Why buy American made?


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Eleanor416Rigby
December 27, 2012, 10:19 PM
Of the handfull of firearms I own and have owned, most actually were made in the USA. However, I don't check for a stamp saying "Made in USA" before I buy.

I buy the best quality I can afford.

Competition is what made this country great. If we give US manufacturers a pass and buy their products even when they are lower quality or overpriced then it does not compel them to do better. Cronyism, Nepotism, the Good Ol' Boy system, or whatever you want to call it is a slow-developing cancer. We the consumers are the ones who stand to suffer from it.

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Cesiumsponge
December 27, 2012, 10:25 PM
The "buy American" jingoism is overplayed. Buying the best product is how we show the market what we want. I will not pay more to settle for less simply because it's made here. And what we end up with is an East German Trabant or Chrysler K-car and a lack of incentive to make anything better because it sells well.

Keep in mind that buying the best product is a markedly different philosophy than "buy cheap stuff". People that want to buy the cheapest product aren't necessarily looking for quality goods that'll last. There are people looking for a good product at a good price and folks that simply want the cheapest product to satisfy their requirement.

CountGlockulla
December 27, 2012, 10:27 PM
^^ Im with that guy.

All countries are capable of making good firearms. And since foreign firearms must at least have an importer you still are supporting American jobs.

Eleanor416Rigby
December 27, 2012, 10:48 PM
Agreed on the difference between best value and "cheap stuff".

I can't afford to buy cheap firearms, because I can be a little rough on the equipment at times. I would have to buy replacements. To me, the increase in functional quality of a high end firearm does not justify the increase in price. (Usually the biggest gains are in looks at the high end.) I usually find the best value for me is in the tier or two just above the cheap tier.

I had a buddy that scoffed at my springfield XD 9mm subcompact: "Made in Croatia" he said with a little bit of disdain. His 9mm is a smith & wesson sigma. (I won't own a smith&wesson of any quality made anywhere, for my own political reasons, but the sigma...)

Redlg155
December 27, 2012, 10:55 PM
The Sigma series wasn't Smith and Wessons proudest moment. I Still remember the .380 Sigma that was rumored to self destruct after a predetermined amount of rounds.

hogshead
December 27, 2012, 10:58 PM
I sure do like Ruger.

colorado_handgunner
December 27, 2012, 11:03 PM
Because I work in manufacturing and have seen people loose their jobs to overseas, cheap labor. I buy everything American made that I can afford.

Now if American made was subpar to foreign made I might see a point, but American quality is generally great. Why support other countries with jobs when we can support our own country in our buying?


I refuse to buy a foreign automobile or firearm.

Like the Country song says about people like me, "He's just made in America"

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

nathan
December 27, 2012, 11:09 PM
So far , i got Colt . Ruger, Remington, HRA and Marlin guns in my collection.

Cesiumsponge
December 27, 2012, 11:18 PM
I work in aerospace manufacturing and I have seen some of the laziest people in my life in this field. There are lazy no-good people of every shape, size and color on every continent on Earth.

The last two American cars I owned were Mopar pieces of junk that didn't last past 100k miles. And I'm a big Mopar fan. One simply fell apart on everything. The other had horrific transmission and axle issues. The engine was flawless, but that's because they came with a Mitsubishi 6G72 :D It left a bad enough taste that I won't bother ever consider the brand again.

I'm much happier with my Toyota with 100k miles and the only problem I've had was a $7 bulb that burnt out in the console, and most of it is made in America. Did we forget other countries offshore jobs to America? Did you ever see the sticker on "American cars" and see how much of it is made in Mexico or Canada? Lets just tell all foreign companies to pack up and head back home perhaps and fire all the Americans they employ?

I was stuck between two rifles and ended up with a Finnish Sako TRG-22. The only other comparable rifle was the British AI AW. If America had anything remotely close, I would have considered them as a contender. I also own plenty of Colts, Remingtons, and Rugers. Best product and best value wins at the end of the day. I'm not a cheapskate by far. I pay the asking prices for US-made Danners and US-made Allen Edmonds.

backbencher
December 27, 2012, 11:22 PM
"Like the Country song says about people like me, "He's just made in America"

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD"

That's irony, right there.

barnbwt
December 27, 2012, 11:25 PM
I'd like to always buy American, but I'll never "choose" to buy American. Companies in this country have to earn my dollars same as anyone else.

