COL and Hunting


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netweid
December 25, 2012, 03:26 PM
Ok guys new to forum- been a lurker for a couple years.

I've been reloading for myself for about a year. Got into rifle loading about 6 months ago.

My questions..

I've read that you should have at least the diameter of the bullet seated into the neck for proper tension. If so in my 30-06 (Rem 700 bolt gun) that would leave the bullet a long long way from the lands. I've also read that most rifles sweet spot is somewhere between .040 and .010 off the lands.

For info, this gun will except the COL to touch the lands and feed thru the box magazine. If I load to get close to the lands I don't believe I'll have .308 inside the neck if you discount the boat tail section of the bullet.

What's your feedback on getting this close to the lands and having a short seating depth while using it in a hunting application. I want to create the most accurate "hunting" load. I don't want the bullet depth to be so short that it cants the bullet to one side when chambering the round from the box.

Gun: Rem 700 30-06
Bullet : Hornady Interbond 165
Powder: probably H4350 have several to pick from .

Thanks

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rcmodel
December 25, 2012, 03:40 PM
I was never a real big fan of chasing the leade in hunting ammo.
Especially at the expense of giving up seating depth deep enough to provide full neck tension.

The most accurate factory ammo made, and some you might have a hard time equaling with handloads is Match & Varmint ammo.

And they make no attempt to seat long or reach the rifling, or anything else.

Personally, I would much rather have standard length ammo that I don't have to worry about a bullet falling out if I eject a loaded round, or slam the bolt home hard on a follow-up shot.

Whatever small increment in accuracy you might gain by seating long could cost you a hunt if things go south.

rc

netweid
December 25, 2012, 03:43 PM
Kind of my thoughts and I've made some target ammo very long but skeptical for hunting use. Just wanted to see what everyones opinion was for hunting....how when they use what.

NWcityguy2
December 25, 2012, 03:44 PM
I use the guideline of having at least a bullet diameter of seat depth, however here are some things to think about...

- Having enough neck tension to maintain OAL during recoil and feeding only matters to the shells inside your magazine. The cartridge in your chamber isn't going to care.
- You will have to test in your rifle to see if there is any accuracy benefit to seating barely off the lands. Some loads don't mind a bit of jump.
- If these are hunting loads, are they already accurate enough for what you are hunting?

netweid
December 25, 2012, 04:02 PM
They are accurate enough for hunting. But who doesn't want the best?:) I didn't get started reloading for "as good as".

Appreciate the feedback. I'll try it on both ends and test with a full box mag to see if "long" ones push forward.

I guess the other thing I wondered was about pushing them from the box into the chamber when there is less than the diameter in the neck. Didn't know if it was going to introduce cant? Didn't want to waste bullets or efforts if that was a known issue out there.

rcmodel
December 25, 2012, 04:04 PM
It can be.

Longer lever, less neck support for it to act on.

I can't prove it though.
Cause I never did do it.

rc

gamestalker
December 25, 2012, 06:18 PM
Most probably wouldn't agree with the way I load my hunting rounds, but I've been seating them this way for a very long time, and without any problems to date. Although each rifle has it's sweet spot, as do bullets, I have found that the most accurate loads are usually those right up close to the lands. I usually seat them between .020" - .000". I also check them through the action prior to taking them into the field just to make sure I don't have 1 or 2 with longer olgives sticking hard into the lands, so far so good.

But probably the most important thing to watch for is to work your load up from around the lower end of the charge table. Pressures grow significantly higher the closer you get to the lands. But I've also found that velocities are more consistent up close and personal.

As for bullet to neck contact, even with light varmit bullets I still get close to a diameter worth of seated depth. And honestly, I feel as long as the bullet is getting full neck tension and can't be pulled or pushed deeper when bench tested, your good to go.

GS

Walkalong
December 25, 2012, 06:20 PM
I was never a real big fan of chasing the leade in hunting ammo.
Especially at the expense of giving up seating depth deep enough to provide full neck tension.I agree. Forget about the lands. Seat at least one caliber deep (.308 in this case) in the neck.

