ADKWOODSMAN
December 29, 2012, 09:14 AM
I believe that federal law trumps state law on the transport of firearms from ones home to a winter home. Will someone steer me to that law.:D
Transporting firearms from home to winter rental
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JERRY
December 29, 2012, 09:16 AM
read the state laws where you will be traveling. a state can not prohibit the transporting but they can dictate how it is transported.
steelerdude99
December 29, 2012, 10:51 AM
I believe that federal law trumps state law on the transport of firearms from ones home to a winter home. Will someone steer me to that law.:D
From what I have read on both The HighRoad and other news outlets is that nyc (caps withheld) doesn't like that law and will act as if it does not exist (pause a minute to let that sink in). Unless you have a whole lot of money to defend yourself in court; don't travel via nyc to/from the winter home with firearms in tow.
See link for more info:
http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/articles/2010/guide-to-the-interstate-transportation.aspx
Special Advisory for New York and New Jersey Airports: Despite federal law that protects travelers, authorities at JFK, La Guardia, Newark and Albany airports have been known to enforce state and local firearms laws against airline travelers who are merely passing through the jurisdiction. In some cases, even persons traveling in full compliance with federal law have been arrested or threatened with arrest. As noted above in the section entitled “Federal Law on the Transportation of Firearms,” FOPA’s protections have been substantially narrowed by court decisions, and persons traveling with firearms may want to avoid New York and New Jersey or make arrangements to ship their firearms to their destination, rather than bringing them through these jurisdictions.
chuck
From what I have read on both The HighRoad and other news outlets is that nyc (caps withheld) doesn't like that law and will act as if it does not exist (pause a minute to let that sink in). Unless you have a whole lot of money to defend yourself in court; don't travel via nyc to/from the winter home with firearms in tow.
See link for more info:
http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/articles/2010/guide-to-the-interstate-transportation.aspx
Special Advisory for New York and New Jersey Airports: Despite federal law that protects travelers, authorities at JFK, La Guardia, Newark and Albany airports have been known to enforce state and local firearms laws against airline travelers who are merely passing through the jurisdiction. In some cases, even persons traveling in full compliance with federal law have been arrested or threatened with arrest. As noted above in the section entitled “Federal Law on the Transportation of Firearms,” FOPA’s protections have been substantially narrowed by court decisions, and persons traveling with firearms may want to avoid New York and New Jersey or make arrangements to ship their firearms to their destination, rather than bringing them through these jurisdictions.
chuck
Quiet
December 29, 2012, 10:58 AM
Federal law [18 USC 926A] allows for the transportation of unloaded firearms in locked containers throughout the USA.
If traveling through a state, which prohibits the possession of certain firearms, the transportation needs to be directly through the state (no stays/extended stops).
Federal Appeals Courts have ruled that the Federal law [18 USC 926A] is to be used as an affirmative defense at trial and does not protect a person from being arrested/jailed/property confiscated for violating a state law.
18 USC 926A
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
If traveling through a state, which prohibits the possession of certain firearms, the transportation needs to be directly through the state (no stays/extended stops).
Federal Appeals Courts have ruled that the Federal law [18 USC 926A] is to be used as an affirmative defense at trial and does not protect a person from being arrested/jailed/property confiscated for violating a state law.
18 USC 926A
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
ADKWOODSMAN
December 29, 2012, 12:01 PM
I have CCW in NY where I live and CCW in Florida my destinatoin.
Quiet
December 29, 2012, 12:23 PM
I have CCW in NY where I live and CCW in Florida my destinatoin.
AFAIK...
NY CCW permit + FL CCW permit = can not legally carry concealed in CA, CT, HI, IL, MA, MD, ME, MN, NV, NJ, OR, RI & Washington DC.
In those states, firearms need to be unloaded and in a locked container.
Also...
In IL, MA, MD, NJ & Washington DC, you will need to travel directly through those states (no stays/no extended stops) because they have laws requiring a state issued permit to legally possess a firearm.
AFAIK...
NY CCW permit + FL CCW permit = can not legally carry concealed in CA, CT, HI, IL, MA, MD, ME, MN, NV, NJ, OR, RI & Washington DC.