The slogan should be; "Buy the Best: Made in America"

I work in aerospace manufacturing and I have seen some of the laziest people in my life in this field.
Damn, it's not just my place of work, then...

TCB

toivo
December 27, 2012, 11:26 PM
I own firearms made in England, Italy, Germany, Austria, Finland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Russia, Bulgaria, Argentina, Brazil, and the good old U.S. of A. Probably about half of them are American-made. Most of the Eastern European stuff is historical.

Steel Horse Rider
December 27, 2012, 11:27 PM
You beat me to it backbencher.

Eleanor416Rigby
December 27, 2012, 11:32 PM
If two firearms are otherwise equal, I'll go with the American made one.

Most of my firearms are of the hunting variety, and the US makers do very well in that genre. So, it turns out most of my arms are in fact made in the USA.

9mm pistols, however are another story.

I respect the position, Colorodo Handgunner, of resisting outsourcing (edit: offshoring is apparently a more accurate term) of US jobs. I won't take it so far as to reward US manufacturers in those cases when the imports are better value.

Cesiumsponge
December 27, 2012, 11:37 PM
Outsourcing and offshoring are two different things.

Offshoring is doing outsourcing outside the USA.

Outsourcing is simply not doing something in-house. Example: we outsource our work to a local vendor for physical vapor deposition coatings. We aren't set up for that type of work. We aren't offshoring the process to China or Canada. Most companies outsource work, especially in manufacturing. It's simply too expensive and costly to do every manufacturing step in-house unless you're a giant corporation. Even giant corporations outsource. Boeing outsources work to us. They're the backbone to all the aerospace manufacturing companies in this area of my state.

nathan
December 27, 2012, 11:53 PM
Talking of lazy self conceited workers, i ve seen it many many times. Made in America is a misnomer especially in quality. I go by excellent reviews and my personal take of the products at hand.

browningguy
December 28, 2012, 12:03 AM
If we give US manufacturers a pass and buy their products even when they are lower quality or overpriced then it does not compel them to do better.

American products are rarely of poorer quality these days. However they are often "overpriced". It seems it's difficult to compete with Chinese labor at $5 per day, unless of course you know a bunch of Americans that can afford to work for that.

ricebasher302
December 28, 2012, 12:07 AM
I own Glock and CZ and FN products, and I really like them.

What I won't support is American companies outsourcing their production. It's not about quality, but jobs, and I believe firmly in this. I don't think it should be illegal, but I choose not to support it (when possible).

Frequently (NOT always), American products are not overpriced, but instead, outsourced products are "underpriced". This is why I'm all for American capitalism, but not globalization. Foreign manufacturers should be able to compete in our economy, but we've not leveled the playing field enough to preserve our own economic integrity. That, in conjunction with our leaders' spending habits is why we're where we are now.

dogtown tom
December 28, 2012, 12:08 AM
backbencher "Like the Country song says about people like me, "He's just made in America"

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD"
That's irony, right there.
Yup :D

Eleanor416Rigby
December 28, 2012, 12:11 AM
I doubt that quality firearms are made for $5.00 per day labor. Unless you know of quality guns made for $5.00 per day in China, then you're just throwing out a cliche.

You may be right that US products are rarely of poorer quality. If we all were to buy only US products no matter what, then we wouldn't be able to say that for long. As I mentioned in the OP, competition is what made the USA and US products great. Competition is needed to keep them great too.

Cesiumsponge
December 28, 2012, 12:14 AM
American companies generally make good products because American competition weeds out most crappy American companies. It's hard to start up a crappy company and stay in business without government intervention/bailouts/subsidies.

Eleanor416Rigby
December 28, 2012, 12:32 AM
I will not settle for "not crappy" if I don't have to. Sure the market will weed out the low end. I will buy the best value, no matter whose label is on it.

Ehtereon11B
December 28, 2012, 05:11 AM
When it comes to firearms I don't go out of my way to buy American, it just happens that way. I have more Rugers, Marlins, and Remingtons than I have Walthers, Taurus etc.

guyfromohio
December 28, 2012, 06:00 AM
I do my best to buy non-union.....legalized racketeering. Send the UAW a thank you note for our current predicament.

sleepyone
December 28, 2012, 06:08 AM
I buy American only but I also only buy quality. Fortunately, there are enough gun companies that meet both criteria that I don't have to worry about buying a foreign make to get the quality I want; Ruger, Mossberg, Winchester (OK, its owned by FN), Marlin, S&W, Dan Wesson, Remington (Pre-Freedom Group)

Dean1818
December 28, 2012, 06:43 AM
I buy American when I can

There are plenty of quality made in America choices to pick from.

