[BaltimoreBoy]

Theoretical Questions in Reloading

Question 1:
Given two different powders – call them A and B – used for the same application.
Available reloading data shows that 'Starting' and 'Never Exceed' loads for A >= B in all instances.
Is it acceptable to use the starting load for B for powder A when there is no data for A?

Question 2:
Assuming one has data for powder C for an XTP type bullet.
Is it acceptable to use the starting load for C for a regular JHP bullet for which one lacks data?
The rationale being that if the XTP is really different from JHP that the difference would be toward a reduced available volume in the brass and that therefore loading a regular JHP should result in a lower pressure which should be OK.

Question 3:
One has data for powder D for a given cartridge/bullet configuration.
One wishes to load the same type of bullet for which one has no data.
This bullet is 5-15% lighter than the bullet for which one has data.
Is it acceptable to use the starting load for the heavier bullet configuration?
Rationale: the lighter bullet will have less contact with the barrel and a lower inertia thus leading to lower pressure which should be OK.


Big picture question: What do the experienced reloaders do when faced with a lack of data? Do you do the kind of 'thought experiments' I am doing here? Or is that considered too risky to be admissible?
Other than trolling the internet is there any other method? Call the powder manufacturer?

For example, I want to reload 44 spl with a certain powder that is well suited for an older low pressure round. However the manufacturer only lists a single load with a 200 grain jacketed bullet and I would like to try it with other weights and types.

[rcmodel]

call them A and BIf you were to call them Win 231 and Hodgdon HP-38?
They are the same exact powder sold under different names.

The rest of your questions would be easier to answer if you just called a spade a spade as well and said what powder your are talking about.

Saves a lot of guessing, since my crystal ball is in the shop over the holidays for a buff & wax job.

But C & D would generally be yes.

Unless you substitute X bullet for Y bullet and Y bullet is a conventional cup & core bullet.
And X bullet is a solid copper Barnes X-Bullet.

What do the experienced reloaders do when faced with a lack of data?
Im an experianced reloader and there is no lack of data.

I have a book shelf full of old & new reloading manuals, plus internet access to every powder manufactures website.

If there isn't data there somewhere, that is what we like to call a Clue that the powder you want to use is unsuited for the intended use you intend to use it for.

rc

[BaltimoreBoy]

Sorry RC, I was trying to keep things general thinking that would be more useful.

A and B are Ram-Silhouette and Ram-True Blue.

The 44 spl question is about Silhouete where for no reason I can see Ram is only giving a load for a 200 gr Barnes X.

Silhouette is, I gather, a Winchester powder that has been rebranded. (Winchester Action Pistol, I believe.)

The powder seems to perform well for a wide variety of loads with 38 Spl and 45 ACP - with relatively low pressures.

I know that 44 Spl requires even lower pressure than the venerable 38, but it seems to me that if it works for the 200 gr Barnes it is likely to be useful with other projectiles in this caliber. But Ram doesn't give many loads for 44 Spl at all. And all are either copper or jacketed - not even a single lead load.

[rcmodel]

Well, I sure can't help you with Ramshot data, as I wouldn't even consider using it.

Lack of interest in a powder brand + hard to find locally for most everyone = results in lower sales = lack of tested data by the bullet manufactures.

But again in general, if the powder manufacture does not list a certain powder for use with certain bullet weights?

It's because they found problems (incomplete burning, wide SD swings, or pressure spikes) during thier pressure testing in that caliber & bullet weight range.

Otherwise, if they want a versatile powder they can sell a lot of?
Well, they would have tested data for anything it could conceivably be used for.

Like Hodgdon for instance.

rc

[56hawk]

Some of it just depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If it is just target loads you should be just fine with everything you are thinking about. With the starting load be sure to check each time for a squib and it helps to chronograph to know where you are. Then just increase the charge until the velocity come up to an acceptable range and you no longer get large amounts of soot on the sides of the cases.

If you are going for hotter loads I would suggest getting Quickload to predict the pressure. This has worked well for me even doing crazy things like loading 700 grain bullets in my 500 S&W or 100 grain aluminum bullets in my 460 Weatherby.

[Mike 27]

I am gonna leave this alone as I have had a little too much Christmas Cheer....Pretty much what RC said is always my answer or is after I read it....Merry Christmas....

[helotaxi]

Well, I sure can't help you with Ramshot data, as I wouldn't even consider using it.Do explain please.

[readyeddy]

Extrapolating data from one cartridge and applying it to another cartridge sounds too risky. If you can't find data, then there's really no place to start.

The normal approach is to do it backwards from what you're doing. First you find the data and performance you are looking for, then you buy the powder.

[41 Mag]

Another reason one might not find loads with some powders for some calibers is that there simply isn't as much demand for loads in that particular caliber. This isn't to say that there is a lack of inteest in that particular caliber, simply that the powder company hasn't had enough demand to warrant them testing all of the particular bullets in said caliber. I've got Ramshot data going back to '06 and there simply aren't many loads listed for the 44 Spl period.

If you do some looking you will find that while there is an abundant use of Alliant powders, if you go to their website and look at their data, is is limited to Speer bullets, and what ever weights they have in their line. That said, there are plenty of other manufactures who publish data using Alliant powders with a broad selection of loads.

I'm not overly biased in brand names and have a shelf containing most brands of powder. Like RC however, if I cannot find it locally on the shelf I usually won't buy it. Doesn't mean it isn't any good or that it might not give me better performance than what I can easily get, but simply that I am way less interested since I can usually find plenty of data for the powders I can easily get or have access to locally.

I would give Ramshot a call after New Years and see what they recommended. There is a good chance they will put you on the proper loads for the powders in question, or give you data for another better suited powder as RC mentions.

