

Personally, I'm quite comfortable in my off-the-shelf buck and slugs.

ccsniper
December 25, 2012, 08:00 PM
So, I'm confused.

Do you find that normal 00 buckshot or 1oz slugs are ineffective for self defense? What are you trying to accomplish?

There are specalty loads available at a premium if you think you need something more than 1oz of lead traveling at 1500 fps...

Personally, I'm quite comfortable in my off-the-shelf buck and slugs.

for economy practice with slugs and buckshot. Or if need be, turning a bunch of birdshot into defense rounds, like right now all the local stores are completely empty of buckshot, though they have slugs.

Kymasabe
December 25, 2012, 10:01 PM
I wouldn't bother messing with it. I haven't seen the shells you're reloading, but my experience has been, birdshot is usually low-brass and buckshot and slugs are usually high brass. If all you're doing is pulling out the shot and replacing with larger shot, I see no reason why it wouldn't work, but I doubt you'll get the penetration that you'd normally see in a standard buckshot load with high brass and more powder.
Seems like a waste of time...

Pete D.
December 25, 2012, 10:11 PM
Lo brass/ high brass - maybe with factory loads it makes a difference but with reloads, the brass doesn't matter....and then there is the question of how high is high....there is only one low brass hull in this pic....but there is considerable variance.

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/Englishshells.jpg

ccsniper
December 25, 2012, 10:28 PM
I wouldn't bother messing with it. I haven't seen the shells you're reloading, but my experience has been, birdshot is usually low-brass and buckshot and slugs are usually high brass. If all you're doing is pulling out the shot and replacing with larger shot, I see no reason why it wouldn't work, but I doubt you'll get the penetration that you'd normally see in a standard buckshot load with high brass and more powder.
Seems like a waste of time...

Actually the buckshot would be moving around 1200 feet per second, which is exactly what the low recoil rounds are fired at. So in it would be as effective at the same ranges the low recoil stuff is.

Master Blaster
December 26, 2012, 08:38 AM
When the manufacturer make shotshells they extensively pressure test their components to make sure they are safe using advanced equipment. When someone screws with a factory load and reloads it like this there is no way to know if it is safe. Store bought rounds are cheaper and safer than experimental loads like this, especially considering the cost of a blown up shotgun and a trip to the emergency room. Over pressure isn't the only risk here, there is also the possibility of sticking a piece of the wad or even the hull in the barrel, and then firing another round, and Kaboom.

blarby
December 26, 2012, 09:08 AM
Not if you value your time, and add in the expense of a way to melt lead and buy the molds, shotshell reloading press, etc.

It is subjective to how you value your time.

Then even when you get done, you have inferior ammo to what you could have bought already loaded.

I'll have to disagree on that one- my buckshot loads are superior to anything else i've tried in terms of long range patterning.... and my 7/8th oz slug loads won't dislocate your shoulder :)

With that said, I used about 3 #'s of powder, and about 60 pounds of lead to get to where I am.... thats a lot of time in development when you consider the casting, loading, range time, to and fro- etc.

Good loads don't just fall out of the loadbook... you will need to work at it OP !

If all you want is practice ammo?
Just shoot the store bought bird-shot.
A charge of bird-shot in the breadbasket will have him screaming for 911 to come blot his guts up with a sponge and take him to the hospital.

Good advice there ! At hallway distance the wad will probably need to be removed from one or more soft organs :)

Uniquedot
December 26, 2012, 12:22 PM
Is this because of the compression of the shot column pushing into the sides of the wad, increasing friction?

I have read a few different explanations in manuals and one of them was that there was more air space between unbuffered buckshot pellets, but that doesn't explain why it's lower with a slug. There is a bit of info on this subject in the 5th edition of reloading for shotgunners, but no clear explanation as to why.

rcmodel
December 26, 2012, 12:30 PM
A 1 1/8 oz shot charge weighs 492.0 grains.
A 1 1/4 oz shot charge weighs 546.9 grains.
A 9 pellet 00 buck charge weighs 484.2 grains.
A 12 ga slug typically weighs 1 oz, or 437.5 grains.

So it stands to reason the slug would need less pressure to reach the same velocity.

rc

Uniquedot
December 26, 2012, 12:50 PM
So it stands to reason the slug would need less pressure to reach the same velocity.

The last article i read on the subject stated "with equal weights" but this is with the buck though. Some slugs like the Lyman foster weighs 475 grains while the sabot weighs 525 with the stated alloys. Indeed one would be using the data for 1 1/8 with the foster and 1 1/4 with the sabot. I've personally had the best luck with published recipes when using the sabot, but have come up with some good accurate loads with birdshot conversions for the Lee slug when using fast powders. It looks like most all of the buckshot data today is moving toward birdshot conversions or slightly altered loads of the same.

d2wing
December 26, 2012, 03:13 PM
Each load in a manual is tested for pressure curves with engineers using expensive equipment. The variables are more than weight, they include type of shot hull, crimp pressure and each component. They do this so you don't lose eyes and fingers. My eyes are worth more than a box of shells. I don't know how it works and don't want to find out myself.

Zoogster
December 26, 2012, 03:14 PM
Firing the same payload at the same velocity should be fairly similar.
If you start adding more componenets or are using a very restrictive choke that the larger slug needs to squeeze through then you could have some difference in pressure.
However even that shouldn't be enough to cause trouble since most chokes restrict more towards the end as the peak pressures would be coming back down, and most of these bulk shotgun loads are a good margin below SAAMI max pressures.
A rifled barrel will also increase the pressure, having to fight the additional friction of rifling.



I would feel perfectly safe doing so with these shotgun loads. Shotguns are a lot more forgiving with minor payload changes because they work with high overall load weights and low pressures. I wouldn't play with centerfire handgun or rifle ammunition in such a manner because pressure changes are much more dramatic from minor payload or friction changes.
However it is also a fairly slow slug. A lot of the 1 oz factory loads are rated at 1600FPS. That rating is typically from a 26-30" test barrel. I seem to recall Federal using a 30" test barrel.
Now shotgun powders are fast and most of the velocity is gained in the first 8-12" of barrel, but the velocity is still going to be obviously lower in something like a 18-20" barrel compared to velocities in a 30".
So target loads giving a 1200FPS velocity from a 30 inch test barrel are probably giving in the low 1100s, maybe under 1100 FPS from a shorter barrel.
Looking up federal target loads I see 1145 FPS listed as the velocity.
That is probably from a 30" test barrel.

That means it will probably be some rather slow slugs. Perhaps as low as around 1,000 FPS from more common slug and defensive barrel lengths.
That is going to have more drop at range and require necessary elevation adjustments as well. It also obviously is quite a bit less powerful.
It will also not be similar to practicing with full power slugs with different recoil and different points of impact.

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