I see people falling all overthemselves to save 10 bucks.

If its within 20 percent, and of similar quality....... Its made in America for me.

guyfromohio
December 28, 2012, 06:49 AM
I'm more apt to buy local than buy American (targetted buying). I'll pay 5% more at the LGS where they know my name as opposed to big box, online, or "take a number please".

Sobel
December 28, 2012, 07:07 AM
I find soviet steel to be more overall reliable , never have I said I want a tokarev and everyones said no they suck. But you mention a brand of AR that isn't one of the top three and everyones talking trash.

Sav .250
December 28, 2012, 09:05 AM
If "American made" is the best for the money, I see no reason not to buy.
There are items, that from the get-go were superior to American made. Still are.
When companies went from "hands on " to the stamp it out mentality to lesson costs, quality seemed to have gone down hill. Which hastened the move to over-seas markets. Enter China.

Todays market place is filled with crap. It`s your money, buy where ever the quality is still held to a high standard. Be it American or who ever.

Pilot
December 28, 2012, 10:08 AM
I do my best to buy non-union.....legalized racketeering. Send the UAW a thank you note for our current predicament.


I do too, and believe that unions have done the most harm in sending good manufacturing jobs overseas. Still, I buy from Colt, which is union as I've seen an improvement in their products over the last several years, and still think they offer a good value for what you get, so why penalize them. Could it be made better and less expensively non-union? Sure, but I think they're doing as best they can under the cirmcustances of their location in CT.

The country of origin of a firearm means nothing to me. I buy based on what I want, quality, and value. I have firearms from U.S. companies as well as foreign. They all shoot great.

gym
December 28, 2012, 11:06 AM
I buy what I like. I sure won't buy anything that's junk from anyone. I happen to like German, cars and all my guns except Glocks are American, I think Glocks are still made or assembled in Georgia.
The rest are springfield S&W, and Benelli along with a local FL manufacturer. If someone makes a shotgun or rifle I like, I will buy it from whoever made it. as half the time just because it says made in the USA, it dosen't mean it was. It may just be assembled here by a foreign company.
I also like to buy things that hold their value.

76shuvlinoff
December 28, 2012, 05:53 PM
I prefer American made, sometimes I can't get it.

The quality of American made products has dropped because American consumers demand lower pricing, American workers sure don't want their pay cut and American board members still demand a profit. Somewhere in there pride of workmanship got trashed along with long term vision, enter the fiscal cliff.

So the problem is us but as long as there is someone to point a finger at, carry on.



.

colorado_handgunner
December 28, 2012, 10:01 PM
A lot of good points made here, but I think it ultimately comes down to personal choice. I choose to only buy American cars and guns. Others don't. I can certainly respect the well argued reasons why stated in this thread. I even used some of them in the past.

Thankfully we live in a free and prosperous nation where we can choose what guns we buy, and that we can buy guns at all.

Cheers to a good discussion guys.

(And yes I realize the Nexus 7 I typed this on is made overseas. There are no tablets made in this country :()

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

colorado_handgunner
December 29, 2012, 01:01 AM
LOL. Sound like my 94 year old dad. As we use computers, cell phone and even basket balls made all in China...LOL I AM ONLY GOING TO BUY AMERICAN!!!

The reason some of us may sound the same is because we have seen the results of off shoring first hand.

I have had to watch as over 100 people lost their jobs in a plant I worked at to cheap labor in Brazil.

I daily have driven by a 75,000 square foot building on the plant property that used to hum with numerous jobs making a product that the company sold for 100 years. That building is now empty and the product is made in China.

I have spoken daily to a customer in the midwest after his plant was slated for closure and moving to Mexico. I listened to the despair and resignation in his voice grow more each day as the closure date approached when he and over 1,000 other people will walk out the plant for the last time.

I watched as an entire department was laid off at Thanksgiving, after management had promised them the product that was just sent to Mexico would stay in our plant along with the jobs.