In those states, firearms need to be unloaded and in a locked container.
Also...
In IL, MA, MD, NJ & Washington DC, you will need to travel directly through those states (no stays/no extended stops) because they have laws requiring a state issued permit to legally possess a firearm.
Ehtereon11B
December 30, 2012, 07:27 AM
States along your carry route to avoid: MD and NJ. They do not honor either NY or FL carry permits. Little caveat if your FL permit is a "non resident" permit, then avoid SC as well.
NavyLCDR
December 30, 2012, 01:38 PM
I have CCW in NY where I live and CCW in Florida my destinatoin.
Federal law also makes it illegal for you to carry a loaded firearm within 1000' of a school in any state except those you have been licensed by (unless on private property and a couple of other specific exceptions). So for you, carrying a loaded firearm within 1000' of a school is only legal in NY and FL. Makes reciprocity pretty much completely useless unless you choose to ignore that particular Federal law.
Federal law also makes it illegal for you to carry a loaded firearm within 1000' of a school in any state except those you have been licensed by (unless on private property and a couple of other specific exceptions). So for you, carrying a loaded firearm within 1000' of a school is only legal in NY and FL. Makes reciprocity pretty much completely useless unless you choose to ignore that particular Federal law.
Bubbles
December 30, 2012, 04:42 PM
States along your carry route to avoid: MD and NJ. They do not honor either NY or FL carry permits. Little caveat if your FL permit is a "non resident" permit, then avoid SC as well.
Best way to get through MD is with the guns unloaded, locked in the trunk, and any magazines must be unloaded as well.
Take I-81 south and you're only in MD for 13 miles. Don't speed through Hagerstown and you'll be fine.
Watch your speed in VA - anything over 80 is reckless driving, a Class I misdemeanor, even if the speed limit is 70.
Best way to get through MD is with the guns unloaded, locked in the trunk, and any magazines must be unloaded as well.
Take I-81 south and you're only in MD for 13 miles. Don't speed through Hagerstown and you'll be fine.
Watch your speed in VA - anything over 80 is reckless driving, a Class I misdemeanor, even if the speed limit is 70.
Highland Ranger
December 31, 2012, 11:56 AM
Best way to get through MD is with the guns unloaded, locked in the trunk, and any magazines must be unloaded as well.
Good point - I think loaded mag even separate and locked away from gun still = loaded gun in MD. Same thing for speed loaders and revolvers I believe.
Good point - I think loaded mag even separate and locked away from gun still = loaded gun in MD. Same thing for speed loaders and revolvers I believe.
unclenunzie
December 31, 2012, 01:30 PM
Just a point on NJ:
There is no state issued permit to OWN a firearm in NJ. Only to make purchases. Gun ownership is not licensed or subject to permits, but acquisition is. One exception is moving to the garden state with guns, so long as they are NJ legal, no license, permit, or registration is required. Having said that, it is always recommendable to obtain a NJ Firearms PURCHASER ID, which allows ammo buying, and to maintain a record of the guns you moved into the state with (receipt, etc).
Not a lawyer, not legal advice.
There is no state issued permit to OWN a firearm in NJ. Only to make purchases. Gun ownership is not licensed or subject to permits, but acquisition is. One exception is moving to the garden state with guns, so long as they are NJ legal, no license, permit, or registration is required. Having said that, it is always recommendable to obtain a NJ Firearms PURCHASER ID, which allows ammo buying, and to maintain a record of the guns you moved into the state with (receipt, etc).
Not a lawyer, not legal advice.
NavyLCDR
December 31, 2012, 02:52 PM
Just a point on NJ:
There is no state issued permit to OWN a firearm in NJ. Only to make purchases. Gun ownership is not licensed or subject to permits, but acquisition is. One exception is moving to the garden state with guns, so long as they are NJ legal, no license, permit, or registration is required. Having said that, it is always recommendable to obtain a NJ Firearms PURCHASER ID, which allows ammo buying, and to maintain a record of the guns you moved into the state with (receipt, etc).
Not a lawyer, not legal advice.
New Jersey Administrative Code:
http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/062408_title13ch54.pdf
N.J.A.C. 13:54-2.2 Permit required
No person, except as provided in N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6, shall carry, hold or possess a handgun without first having obtained a permit to carry the same in accordance with the provisions of this chapter.
