Civilian stops stabbing spree in with pistol


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Gaiudo
December 27, 2012, 12:28 PM
*snip*

Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. "There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms."

Then, before the suspect could find another victim - a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. "A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith's grabbed him."

http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx

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Dave P
December 27, 2012, 12:30 PM
Nice!

Blackstone
December 27, 2012, 12:53 PM
Always good to hear stories like this

Skribs
December 27, 2012, 12:55 PM
Article is from April but good find.

Why do these articles, which show ACTUAL heroes like this guy or the guy in the recent CA attempted home invasion (not someone doing a job, but someone who does it just to stop evil), get relegated to affiliates' pages and their one or two days in the news, when the mass murderers are heralded on front pages for weeks?

Let's make our heroes known and make responsible defensive use promoted in the news, instead of the opposite.

snakeman
December 27, 2012, 12:56 PM
This is what people don't hear about that everyone should know.

thepumpfaction
December 27, 2012, 12:57 PM
Awesome! I wonder why I didn't see this all over the news this morning.

Skribs
December 27, 2012, 12:59 PM
Awesome! I wonder why I didn't see this all over the news this morning.

Because it happened in April ;)

Seriously, though, why don't we remember it from April? Because it *may* have been buried in a "local stories" section on a subsection of the major news sites, and linked one or a couple times on THR but buried under the other posts.

Gaiudo
December 27, 2012, 01:38 PM
Oops, missed that it was from April. Good catch Skribs.

Though, to your point, I don't remember this making the airwaves back in April.

rondog
December 27, 2012, 01:56 PM
I remember the story, it got a lot of coverage, but probably just on the 'net. But a CCW holder isn't a cop, and shouldn't be trying to capture violent criminals. His CCW permit doesn't authorize him to do that. He should have done what his CCW permit authorizes him to do. JMHO, of course.

Trent
December 27, 2012, 02:12 PM
I remember this. Good article, even if dated.

Skribs
December 27, 2012, 02:14 PM
Rondog, he stopped the threat. I think that's what he should have done.

dbp
December 27, 2012, 02:22 PM
I remember the story, it got a lot of coverage, but probably just on the 'net. But a CCW holder isn't a cop, and shouldn't be trying to capture violent criminals. His CCW permit doesn't authorize him to do that. He should have done what his CCW permit authorizes him to do. JMHO, of course.
I just want to ask -- are you being facetious, or are you seriously saying that this guy should have just stood by and watched this loon kill someone? If you are being serious then I just don't understand your thinking. Are you carrying just to protect yourself?

morcey2
December 27, 2012, 02:26 PM
I remember the story, it got a lot of coverage, but probably just on the 'net. But a CCW holder isn't a cop, and shouldn't be trying to capture violent criminals. His CCW permit doesn't authorize him to do that. He should have done what his CCW permit authorizes him to do. JMHO, of course.
That doesn't make any sense. He used his CCW (assuming it means Concealed Carry Weapon) that he was carrying because of his Utah CFP. He saw someone trying to _kill_ people, thus it was a situation where the use of deadly force is perfectly legal. Drawing his pistol and pointing it at the bad guy is considered deadly force in Utah. You don't have to pull the trigger for it to be considered "authorized use." Are you saying that he should have just shot the guy instead of issuing a command? I'd rather give a guy with a knife a second or two to come to his senses than immediately pull the trigger and have to deal with all of the ensuing drama. If the bad guy would have not immediately, and I mean IMMEDIATELY, dropped the knife, he would have been dead. I believe the good guy in this situation would have done the same thing.

I'm still confused on how he tried to apprehend the criminal? He stopped the situation and no one lost their life. I see that as a good thing. I'm also confused on what you mean by what his permit authorizes him to do. If he pulls his gun, he's obligated to pull the trigger?

Matt

Ragnar Danneskjold
December 27, 2012, 02:30 PM
But a CCW holder isn't a cop, and shouldn't be trying to capture violent criminals. His CCW permit doesn't authorize him to do that. He should have done what his CCW permit authorizes him to do.

And of course that's exactly what he did. Utah, like many states, explicitly defines that one may use deadly force in defense of a third party.


Utah Criminal Code
76-2-402. Force in defense of person -- Forcible felony defined.
(1) (a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that force or a threat of force is necessary to defend the person or a third person against another person's imminent use of unlawful force.

So YES, his CCW permit absolutely authorized him to do that.
And more importantly, his humanity authorized him to do that.

morcey2
December 27, 2012, 02:32 PM
What the dude with the Scandinavian name said! ;)

Skribs
December 27, 2012, 02:32 PM
Dbp, I think he was suggesting the opposite. That he is not an arresting officer, so instead of detaining the BG he should have just shot him. At least, that's how I read it.

blarby
December 27, 2012, 02:38 PM
So YES, his CCW permit absolutely authorized him to do that.
And more importantly, his humanity authorized him to do that.

here, here !

Ragnar Danneskjold
December 27, 2012, 02:40 PM
Dbp, I think he was suggesting the opposite. That he is not an arresting officer, so instead of detaining the BG he should have just shot him. At least, that's how I read it.