Finally, watching as a whole town slowly decays and is overcome by poverty and crime as one by one the major employers pack up and move elsewhere.

So yes, while I am young, I may sound like some of the old timers. I just have seen the human cost far, far to many time to embrace "Free trade" with open arms. For it certainly is not free, because the cost is paid by those here at home.

This is why I buy American made, whenever possible. Sadly, as I illustrated above, in some industries we no longer have an option to buy American because those plants and the jobs with them are long gone from our shores for good.

(Steps down off soapbox and quietly exits thread)

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence"
George Washington

"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have,"
Gerald Ford

Cesiumsponge
December 29, 2012, 02:28 PM
Why isn't anyone blaming state and federal government, and other Americans using government to impose restrictions on competition? American businesses face the world's highest corporate tax rate, and various other taxes and regulatory expenditures and quasi-extortion which make business cheaper and easier to do elsewhere.

It isn't simply "China has cheaper labor" and "greedy owners". That's the layman's scapegoat to avoid looking at the whole picture.

America and Americans have have made it so incredibly expensive to do business in America that it's cheaper to send it all overseas, or simply break the law and hope they can get away with it. In the business world, businesses have always used government to try screwing over their competition. Being in aerospace, I saw Boeing use subsidies and special contracts lobbied by our two state Senators. These two also complained in Congress when Airbus used the exact same methods in Europe to garner favor to compete.

Minnesota small business grocers years ago lobbied the state to pass a law to forbid chain supermarkets from having sales to make "fair competition". That only hurt consumers who had to spend more to get the same amount of product and the chain stores simply lowered their prices. Now people are lobbying to have Walmarts banned from low income areas despite the fact they bring in healthy foods in the form of cheaper, fresh produce to these lower income areas who otherwise couldn't afford it and don't have other large supermarkets nearby.

About 5 years ago, a group of small business toy makers banned together to ask big government to do their bidding after a rash of toys from overseas were found with lead. They asked government to require extensive lead testing on toys to prove they were safe, in hopes of stopping China. Government complied and made all sorts of chemical testing mandatory with the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act 2008. Every individual component had to undergo testing. A button, the plastic, every color paint and coating used, a zipper, etc. Big toy corporations easily absorbed the cost. It killed all the small business, small-batch handcrafted toy makers in America who couldn't afford the tens of thousands in regulatory expenditures of expensive laboratory lead testing. They legislated themselves out of existence.

What about occupational licensing boards? Do they inherently create better businesses due to regulatory processes and expensive fees and courses to obtain such licensing? These boards are made up of people already in the industry which lobby the state to make it mandatory to receive a license in opening up a particular business. These licensing boards are run by the people "already in the club". They are the gatekeepers that want their cut before admission, much like unions. They stifle competition by using government to get their way.

Lawyers are occupationally regulated in all 50 states. Does this mean Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, and SCOTUS Benjamin Cardozo were lousy lawyers because they wouldn't have passed the bar exam? When you look for a lawyer, do you ask friends and family if they can "recommend a good one"? Wait! Since they're all regulated and licensed on the up-and-up, shouldn't they all be equally good? Licensing gets rid of any lousy lawyers, right?

What about mechanical engineers and nuclear engineers? That's a pretty critical job. Only 15 and 12 states respectively require licensing. Nuclear power reactor operators are only licensed in two states. Are unlicensed florists going to sell you a product that will kill you? The state of Louisiana prohibits you from being a florist. Selling arrangements of flowers is illegal unless you pay the florist board $2000 and pass a test after classroom instruction. The board defends itself, claiming it protects consumers from purchasing unhealthy flowers. I suppose consumers can't be trusted to buy good looking flowers and need government to tell them which flower vendors are good.

Florida established an Interior Design board and tried to sue a new business owner $25,000 if she didn't do a six-year apprenticeship and pass their test. 15 states require occupational licensing to arrange pillows and couches. Are the 35 unlicensed states full of interior designers practicing poorly-executed accent wall colors and poorly-placed tables that stub toes? Only one state in the country requires occupational licensing to be a sales representative for lobsters. Rhode Island. Other occupations that are regulated in just a couple states include ferret breeders, palm reading, yoga, telemarketing, wallpaper hangers, librarians, lobbyists, and glaziers. Jestina Clayton moved from Sierra Leone, Africa to Utah, USA so she could lead a better life. She started an African hair braiding business out of her home but the government shut her down because she didn't go through a 2,000 hour, 50 week, $18,000 cosmetology course to obtain permission in the form of a license that doesn't even cover African hair braiding. Only 10 states out of 50 require a cosmetology license to braid hair. She picked the wrong state.