There is no state issued permit to OWN a firearm in NJ. Only to make purchases. Gun ownership is not licensed or subject to permits, but acquisition is. One exception is moving to the garden state with guns, so long as they are NJ legal, no license, permit, or registration is required. Having said that, it is always recommendable to obtain a NJ Firearms PURCHASER ID, which allows ammo buying, and to maintain a record of the guns you moved into the state with (receipt, etc).
Not a lawyer, not legal advice.
New Jersey Administrative Code:
http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/062408_title13ch54.pdf
N.J.A.C. 13:54-2.2 Permit required
No person, except as provided in N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6, shall carry, hold or possess a handgun without first having obtained a permit to carry the same in accordance with the provisions of this chapter.
unclenunzie
December 31, 2012, 03:12 PM
Not quite accurate or complete. "Possession" means carry in NJ, which requires a permit. Ownership does not. Here is where it is spelled out in the deny all, then permit, with limited exceptions, language of the state:
2C:39-5 Unlawful possession of weapons.
b.Handguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun, without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime .....
c.Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime .....
d.Other weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any other weapon under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as it may have is guilty of a crime .....
2C:39-6 Exemptions.
e.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, .....
2C:39-5 Unlawful possession of weapons.
b.Handguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun, without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime .....
c.Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime .....
d.Other weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any other weapon under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as it may have is guilty of a crime .....
2C:39-6 Exemptions.
e.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, .....
NavyLCDR
December 31, 2012, 04:14 PM
Not quite accurate or complete. "Possession" means carry in NJ, which requires a permit. Ownership does not. Here is where it is spelled out in the deny all, then permit, with limited exceptions, language of the state:
2C:39-5 Unlawful possession of weapons.
b.Handguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun, without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime .....
c.Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime .....
d.Other weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any other weapon under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as it may have is guilty of a crime .....
2C:39-6 Exemptions.
e.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, .....
And nothing that you have posted indicates that it is legal for me to travel in/through New Jersey with a firearm in the trunk of my car without a New Jersey permit.
Federal law, 18 USC 926A will overturn a New Jersey conviction of a person who is meeting the requirements of that law, but traveling in New Jersey with a firearm in the trunk of the car violates New Jersey law if the person does not have a New Jersey permit.
2C:39-5 Unlawful possession of weapons.
b.Handguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun, without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime .....
c.Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime .....
d.Other weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any other weapon under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as it may have is guilty of a crime .....
2C:39-6 Exemptions.
e.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, .....
And nothing that you have posted indicates that it is legal for me to travel in/through New Jersey with a firearm in the trunk of my car without a New Jersey permit.
Federal law, 18 USC 926A will overturn a New Jersey conviction of a person who is meeting the requirements of that law, but traveling in New Jersey with a firearm in the trunk of the car violates New Jersey law if the person does not have a New Jersey permit.
unclenunzie
December 31, 2012, 05:16 PM
Since we are no longer discussing ownership, apparently, I'll take your post as conceding the point - no licensing or permitting of ownership is required in NJ.
On your new point, regarding transport of firearms, in or through the state of New Jersey, unloaded and in the trunk or in a closed case:
2C:39-6 Exemptions.
f.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent:
<section snipped for brevity>
(3)A person transporting any firearm or knife while traveling:
<section snipped for brevity>
(b)Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or
<section snipped for brevity>
g.All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
Again, no permit or license is required, though it is always recommendable to obtain an NJ FPID, which for long guns only, removes the restrictions on specific travel destinations (as stated in 2C:39-5 section c noted in prior posts). The reference to title 23 is regulations on hunting -- not relevant to simply driving through.
On your new point, regarding transport of firearms, in or through the state of New Jersey, unloaded and in the trunk or in a closed case:
2C:39-6 Exemptions.
f.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent:
<section snipped for brevity>
(3)A person transporting any firearm or knife while traveling:
<section snipped for brevity>
(b)Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or
<section snipped for brevity>
g.All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
Again, no permit or license is required, though it is always recommendable to obtain an NJ FPID, which for long guns only, removes the restrictions on specific travel destinations (as stated in 2C:39-5 section c noted in prior posts). The reference to title 23 is regulations on hunting -- not relevant to simply driving through.
