shooting stances for competition


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fishblade2
December 27, 2012, 06:39 PM
Is is common to see weaver stances in competition (Prefereable IDPA or 3 gun)? I know that the isosceles stance is what I see most of the time but even with some practice (not a whole lot yet) I cannot get very stable with this stance. Is this stance used because most shots are not that far or hard to hit so stability is not extremely important or is that just the stance that everyone takes up and just learns and practices until they are most stable with it?

Thanks for the help!

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AFDavis11
December 27, 2012, 08:39 PM
I don't put much focus on my stance. Footwork is important, but I'm never in one place long enough to think about stance beyond being stable, getting to each shooting position quickly (in a shooting position) and aiming carefully at each target.

I like to lean slightly into the gun's recoil. I compete with a revolver so "stance" is a little different than typical.

IMO, if you have to expend time getting into a stance for accurate shooting, you might need more practice. Sometimes I'm leaning hard left, right, or I might even be crouching into a barrel. I once ran a stage that required shooting from a Jacobs ladder, the kind that spins on its axis and throws your butt into the ground. I had a hard time simply traversing it, let alone engaging targets.

I would practice from whatever position you find stable and can move quickly from.

56hawk
December 27, 2012, 09:18 PM
Is is common to see weaver stances in competition?

I see a few people at my local USPSA matches. They are always the ones who place at the bottom of the list though. I find the isosceles stance to be a lot faster for recoil control and transitions. Also find it to be the most accurate for me, with the only difference being that it I am just target shooting I lean back instead of leaning forward.

mgmorden
December 27, 2012, 10:13 PM
I see a few people at my local USPSA matches. They are always the ones who place at the bottom of the list though.

That's what I've generally noticed too. A lot of the law-enforcement guys have it so hard-coded that they look almost mechanical going through a stage. Most of them are pretty accurate, but their times are terrible.

Most of the top shooters don't really do anything resembling a "stance". They'll shoot standing on one foot leaning around a barricade if its faster. Virtually all of them shoot while moving if possible.

My basic conclusion that I've come to is that "stance" for me is in the hands. Hold the gun with a proper grip and keep the sights aligned.

9mmepiphany
December 27, 2012, 10:26 PM
Is is common to see weaver stances in competition (Prefereable IDPA or 3 gun)?

Since the True Weaver and the Modern Isosceles use the same foot placement...unless you are referring more to a Chapman... I take it that you are talking about arm geometry and grip pressure/tension.

The reason many newer shooters (with less experience) tend toward the Weaver geometry is that they don't really understand recoil management. They still believe in push/pull tension and pulling the gun back down from recoil is a faster way to go. I makes a lot of sense to folks who believe in controlling the gun through strength/musculature.

You really need to be shown how to let recoil bring the gun back to the original POA for you. It's just like learning how to break a shot as your arms reach extension during a draw. how a DA first shot isn't slower or less accurate than a SA one or how to shoot faster than 5 shots/sec

murf
December 28, 2012, 04:24 PM
9mm,

do you have a link to any help for the items in your third paragraph? i'd be interested.

murf

9mmepiphany
December 28, 2012, 09:59 PM
The first two items are covered in the 2nd link in my signature, the third is covered in the 3rd link...the 1st link is to enable you to do the other two.

I'm still scripting the videos

Deer_Freak
December 28, 2012, 10:05 PM
You will only have one or two courses of fire where a weaver stance is more practical in an IDPA event. The isosceles stance should come natural once you start moving or shooting from cover. Everyone should learn the weaver stance and be comfortable with it. There is a time and a place for everything.

1SOW
December 29, 2012, 03:10 AM
Everyone should learn the weaver stance and be comfortable with it.

Why should I learn to be comfortable with a stance that doesn't work well for what I shoot?

Practice a shooting method for what you do.

murf
December 29, 2012, 12:17 PM
thx, 9mm

murf

9mmepiphany
December 29, 2012, 03:10 PM
Why should I learn to be comfortable with a stance that doesn't work well for what I shoot?
The best example I can think of is the StressFire Star which allow you to transverse 270 degrees from one position.

Another might be when moving laterally across a target array on your support side

Deer_Freak
December 29, 2012, 07:34 PM
Why should I learn to be comfortable with a stance that doesn't work well for what I shoot?

Practice a shooting method for what you do.
I was responding to the OP, not the peanut gallery. The weaver stance does work for IDPA matches.