You talk about American businesses leaving the country. We haven't even discussed the American businesses that never get started because of the expense of starting one up and occupational cartels that serve as gatekeepers that you have to bribe to "get into the business". That isn't the fault of China. It's the fault of other Americans who want to play dirty, and use government by proxy to get their way.

BSA1
December 29, 2012, 03:21 PM
If you only buy American made firearms you close the door on designs that are innovative and better suited for a specific task.

couldbeanyone
December 29, 2012, 03:58 PM
I buy American only iif the product is of as high quality as the other products available. Made in the U.S.A. used to mean quality. Now it usually just means the product was designed by bean counters and built by a disgruntled workforce.

TennJed
December 29, 2012, 04:36 PM
A lot of good points made here, but I think it ultimately comes down to personal choice. I choose to only buy American cars and guns. Others don't. I can certainly respect the well argued reasons why stated in this thread. I even used some of them in the past.

Thankfully we live in a free and prosperous nation where we can choose what guns we buy, and that we can buy guns at all.

Cheers to a good discussion guys.

(And yes I realize the Nexus 7 I typed this on is made overseas. There are no tablets made in this country :()

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
Not true about the tablet. No offense, but if you really were as serious about buying american as you consider yourself you would do a 30 second google search before you buy a samsung.

http://us.tradekey.com/tablet-pc.htm

"Buy American" really means "buy American when it is easy"

Cesiumsponge
December 29, 2012, 05:06 PM
The last tool I purchased was a Snap-On 1/2" ratchet. I paid Snap-On prices. It's not stamped "USA" or "Made in USA" anywhere at all. Considering how Snap-On brags it's tools are made in the US and how important it is, there is no rational reason to remove the stamping from the tool unless it was NOT made in the USA or they are moving towards offshoring the line.

Buying an American firearm is easy. So how many people here who talk about buying American have American-made footwear, under garments, pants, shirts, and jackets? American-made bags and luggage, furniture, light fixture, light bulbs, other electronics, kitchen appliances, bathroom fixtures, windows, doors? How many have an American car made in America? Did you take a look at parts content label and get a car made with 100% American components? Is your house completely sourced from American lumber, fasteners, nails, fittings, glue, paint, etc? Is your food American sourced? Picked, cleaned, packaged, and delivered by American citizens?

Can you guarantee any of your American made-goods were manufactured on American machinery and American tooling? Our company is filled mostly with Japanese machinery and German tooling. We're making American products, but not on American machines.

How many are purposely complicating their lives in order to fulfill this credo? How far are you willing to go to live up the idea that you can exist on American-only products? Or are you going to just buy a few big things made in America and go home satisfied, despite 90% of everything else you own is made elsewhere? 10% is an F-. Is anyone up around 60%? I'd be surprised if anyone could score a D- on the ratio of American/foreign products list.

mayorgonzo
December 29, 2012, 05:15 PM
Hi-Point! American made with American quality!

idcurrie
December 29, 2012, 06:30 PM
I've bought Remington, Marlin and Savage lately. All have been horribly defective in some way. Some of them in multiple ways. Very poor fit and finish. I have even bought a Win M70 that had a defect.

Come to think of it I haven't bought a firearm made in the USA which hasn't been horribly defective.

The Japanese and European firearms I've bought have had exactly zero defects and the fit and finish has been good.

Based on my experience, I have to conclude that I no longer buy American because American firearms are comparatively poor.

The one exception to my rule is Leupold. I do like them.

jcwit
December 29, 2012, 06:59 PM
My American made Henry .22 is one nice little rifle. But so is my Ruger Single Six, which is also American made.

20thMaine
December 29, 2012, 07:06 PM
Globalization has made "buying American" somewhat of a moot point. Increasingly, only niche companies like Estwing can truly claim to be American-made. As an example, anyone thinking that owning Remington/Marlin/Bushmaster/H&R/Tapco products means that they are purely buying American is mistaken. As part of the "Freedom Group," these companies are owned by Cerberus Capital Management (which, as of late December is trying to sell them off... but that's a different subject). Cerberus owns controlling stakes in many different countries... thus, American products are only a part of their overall business model. So, with that last Remington 870 purchase, you also funded business enterprises in Europe and Asia.