NavyLCDR
December 31, 2012, 06:00 PM
Since we are no longer discussing ownership, apparently, I'll take your post as conceding the point - no licensing or permitting of ownership is required in NJ.
On your new point, regarding transport of firearms, in or through the state of New Jersey, unloaded and in the trunk or in a closed case:
2C:39-6 Exemptions.
f.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent:
<section snipped for brevity>
(3)A person transporting any firearm or knife while traveling:
<section snipped for brevity>
(b)Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or
<section snipped for brevity>
g.All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
Again, no permit or license is required, though it is always recommendable to obtain an NJ FPID, which for long guns only, removes the restrictions on specific travel destinations (as stated in 2C:39-5 section c noted in prior posts). The reference to title 23 is regulations on hunting -- not relevant to simply driving through.
Our OP is not traveling "Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions,". The OP is traveling to a winter home, so your posted exception does not apply.
On your new point, regarding transport of firearms, in or through the state of New Jersey, unloaded and in the trunk or in a closed case:
2C:39-6 Exemptions.
f.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent:
<section snipped for brevity>
(3)A person transporting any firearm or knife while traveling:
<section snipped for brevity>
(b)Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or
<section snipped for brevity>
g.All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
Again, no permit or license is required, though it is always recommendable to obtain an NJ FPID, which for long guns only, removes the restrictions on specific travel destinations (as stated in 2C:39-5 section c noted in prior posts). The reference to title 23 is regulations on hunting -- not relevant to simply driving through.
Our OP is not traveling "Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions,". The OP is traveling to a winter home, so your posted exception does not apply.
unclenunzie
December 31, 2012, 06:16 PM
"Our OP is not traveling "Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions,". The OP is traveling to a winter home, so your posted exception does not apply.
"
That is true. If your point is that NJ law violates certain rights, including the right to travel, I agree with you. If we move towards the practical, the OP would not violate NJ law if he is traveling toward any target range outside of NJ, and his car is pointed reasonably in that direction, and otherwise complies with the travel restrictions. After he has exited NJ, he is outside the reach of NJ jurisdiction.
It might be interesting to note that if he were in the process of moving to his winter home, he would exempted also. But going there for vacation is not exempted, and he would have to rely on FOPA (and 4th amendment) for protection.
"
That is true. If your point is that NJ law violates certain rights, including the right to travel, I agree with you. If we move towards the practical, the OP would not violate NJ law if he is traveling toward any target range outside of NJ, and his car is pointed reasonably in that direction, and otherwise complies with the travel restrictions. After he has exited NJ, he is outside the reach of NJ jurisdiction.
It might be interesting to note that if he were in the process of moving to his winter home, he would exempted also. But going there for vacation is not exempted, and he would have to rely on FOPA (and 4th amendment) for protection.
oneounceload
December 31, 2012, 09:07 PM
Just behave yourself driving until you get to FL and don't sweat it
Put everything in the trunk. Don't drink and drive , or go 95 mph
Geez, this isn't THAT complicated
Put everything in the trunk. Don't drink and drive , or go 95 mph
Geez, this isn't THAT complicated
NavyLCDR
December 31, 2012, 09:11 PM
That is true. If your point is that NJ law violates certain rights, including the right to travel, I agree with you. If we move towards the practical, the OP would not violate NJ law if he is traveling toward any target range outside of NJ, and his car is pointed reasonably in that direction, and otherwise complies with the travel restrictions. After he has exited NJ, he is outside the reach of NJ jurisdiction.
It might be interesting to note that if he were in the process of moving to his winter home, he would exempted also.
How well did the "moving" exemption work for Brian Aitken? I suspect that the "traveling to a gun range" exemption would probably work equally well.
When traveling through New Jersey, it would be wise to ensure that all the requirements of FOPA are complied with and that one NEVER consents to a search by LEO. Of course, one should never consent to a search anyway, regardless of where they are....
Since we are no longer discussing ownership, apparently, I'll take your post as conceding the point - no licensing or permitting of ownership is required in NJ.