T Bran
December 25, 2012, 06:31 PM
The other option is to use a bullet that actually likes some jump to the lands such as Barnes TSX or TTSX.
They are a bit pricey but for hunting ammo how many will you really use in a season.
Some guns preform very well with them while others just dont like them.
Just a thought, good hunting and stay safe.

Walkalong
December 25, 2012, 08:23 PM
You'll never hold the difference in the field.

kingmt
December 25, 2012, 08:42 PM
Well tyre most of my target shooting ammo is also my hunting ammo & it is about .015" off. My 770 243 even with 65gr still allows .243" in the neck.

41 Mag
December 26, 2012, 05:52 AM
With all of my rifles I use to hunt, I normally start with what ever lenght will reliably function from the magazine. THere are a couple which don't feed the newer plastic tipped bulets well and they will hang up if seated a touch too long.

Once I am sure the round will chamber fine, I will use that lenght to work upmy loads to start with. I usually look for a max velocity or load with this length, and once I see any signs of pressure I back off at least 2grs and go from there.

If the load is showing some promise, I will then start to tweak the seating depth in a little at a time looking at the velocity and groups. If the velocity starts to go up I will back off the charge weight a touch to adjust, but if nothing is showing a distinct rise in pressure I will go back as much as I feel should be necessary to have found better accuracy then I will work on something else if nothing has gotten better.

Above all else I strive for function and accuracy in my rifles. I might only fire one round through it while hunting or I might dump several magazines if I get into a bunch of hogs. Either way I want to be able to roll the bolt and have the next round chamber with no issues what so ever, and when I settle the scope I want the bullet to go where I aim.

ranger335v
December 26, 2012, 01:09 PM
"I've read that you should have at least the diameter of the bullet seated into the neck for proper tension."

Yeah, we read that 'expert' advice from time to time; it's pure BS. Fact is, we have quite a few cartridges with necks less than a caliber long.

Walkalong
December 26, 2012, 06:39 PM
I disagree that it is pure BS. It is a good rule of thumb for most loading. It is about good neck tension. Yes, some calibers have short necks. They have to be sized a bit tighter to as much neck tension sometimes.

If you are using light neck tension and chasing the lands then it is a moot point, and is not set in stone anyway.

For a hunting load, as the OP is asking about, the jump to the lands is not very important at all in my opinion. Good neck tension is, and seating a calibers worth deep will help gain that. More area, more drag.

And I'll say again, 99.9 % of people in this world will never hold the difference of that way and chasing the lands loading in the field. Not even with a shooting stick. The difference is too small.

This is for hunting loads, where, IMHO, function is far more important than another 1/8" tighter groups. :)

ranger335v
December 26, 2012, 07:13 PM
"For a hunting load, as the OP is asking about, the jump to the lands is not very important at all in my opinion. Good neck tension is, and seating a calibers worth deep will help gain that. More area, more drag."

Really? For any load, perhaps the biggest benefit to finding the best shooting jump/OAL is to control the ignition start pressure and obtain the most consistant burn rate. It has been reasonably posed that the neck of most cartridges will be hard against the chamber wall before a bullet has cleared the neck anyway so bullet "tension" is only moderately dependant on the area of neck contact and drag, if at all.

The value of the interference fit of a bullet is vastly misunderstood. A brief micrometer test of the diameter of a loaded round and the diameter of the same case after the bullet has been pulled will show about 1 thou (or less) difference, varying a bit by caliber. Meaning the limits of the metal's ability to stretch will keep the actual grip to that 1 thou of real difference no matter how much smaller we may make a neck.

The "one caliber" deep legend started in the early days of black powder thon wall metallic cartridges and it wasn't about internal ballistics at all. It was meant to retain bullets in the cases during rough handling and carrying ammo in jeans pockets,

Walkalong
December 26, 2012, 08:34 PM
Well, we will just have to disagree on this one. :)

rcmodel
December 26, 2012, 09:40 PM
And sometimes a .140" jump is more accurate then a .004" jump.

It's not set in stone that the most accurate load with Every bullet, in Every rifle is going to have the bullet breathing on the rifling when you fire it.

You find out whether that is true or not by load testing.

But I'd still vote for standard length hunting ammo that is 4-F.
(Feeds, Fires, & Functions Freely.)

Over any very small degree of accuracy attained by long seating hunting ammo.

rc

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