Is this a bad thing? I would argue no... to a point.

A lot of folks have mentioned that buying products made in other countries is "good for competition." On a level playing field in international business, this would be true. Unfortunately, with state "sponsored" manufacturing (like that found in China), the playing field is nowhere near level. In this case, there is very little chance for American business to compete with state-sponsored companies, as the standards of living and level of governmental involvement in China effectively ensures their manufacturing base cannot be undercut.

In markets where the United States can compete with the labor costs of other countries (say, Japan and Germany...) then yes, quality of workmanship fosters greater competition, and is a desirable outcome.

In markets where individuals can be paid pennies and legally worked to death... then it's a different story.

I can't argue that I always buy American. But I do try to buy products made in Democracies/Republics. At least then I feel as though I'm supporting healthy competition.

And for the record, I believe Americans "produce" three things better than any other country on earth: Aircraft, Woodworking, and Women.

Take care.

Texshooter
December 29, 2012, 08:37 PM
I "try" to buy American, but their are several factors I look at.

I owned several firearms made overseas.

As an example, I really like XDs but will not buy them anymore, but not because they are not made in America. During WWII, the Croatians were the most vicious of Nazis. Their actions shocked even the SS. Relavance? Their country is again starting to follow many of the policies they embraced then (national flag, denials, etc). I don't blame the entire people, but I will in no way give my money that will in any way go to any country like that.

Better example perhaps is that I, for over 40 years bought GM cars. After they became gov't motors I will never give them another penny in any way shape or form.

JMO

Cesiumsponge
December 29, 2012, 10:20 PM
So you're not buying Croatian items because of WWII atrocities or because their country is starting to embrace nationalism again, but hasn't taken it to the next level?

blkbrd666
December 30, 2012, 12:43 AM
Hi-Point! American made with American quality!

Good one!...and well played.

CraigC
December 30, 2012, 12:10 PM
I'm a firearm's enthusiast and buy the guns I want, regardless of where they're made. I don't consider buying a CZ, Browning, Winchester or Merkel the same as buying cheap Chinese junk or Japanese cars. I buy American whenever I can but it is difficult these days when seemingly everything comes from China. My truck is a Chevy, my bike is a Harley, my UTV is a Polaris and my wife's car is a Buick and that is a point of pride for us. What is funny is to see those who only buy Japanese cars and motorcycles scramble to make excuses for doing so with crap about them being made in the US or domestic cars using foreign parts. Simple fact is that the domestic makers are building very good vehicles at competitive prices. Most of what import drivers believe about domestic autos is outdated nonsense.


Frequently (NOT always), American products are not overpriced, but instead, outsourced products are "underpriced". This is why I'm all for American capitalism, but not globalization. Foreign manufacturers should be able to compete in our economy, but we've not leveled the playing field enough to preserve our own economic integrity. That, in conjunction with our leaders' spending habits is why we're where we are now.
Bingo!

JohnBT
December 30, 2012, 03:28 PM
"America and Americans have have made it so incredibly expensive to do business in America that it's cheaper to send it all overseas"

But Toyota and Honda can build vehicles in the U.S. and make money? Is it magic? What do they know that the U.S. companies don't? There are lots of examples out there.

Heck, Rolls Royce is building a 2nd plant south of Richmond in Prince George County.

"The 90,000 square feet AAMF facility will produce turbine blades and nozzle guide vanes for Rolls-Royce engines, including the Trent 900, Trent 1000 and Trent XWB engines."

76shuvlinoff
December 30, 2012, 03:41 PM
Colt, Kimber, Marlin,Marlin,Marlin,Marlin (none newer than 1980) Ruger, Ruger, Winchester.

Just to prove I am not a total isolationist add a beater Taurus 82, an XD and Dad's bring-back P38.

Texshooter
December 30, 2012, 04:56 PM
Cesiumsponge, Because of current policies that reflect those from the past.

Cesiumsponge
December 30, 2012, 06:58 PM
Cesiumsponge, Because of current policies that reflect those from the past.
Completely understandable. Hopefully history won't repeat itself.