I absolutely agree that no permit is required for owning a firearm in New Jersey.
It might be interesting to note that if he were in the process of moving to his winter home, he would exempted also.
How well did the "moving" exemption work for Brian Aitken? I suspect that the "traveling to a gun range" exemption would probably work equally well.
When traveling through New Jersey, it would be wise to ensure that all the requirements of FOPA are complied with and that one NEVER consents to a search by LEO. Of course, one should never consent to a search anyway, regardless of where they are....
Since we are no longer discussing ownership, apparently, I'll take your post as conceding the point - no licensing or permitting of ownership is required in NJ.
I absolutely agree that no permit is required for owning a firearm in New Jersey.
oneounceload
December 31, 2012, 09:17 PM
Why are you even being stopped?
Do the limit ,stay between the lines, all is good going through NJ
Do the limit ,stay between the lines, all is good going through NJ
michaelbsc
January 1, 2013, 11:10 AM
...
It might be interesting to note that if he were in the process of moving to his winter home, he would exempted also. But going there for vacation is not exempted, and he would have to rely on FOPA (and 4th amendment) for protection.
Maybe OT, but maybe not.
As I have stated in previous threads, I maintain a residence in both North and South Carolina. NC is my traditional family home, and my brother and I own about 300 acres of farm. Since I'm closest I handle most of the affairs like paying bills.
Someone - I cannot remember who - posted relavant Federal regs that indicate I can claim to be a resident of NC while residing in NC and a resident of SC while residing in SC, at least for the purposes of purchases.
While traveling between the two what determines status? Sometimes I go to the farm for extended periods, and other times it really is just a weekend away from the insanity of my job.
Is this different because the farm house isn't really a "vacation" home? It's never rented to anyone although other houses on the property are rented to tenants. But my house is never rented.
If I transport between the two am I unwittingly violating interstate transport laws? Or because it's all my guns, my houses am I simply moving my personal property?
It might be interesting to note that if he were in the process of moving to his winter home, he would exempted also. But going there for vacation is not exempted, and he would have to rely on FOPA (and 4th amendment) for protection.
Maybe OT, but maybe not.
As I have stated in previous threads, I maintain a residence in both North and South Carolina. NC is my traditional family home, and my brother and I own about 300 acres of farm. Since I'm closest I handle most of the affairs like paying bills.
Someone - I cannot remember who - posted relavant Federal regs that indicate I can claim to be a resident of NC while residing in NC and a resident of SC while residing in SC, at least for the purposes of purchases.
While traveling between the two what determines status? Sometimes I go to the farm for extended periods, and other times it really is just a weekend away from the insanity of my job.
Is this different because the farm house isn't really a "vacation" home? It's never rented to anyone although other houses on the property are rented to tenants. But my house is never rented.
If I transport between the two am I unwittingly violating interstate transport laws? Or because it's all my guns, my houses am I simply moving my personal property?
NavyLCDR
January 1, 2013, 11:58 AM
If I transport between the two am I unwittingly violating interstate transport laws? Or because it's all my guns, my houses am I simply moving my personal property?
There are no laws against people transporting their own firearms between states, whether that transportation is for moving residences, vacationing, or business trip.
There is a Federal law that says it is absolutely 100% legal for you to transport your firearms from point A to point B, in interstate travel, if that firearm is lawful for you to possess and carry at both point A and point B. The Federal law is designed to overturn prosecutions that would occur if you have to travel through point C where your possession of the gun would be illegal by the laws at point C.
If you are traveling by car from Maine to Florida for a vacation with a gun, the possession of that gun is illegal in New Jersey without a New Jersey permit. Should New Jersey decide to prosecute you for the illegal possession of the gun in New Jersey while on your way between Maine and Florida - the Federal law will overturn that conviction.
The Federal law is 18 USC 926A:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926A
The Federal definition of state of residency for the purposes of firearms transactions is in 27 CFR 478.11:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.11
There are no laws against people transporting their own firearms between states, whether that transportation is for moving residences, vacationing, or business trip.