Jim Watson
December 29, 2012, 08:09 PM
I have trouble with the term "stance."
To me, a stance is what you do with your feet. The Weaver stance and the Isoceles stance do have preferred foot placement as well as a specified grip on the gun.

There are a lot of times in action shooting like IDPA and USPSA that you are not able to position your feet like the picture in the book. And if you dance around trying to get to it, you are burning time better spent on "front sight, press, front sight, press."

And as far as recoil control goes, the rules for that have changed. Modern guns don't kick as much as they used to. Typical calibers are smaller, power factors are lower than they used to be. And in USPSA, compensators are effective.

Sam1911
December 29, 2012, 08:10 PM
I'll agree that you do see it used, but generally by older shooters who've been shooting pistols for a while (maybe a long time) but who've never been put into challenging high-speed shooting with lots of movement and transitions. They do tend to place fairly low in the rankings, but that has at least as much to do with not being used to the pace and intensity of competition as it does with the inherent awkwardness of the Weaver stance.

Remember, even Isosceles is going to seem awkward to them until they get used to the more fluid, more adaptable, more balanced and stable modern stance.

9mmepiphany
December 29, 2012, 08:23 PM
Oft time I'll see a Weaver shooter at a match who approaches a position that requires the use of cover. Almost without fail, they will crowd that cover. The other thing they have to do id shift the trailing foot (really more a person shooting from the Chapman) when slicing the pie

fishblade2
December 31, 2012, 12:48 AM
I can see that weaver stance is not common and that mostly I need to focus on my recoil management, grip and trigger pull. Any good videos or articles over this?

ATLDave
December 31, 2012, 01:31 PM
I can see that weaver stance is not common and that mostly I need to focus on my recoil management, grip and trigger pull. Any good videos or articles over this?

Buy this book. http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Shooting-Fundamentals-Brian-Enos/dp/0962692506/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1356978630&sr=1-1&keywords=brian+enos Read it. Prepare to be enlightened.

9mmepiphany
December 31, 2012, 02:29 PM
You'll likely have to read it more than once...there are a lot on nuances

gotigers
December 31, 2012, 10:29 PM
Pistol: Isosceles stance whenever possible. At least from the waist up. I use the push pull draw method. Push the pistol torwards the target. Once you have sight alignment, keep the pistol up and eyes/sights aligned as much as possible and twist at your waist. The triangle of your shoulders and gun should move as a whole.

Rifle/shotgun: Elbows tucked, left hand as far out on the forend as i can get it with the thumb over the top. Head not to far bent down. Stock just to the inside and up of my shoulder pocket. Keep the rifle mounted and eyes thru sights as much as possible.

Walking: I try to find a spot to shoot from as much as i can to save time. If i have to move and shoot, I move with knees slightly bent using heal, toe walking. This will allow me to keep my shoulders from moving to much and keeps me level.

Both eyes open 95% of the time when aiming/shooting.

Deer_Freak
January 1, 2013, 05:41 AM
Oft time I'll see a Weaver shooter at a match who approaches a position that requires the use of cover. Almost without fail, they will crowd that cover. The other thing they have to do id shift the trailing foot (really more a person shooting from the Chapman) when slicing the pie
I shot in an IDPA match. It was my first and only match. There was a course of fire that was all steel at around 20 yards. I won that course by a mile. Why? Because I was the only one there that could execute a weaver stance.

IDPA is a joke anyway. Who ever made the rules knows nothing about handguns. DA/SA pistols like the Beretta 92 or the Ruger P95 were not designed to be carried with the safety/decocker engaged. Both pistols are just as safe as a revolver with no safety.

BILLG
January 1, 2013, 09:18 AM
Deer Freak you need to be more familiar with IDPA rules.You don't have to have the saftey on with a Da/Sa pistol.I have shot many matches with a Beretta 92 and S&W 5906.The people who designed IDPA have more handgun knowledge than probably most people here.Bill Wilson,Ken Hackathorn,Larry Vickers,Walt Rauch,John Sayle and Dick Thomas all have the real world knowledge to make IDPA one of the if not the best game out there.

Sam1911
January 1, 2013, 10:23 AM
Let's consider this piece by piece...

I shot in an IDPA match. ... There was a course of fire that was all steel at around 20 yards. So, you DIDN'T shoot an IDPA match at all. There are no "all steel" Courses of Fire in IDPA. Shots on steel targets are limited to no more than 25% of shots required in that COF.

I won that course by a mile. Why? Because I was the only one there that could execute a weaver stance. Unless the Match Director required Weaver and the other shootes were unfamilliar with it, you couldn't have won because of the Weaver stance. It has no inherant accuracy advantage.