I don't think that would have been better. In fact, it would have been much worse. The CCW holder would still have committed homicide (assuming the attacker died). Self-defense/defense of others is only an affirmative defense, not an excuse. Shooting the attacker would have put him in some form of legal hot water, at least temporarily.

The stabbing stopped and no one else got hurt. Sounds like win.

morcey2
December 27, 2012, 02:49 PM
On top of that, he didn't detain the BG, he just gave him great motivation to voluntarily disarm. All of the others who subsequently tackled him were the ones doing the detaining.

rondog
December 27, 2012, 02:58 PM
Jeeze, don't try to read so much into what I said. Your permit authorizes you to protect yourself, your family, and any other third parties that may be in danger. It doesn't make you a crimefighter.

People getting hurt? Use the force you're authorized to, if necessary.

Store being robbed and nobody getting hurt? No authorization for deadly force, stand back and watch, but be prepared to act.

Businesses have insurance for theft and robberies. When innocent people are being attacked, that's a whole 'nother story.

If I'm at a public place and some nutbag starts stabbing people, I'm going to shoot him until he stops. If you make him drop his weapon and get down on the floor, then what? You have a prisoner, and you're standing there with a gun in your hand. When the cops arrive, who do you think they're going to assume is the bad guy?

Do what you think is best. To me, that means stop the threat and re-holster. I'm not going to be holding a gun when the cavalry arrives, and I'm not going to try to restrain any prisoners. Of course, every situation is different, there may be other people there who can help, and etc.

I'm not bloodthirsty and itching to shoot bad guys, but I'm also not going to risk my neck trying to capture a violent animal, or risk getting shot myself by the responders because I have a gun in my hand. If it's him or me, it ain't gonna be me. If he readily gives up and assistance is available to restrain him, then he will be unharmed.

The whole idea is to stop people from getting hurt and/or killed. If the bad guy gets hurt and/or killed as a result of someone trying to stop him, that's unfortunate, but it may be necessary. But I'm not a cop or Batman, I'm not going to wade in and try to stop him physically, I'm much too old and lame for hand to hand combat.

morcey2
December 27, 2012, 03:08 PM
Jeeze, don't try to read so much into what I said. Your permit authorizes you to protect yourself, your family, and any other third parties that may be in danger. It doesn't make you a crimefighter. People getting hurt? Use the force you're authorized to. Store being robbed and nobody getting hurt? No authorization for deadly force, stand back and watch, but be prepared to act. Businesses have insurance for theft and robberies. When innocent people are being attacked, that's a whole 'nother story.

If I'm at a public place and some nutbag starts stabbing people, I'm going to shoot him until he stops. If you make him drop his weapon and get down on the floor, then what? You have a prisoner, and you're standing there with a gun in your hand. When the cops arrive, who do you think they're going to assume is the bad guy?

Do what you think is best. To me, that means stop the threat and re-holster. I'm not going to be holding a gun when the cavalry arrives, and I'm not going to try to restrain any prisoners. Of course, every situation is different, there may be other people there who can help, and etc.

I'm not bloodthirsty and itching to shoot bad guys, but I'm also not going to risk my neck trying to capture a violent animal, or risk getting shot myself by the reponders because I have a gun in my hand. If it's him or me, it ain't gonna be me. If he readily gives up and assistance is available to restrain him, then he will be unharmed.

The whole idea is to stop people from getting hurt and/or killed. If the bad guy gets hurt and/or killed as a result of someone trying to stop him, that's unfortunate, but it may be necessary. But I'm not a cop or Batman, I'm not going to wade in and try to stop him physically, I'm much too old and lame for hand to hand combat.

Stabbings generally involve the stabbee being in very close proximity to the stabber, whom you would be shooting. This was also in a relatively busy store where any overpenetration would be an issue. You're right to be concerned about police mistaking the good guy for the perp in a case like this, but that didn't happen, did it?

The bolded/italicized/underlined portion of you post is exactly what happened! Had the good guy reacted the way you suggest, that wouldn't have been possible unless he was a horrible shot.

Matt

Ankeny
December 27, 2012, 03:20 PM
Your permit authorizes you to protect yourself, your family, and any other third parties that may be in danger. In my state, my permit authorizes me to carry a concealed firearm, period. The person who intervened apparantly took the appropriate course of action. Kudos to him for having enough smarts (and balls) to stop the situation with the least amount of force.

dbp
December 27, 2012, 03:48 PM
Dbp, I think he was suggesting the opposite. That he is not an arresting officer, so instead of detaining the BG he should have just shot him. At least, that's how I read it.
Oh - OK. Well, as others have stated, that wouldn't have been my choice. But then that is just MY choice.

Skribs
December 27, 2012, 03:52 PM
I think there's three lines of thinking in stopping a mass murderer. One is said in other threads (don't do anything unless he is a direct threat to you), but isn't said here because it is clear that the BG was stopped by GG action. The second is to use voice commands before deadly force, and the third is to use deadly force first.

Obviously deadly force would only be used if you're sure it was justified, but there's a tactics question there. It is the same question as "do you shout 'I'm armed!' or wait for the home invader to enter your line of fire" or to a lesser extend the tactics side of OC vs. CC.

flyskater
December 27, 2012, 04:04 PM
A good guy with a gun won't make national headlines.
A bad guy with a gun is all over the news worldwide.

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