There is a Federal law that says it is absolutely 100% legal for you to transport your firearms from point A to point B, in interstate travel, if that firearm is lawful for you to possess and carry at both point A and point B. The Federal law is designed to overturn prosecutions that would occur if you have to travel through point C where your possession of the gun would be illegal by the laws at point C.
If you are traveling by car from Maine to Florida for a vacation with a gun, the possession of that gun is illegal in New Jersey without a New Jersey permit. Should New Jersey decide to prosecute you for the illegal possession of the gun in New Jersey while on your way between Maine and Florida - the Federal law will overturn that conviction.
The Federal law is 18 USC 926A:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926A
The Federal definition of state of residency for the purposes of firearms transactions is in 27 CFR 478.11:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.11
Sam1911
January 1, 2013, 12:59 PM
In IL, MA, MD, NJ & Washington DC, you will need to travel directly through those states (no stays/no extended stops) because they have laws requiring a state issued permit to legally possess a firearm.Not sure where this info came from, but there is NO state permit to own or possess a firearm in MD.
In fact, having lived in MD, the laws are annoying but mostly in small ways having to do with purchasing certain guns, and of course extremely limited CCW. Possessing a gun while traveling through -- if locked in a container and inaccessible to you -- is no concern at all.
In fact, having lived in MD, the laws are annoying but mostly in small ways having to do with purchasing certain guns, and of course extremely limited CCW. Possessing a gun while traveling through -- if locked in a container and inaccessible to you -- is no concern at all.
unclenunzie
January 1, 2013, 03:50 PM
Though not from a state law web site, here is what the New Jersey State Police have to say regarding firearms transport in or through the state. Note that NJSP are not permitted to give legal advice:
http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_trans.html
All firearms transported into the State of New Jersey:
Shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel, shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
The firearm should not be directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console.
For additional exemptions refer to Chapter 39, namely 2C:39-6g.
All firearms transported through the State of New Jersey:
The following guidelines are provided in order to assist law enforcement officers in applying New Jersey's firearms laws to persons who are transporting firearms through the State of New Jersey.
New Jersey laws governing firearms permits, purchaser identification cards, registration and licenses do not apply to a person who is transporting the firearm through this State if that person is transporting the firearm in a manner permitted by federal law, 18 U.S.C.A. 926A.
This federal law permitting interstate transportation of a firearm applies only if all of the following requirements are met:
A. The person's possession of the firearm was lawful in the state in which the journey began;
B. The person's possession of the firearm will be lawful in the state in which the journey will end;
C. The person is transporting the firearm for lawful purpose
D. The firearm is unloaded
E. The firearm is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle
F. The ammunition is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle
G. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console;
H. The person is not
1. a convicted felon
2. a fugitive from justice an addict or unlawful user of drugs, or
3. an illegal alien
I The person has not
1. been adjudicated to be a mental defective
2. been committed to a mental institution
3. been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces, or
4. renounced his United States Citizenship
A person who is transporting a firearm though the State of New Jersey in the manner permitted by person's possession 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, see Section II above, need not give notice.
Procedures for Investigation of Conduct Involving the Possession or Transportation of Firearms
A. An officer who reasonably suspects that a person is transporting a firearm in violation of New Jersey law should make reasonable inquiries in order to confirm or dispel that suspicion.
B. In a case where circumstances reasonably indicate that the person's possession and transportation of the firearms my be permitted by 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, the officer should make reasonable inquiries in order to determine whether the person's possession is permitted by that federal law.
C. If reasonable inquiries lead an officer to conclude that the person's possession is lawful under either New Jersey law or 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, as described above in Section II, the officer should promptly allow the person to proceed.
D. Whenever an officer has probable cause to believe that a person's possession of a firearm is in violation of New Jersey law and not permitted by 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, as described above in Section II, then the officer should make an arrest.
http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_trans.html
All firearms transported into the State of New Jersey:
Shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel, shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
The firearm should not be directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console.
For additional exemptions refer to Chapter 39, namely 2C:39-6g.
All firearms transported through the State of New Jersey:
The following guidelines are provided in order to assist law enforcement officers in applying New Jersey's firearms laws to persons who are transporting firearms through the State of New Jersey.