As some have said, it can be a "tool in the toolbox" as some presentations and cover opportunities might be shot well using the more bladed, bent-elbow position (though precious few). But it's more like a compression gauge than a 9/16ths wrench (;)). You sure don't need to pull it out of the tool box very often!

IDPA is a joke anyway. Who ever made the rules knows nothing about handguns. DA/SA pistols like the Beretta 92 or the Ruger P95 were not designed to be carried with the safety/decocker engaged. Both pistols are just as safe as a revolver with no safety.Ok...so you aren't actually familiar with the IDPA rules at all, are you? One might be tempted to say that complaining about rules that don't exist is sort of a joke...

Jim Watson
January 1, 2013, 01:48 PM
Let me make one thing perfectly clear, Deer Freak; you did NOT shoot an IDPA match.
I don't care what the organizer called it, he was NOT following IDPA rules and procedures.
IDPA does NOT allow "all steel" stages.
IDPA does NOT require that the safety of a DA-SA pistol be kept engaged.

IDPA ought to start suing these outlaw matches for misuse of their name.
I am probably going to start shooting in an outlaw match after they close down our local range next month, but I will keep the oddities fixed in my mind.

9mmepiphany
January 1, 2013, 02:27 PM
Who ever made the rules knows nothing about handguns. DA/SA pistols like the Beretta 92 or the Ruger P95 were not designed to be carried with the safety/decocker engaged. Both pistols are just as safe as a revolver with no safety.
I do seem to recall in the dark recesses of my mind a time when DA/SA pistols were required to start with their slide mounted safeties engaged. At that time, the only such pistols were the Walther P-38 and the S&W M-39 (I don't think the M-59 had yet been introduced)...thinking early 70s

These were IPSC matches (because USPSA didn't yet exist) and that rule was laid down by Jeff Cooper...who also advocated lower the hammer by thumb and trigger :eek:

Because I was the only one there that could execute a weaver stance. That is an interesting conclusion you've arrived at. Perhaps you'll share the basis of it.

Especially given that the Weaver has no demonstrated inherent advantage in accuracy and a distinct demonstrated disadvantage in target transitions...both at the entry level and much more apparently at the top levels of shooting

GCBurner
January 10, 2013, 05:00 PM
One of the things I like about IDPA is the variety of "stances" that can come up. Standing solidly in one spot and taking careful aim at a bullseye target, and slowly squeezing off a shot at a known distance doesn't come up too often. You might be shooting walking forward, backward, or across the range while firing, down on one knee or prone, leaning out from cover on the left or right, shooting strong hand only or weak hand only, drawing from a holster, box, or drawer, or shooting at targets moving towards you, away from you, across the range, waving from side to side, or popping up for a second and then disappearing. Variety is fun.

Sam1911
January 10, 2013, 10:49 PM
One of the things I like about IDPA is the variety of "stances" that can come up. Standing solidly in one spot and taking careful aim at a bullseye target, and slowly squeezing off a shot at a known distance doesn't come up too often. You might be shooting walking forward, backward, or across the range while firing, down on one knee or prone, leaning out from cover on the left or right, shooting strong hand only or weak hand only, drawing from a holster, box, or drawer, or shooting at targets moving towards you, away from you, across the range, waving from side to side, or popping up for a second and then disappearing. Variety is fun.That's absolutely true, but you'll find as you watch the guys who are really good in IDPA (or USPSA) they'll all be using an upper body posture that is the modern isosalese "stance." It really isn't a stance, as we might think of it in terms of position rifle shooting or bullseye. It is a way of arranging the arms, head, and upper torso which gives the most stability, mobility, and control AS you move, bend, walk, squat, twist, pie cover, etc. What's going on below the waist becomes irrelevant. Some have made the comparison of making a "turret" out of your upper body that stays stable and in the same position no matter what amount of lean, or movement, or kneeling, or whatever is induced upon it.

The instances where you really need to break the support side elbow and go to more of a Weaver stance are pretty few and far between. Pretty much just some instance where you're forced to crowd cover or go very low, etc. The rest of the time good shooters will be holding the same UPPER body "stance" no matter what their lower body is doing.

jmorris
January 12, 2013, 07:25 PM
5 gun master in IDPA here, shoot from one foot all the time. Though it is a bad position to shoot from, it is fast, sometimes.

Thing is, there is no one stance that is best from every shooting position.

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