"America and Americans have have made it so incredibly expensive to do business in America that it's cheaper to send it all overseas"

But Toyota and Honda can build vehicles in the U.S. and make money? Is it magic? What do they know that the U.S. companies don't? There are lots of examples out there.

Heck, Rolls Royce is building a 2nd plant south of Richmond in Prince George County.

"The 90,000 square feet AAMF facility will produce turbine blades and nozzle guide vanes for Rolls-Royce engines, including the Trent 900, Trent 1000 and Trent XWB engines."

Magic? Hardly. Labor costs and cost of doing business are a large concern.

Labor costs via unions are a huge burden to American auto companies. Look what UAW and poor investment and management did to our industry. Toyota, Nissan, and Honda plants in America aren't tied down by unions, despite UAW efforts over the last several decades. They treat their employees well and willingly give out benefits and large bonuses as incentives to keep employees. Assuming eventual unionization in the future, you'd still have to give them several generations of incremental union milking like Detroit, and when they start amassing a huge retired workforce that starts drawing on those sweet pension funds, we'll be singing a different tune. Chrysler and GM couldn't even pay their bills without government walfare. FYI, the Toyota Camry won it's fourth award in a row as "Most American-Made Car" on Cars.com’s American-Made Index comparison chart. In fact, four of the five most American-made cars are Japanese brands.

Have you seen the cost of business in Europe? While it has similar corporate tax rates as America, there are a lot more labor restrictions and other miscellaneous taxes. Europe offshores it's job's all over the world too. Germany offshores jobs to Eastern Europe and India...even the USA. I'm sure our Teutonic friends are arguing on their deutschland forums about Americans taking good German jobs from Volkswagen.

If a company in Pennsylvania making American socks is struggling against competition, it has one of two choices:

do nothing, dig a grave and hopping right on in if it's products price itself out of the target demographic
moving production elsewhere to lower operational costs


Which alternative do you suggest? A company going bust employs absolutely no one. A company that offshores will fire some employees, which is a damn shame, but people will find jobs again. Having to fire part of a company's workforce is better than having to lay everyone off. Look what happened to Hostess.

This brings us to another facet that hasn't been discussed yet: serving regional markets abroad. It's why Mercedes and Volkswagen have auto plants in the USA. It's why WE offshore entire production facilities to other countries to serve as a hubs to service markets abroad. Ford and GM have manufacturing facilities in Europe, run with Europeans to reflect European demand and tastes, and markets European vehicles for a European market. These vehicles are not sold in America. Do you really think we could design and market a better product to Europeans with an American factory in America run by American marketing, pay to freight them over by boat and pay all sorts of additional import taxes for a finished product, AND keep the product competitive price-wise to the competition? That's why we sell Holden, Opel, Wuling, and Vauxhalls abroad instead of making them here in a GM plant.

If you want to look at a country that doesn't offshore or outsource at all, you're free to take a look at North Korea and their economy.

osteodoc08
December 30, 2012, 07:04 PM
I own far more "American" guns than
Imported. Ruger, Kimber, Remington, Smith and Wesson, mostly. 1 walther. 1 Sig.

WinThePennant
December 30, 2012, 11:15 PM
One persons says unions create expensive labor. Another persons says unions create strong demand because the workers are well capitalized.

Why is it that we see well capitalized companies as a a good thing, but well capitalized workers are viewed as "too expensive" and "burdensome?"

Vaarok
December 30, 2012, 11:27 PM
Because a worker is supposed to create 3x their labor cost in value-added production to their employer, and unions do their very best to squeeze as much of the profits out of the employer and redistribute it to the workforce.

Ask not what you can do for the company, demand all the company can do for you.

And honestly, working with a lot of immigrant labor, US labor sucks.

Most modern stuff made in the USA has adopted least-cost least-quality methods to remain competitive, and I've been increasingly buying eastern-european products.

I have no allegiance to anything but quality for my money.

JohnBT
December 31, 2012, 12:09 AM
"Magic? Hardly. Labor costs and cost of doing business are a large concern.

Labor costs via unions are a huge burden to American auto companies."


I thought we were discussing offshoring by American companies. I asked how Toyota and Honda can build cars here, but American companies claim they have to offshore to survive.

I don't see that American union made cars fit in this discussion. Maybe if they offshored the production or learned to cut wages and benefits they might finally figure it all out and stop repeatedly dancing on the edge of insolvency.

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