New Jersey laws governing firearms permits, purchaser identification cards, registration and licenses do not apply to a person who is transporting the firearm through this State if that person is transporting the firearm in a manner permitted by federal law, 18 U.S.C.A. 926A.
This federal law permitting interstate transportation of a firearm applies only if all of the following requirements are met:
A. The person's possession of the firearm was lawful in the state in which the journey began;
B. The person's possession of the firearm will be lawful in the state in which the journey will end;
C. The person is transporting the firearm for lawful purpose
D. The firearm is unloaded
E. The firearm is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle
F. The ammunition is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle
G. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console;
H. The person is not
1. a convicted felon
2. a fugitive from justice an addict or unlawful user of drugs, or
3. an illegal alien
I The person has not
1. been adjudicated to be a mental defective
2. been committed to a mental institution
3. been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces, or
4. renounced his United States Citizenship
A person who is transporting a firearm though the State of New Jersey in the manner permitted by person's possession 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, see Section II above, need not give notice.
Procedures for Investigation of Conduct Involving the Possession or Transportation of Firearms
A. An officer who reasonably suspects that a person is transporting a firearm in violation of New Jersey law should make reasonable inquiries in order to confirm or dispel that suspicion.
B. In a case where circumstances reasonably indicate that the person's possession and transportation of the firearms my be permitted by 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, the officer should make reasonable inquiries in order to determine whether the person's possession is permitted by that federal law.
C. If reasonable inquiries lead an officer to conclude that the person's possession is lawful under either New Jersey law or 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, as described above in Section II, the officer should promptly allow the person to proceed.
D. Whenever an officer has probable cause to believe that a person's possession of a firearm is in violation of New Jersey law and not permitted by 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, as described above in Section II, then the officer should make an arrest.
Houser52
January 2, 2013, 12:35 AM
Several years ago I had some work to do in Mass. and would make the trip from N. Carolina by my company van. I wanted to carry my handgun with me for protection while traveling and in the motel room. With all of my research on laws it was made very clear to me that if I was caught with a handgun in most of the northeastern states that I would be treated like a criminal and would spend time in jail and the legal expenses would be astronomical.
Needless to say I didn't take my handgun on the trip and carried a hammer instead. Luckily I didn't need it to defend myself.
Needless to say I didn't take my handgun on the trip and carried a hammer instead. Luckily I didn't need it to defend myself.
Ehtereon11B
January 2, 2013, 03:57 AM
Just don't go through New Jersey. Pennsylvania is much nicer about firearms anyway.
Sport45
January 2, 2013, 04:57 AM
Why are you even being stopped?
Do the limit ,stay between the lines, all is good going through NJ
This works until somebody bumps you at a stop sign and your trunk pops open and won't latch closed again...
You can do everything right and still find yourself trying to explain things. It's best to comply with the law if you wish to be thought of as a law abiding citizen.
Do the limit ,stay between the lines, all is good going through NJ
This works until somebody bumps you at a stop sign and your trunk pops open and won't latch closed again...
You can do everything right and still find yourself trying to explain things. It's best to comply with the law if you wish to be thought of as a law abiding citizen.
unclenunzie
January 2, 2013, 10:40 AM
Pretty sure FOPA would still apply, and in any case it's hard to imagine even in NJ a jury convicting someone who followed the law. But yeah it's a risk of being ground through the system. Avoiding NJ and NY is always a good idea if possible.
NavyLCDR
January 2, 2013, 10:45 AM
it's hard to imagine even in NJ a jury convicting someone who followed the law.
Brian Aitken. Sentenced to 7 years in prison by a NJ jury for LEGALLY transporting firearms between residences in New Jersey. The Governor of New Jersey had to order his release from prison on 20 December 2010. In March, 2012 the New Jersey Superior Court Appellate Division overturned 2 of the convictions and in April the state of New Jersey dropped the remaining charge of illegal possession of a firearm.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/21/christie-commutes-sentence-man-sent-jail-owning-guns/
Aitken had purchased the guns legally in Colorado, and he passed an FBI background check when he bought them, according to his father, Larry Aitken. Brian also contacted New Jersey State Police before moving back back to the Garden State to discuss how to properly transport his weapons. But despite those good-faith efforts, Larry Aitken said, Brian was convicted on weapons charges and sent to prison in August.