Just a heads up, you might also look at Accurate powders for data as well. They work really well with cast and usually have a good number of loads in several of the more popular weights for caliber.

[BaltimoreBoy]

Interesting feedback.

I chose Silhouette because it (according to data) performed well on a wide variety of loads I was interested in with 38 spl and 45 acp.

Indeed, if you look at the Lee Second Edition, Silhouette sticks out like a sore thumb in certain calibers and loads due to high performance and low pressure. Of course I realize these are the Mfg.'s results with a longer than typical barrel.

There was a display container at Graf&Sons. They didn't happen to have stock, but cheerfully offered to get some and did within a week - holiday rush and all. So for me it was easy to get.

Of course, though I am just starting out, I do have some H110 and HS6 for right now, and some H4895 when I'm ready to try my hand at 308.

I will indeed give them a ring after the first of the year.

Does anybody have data for WAP?

[rfwobbly]

Mr Boy -
If you have any doubts or are missing any data about a particular powder, then pick up the phone and call the powder company. There is no need to guess. They have TONS of data that they do no post simply because it's too hard/expensive to their web site keep up-to-date. But not being on the web site doesn't mean they don't have the data.

Have a FAX number or email address ready. I once called about Solo 1250 and got 15 faxed pages back !!

Just pick up the phone. ;)

[Walkalong]

Is it acceptable to use the starting load for B for powder A when there is no data for A?
No.

The answer is in the details, and we don't have any details. Reloading is about details and following the proven data for a particular powder and bullet weight/type combination.

Assuming one has data for powder C for an XTP type bullet.
Is it acceptable to use the starting load for C for a regular JHP bullet for which one lacks data?
Mostly, but not always.

One has data for powder D for a given cartridge/bullet configuration.
One wishes to load the same type of bullet for which one has no data.
This bullet is 5-15% lighter than the bullet for which one has data.
Is it acceptable to use the starting load for the heavier bullet configuration?For the most part yes. If we can only find 100 Gr bullet data and have a similar 95 Gr bullet, you can safely use the starting data for the heavier bullet and work up.

[56hawk]

I just checked Quickload and they have Ramshot Silhouette as one of the powders. If you give me the bullet data and OAL I could see what it predicts.

[mdi]

Didn't see it mentioned, but to eliminate any lack of data for reloading, I find a load in my manuals before I buy components. On the rare occation that I cannot get close with my reloading manuals, I can work out a safe starting load with a lot of research and testing. But sticking with the components and data from a published manual you will have enough loads/component combinations to last a lifetime...

[918v]

Does anybody have data for WAP?

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Winchester/Winchester1997.pdf

[Grumulkin]

Well, I have encountered situations in which I had to do a bit of extrapolation to find a load using components for which no specific published data was available. I will do it again if needed but it's much easier to use published data.

That said, if you have to ask how to do it, you probably shouldn't be doing it.

[Walkalong]

That's exactly right. Leave that sort of thing to experienced reloaders.

[BaltimoreBoy]

Even more interesting feedback.
In order:

Rfwobbly:I certainly will be calling Ram after the first of the year.

Walkalong: Thanks for the observations. The reason I am asking is to confirm my theoretical appreciation of the factors involved.

mdi: I did check before I bought. I bought on the basis of performance in 38spl and 45 acp. I was wondering about extending to 44spl for which this mfg. has a dearth of data.

918v:Thanks for the link.

Grumulkin&Walkalong: That's why one asks before even thinking about doing something.

[Offfhand]

Quoted from original post:

"Big picture question: What do the experienced reloaders do when faced with a lack of data? Do you do the kind of 'thought experiments' I am doing here? Or is that considered too risky to be admissible?"

This is an interesting question because the key word is "experienced." What do you mean by experienced? Or do you mean expert? Someone who has loaded thousands of rounds of ammo may consider himself experienced and be so judged by others. There are thousands of such "experienced " loaders around, just check the shooting web sites such as this one or visit your local shooting range and "experience" abounds. But are they really experts? There is a huge difference. By your wording such "experienced" handloaders might indeed be at a loss if no loading data is available, and probably will be, so obviously they scarcely qualify as genuine experts. Real experts in the field of handloading, of which there are damn few, typically refer to loading manuals and books (when they refer to them at all) as MSMD, or simply MDs. (Monkey Sees Monkey Does) and are quite capable of generating their own loading data by calculations (By processes similar to that employed in the QUICKLOAD program) and of course by actual testing. I work with experts who routinely generate workable load data by these methods. After all, where do you suppose load data comes from in the first place?

[Clark]

BaltimoreBoy
Is it acceptable to..?

It depends on who you are.
Some people can see the future, while others should lie down and hold still to avoid making mistakes.

It depends on the cartridge.
Some cartridges get loose primer pockets with 10% extra powder.
Some cartridges I can start with 100% extra powder.
If you don't which cartridges those are, maybe you should lie down.

[BaltimoreBoy]

Quoted from original post:

This is an interesting question because the key word is "experienced." What do you mean by experienced? Or do you mean expert? ... But are they really experts? ... Real experts in the field of handloading, of which there are damn few, typically refer to loading manuals and books (when they refer to them at all) as MSMD, or simply MDs. (Monkey Sees Monkey Does) and are quite capable of generating their own loading data by calculations (By processes similar to that employed in the QUICKLOAD program) and of course by actual testing. I work with experts who routinely generate workable load data by these methods. After all, where do you suppose load data comes from in the first place?

Offhand: I probably should have said Expert.

Have you any suggestions on background readings of the sort your experts have mastered for them to generate the load data?

I may not be interested in generating my own loads at this time, but I do have the technical training to understand the issues involved. I am frankly curious about the theoretical details underlying load development.