Brian Aitken. Sentenced to 7 years in prison by a NJ jury for LEGALLY transporting firearms between residences in New Jersey. The Governor of New Jersey had to order his release from prison on 20 December 2010. In March, 2012 the New Jersey Superior Court Appellate Division overturned 2 of the convictions and in April the state of New Jersey dropped the remaining charge of illegal possession of a firearm.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/21/christie-commutes-sentence-man-sent-jail-owning-guns/
Aitken had purchased the guns legally in Colorado, and he passed an FBI background check when he bought them, according to his father, Larry Aitken. Brian also contacted New Jersey State Police before moving back back to the Garden State to discuss how to properly transport his weapons. But despite those good-faith efforts, Larry Aitken said, Brian was convicted on weapons charges and sent to prison in August.
unclenunzie
January 2, 2013, 11:44 AM
Not necessarily. He apparently was moving some of his stuff from his mother's house to his new place. The law allows transporting firearms between residences when moving, but not from any other place, such as temporary storage at mom's. It's an incredibly stupid law, and I could not in good conscience find guilt in his case (or frankly in any such case).
Also, he was in possession of magazines in excess of the state 15 round limit. These charges were either dropped or tossed out, I forget which, because the police had not physically tested the magazines for function with more than the allowed number of rounds. So on that, a technicality saved him. But the mags probably prejudiced things against him, as there is no place in NJ where they can be legally possessed by an ordinary person.
The laws in NJ need to be flushed and re-written. Until such a time, a person transporting through the state lawfully still takes a risk. Brian's circumstances were a kind of perfect storm, where his mother called the police because she was worried about his mental state. He is reported to have claimed fully researching NJ transport law before moving back to NJ, yet he apparently missed the 15 round mag limitation. He was apparently dealing with a difficult emotionally draining situation with his ex-wife, which probably clouded his judgement. He should not have consented to a search of his vehicle, assuming he did. Perhaps he should have continued on to his new residence and dropped off his guns before turning back to mom's house when the police called him from there. He should not have had to, but there it is.
So as to your point, I was referring to the aforementioned car accident scenario where the trunk popped open, not a Brian Aitken situation. Still your point is well taken.
Also, he was in possession of magazines in excess of the state 15 round limit. These charges were either dropped or tossed out, I forget which, because the police had not physically tested the magazines for function with more than the allowed number of rounds. So on that, a technicality saved him. But the mags probably prejudiced things against him, as there is no place in NJ where they can be legally possessed by an ordinary person.
The laws in NJ need to be flushed and re-written. Until such a time, a person transporting through the state lawfully still takes a risk. Brian's circumstances were a kind of perfect storm, where his mother called the police because she was worried about his mental state. He is reported to have claimed fully researching NJ transport law before moving back to NJ, yet he apparently missed the 15 round mag limitation. He was apparently dealing with a difficult emotionally draining situation with his ex-wife, which probably clouded his judgement. He should not have consented to a search of his vehicle, assuming he did. Perhaps he should have continued on to his new residence and dropped off his guns before turning back to mom's house when the police called him from there. He should not have had to, but there it is.
So as to your point, I was referring to the aforementioned car accident scenario where the trunk popped open, not a Brian Aitken situation. Still your point is well taken.
NavyLCDR
January 2, 2013, 01:14 PM
Still your point is well taken.
And you mention a very valid point as well:
Also, he was in possession of magazines in excess of the state 15 round limit.
FOPA (Federal law) only specifies that a person is entitled to transport firearms from one state to another state. It makes no mention of things such as magazines. There has been no court case that I know of that affirms that the magazines for the firearm being transported are protected under FOPA. Also, in a state such as Ohio, it is illegal to transport loaded magazines for a firearm anywhere in the same vehicle (without possessing a permit). A person can meet all the requirements of FOPA and transport ammunition loaded in magazines. But would the FOPA exemption hold up because the state law against loaded magazines was violated?
And you mention a very valid point as well:
Also, he was in possession of magazines in excess of the state 15 round limit.
FOPA (Federal law) only specifies that a person is entitled to transport firearms from one state to another state. It makes no mention of things such as magazines. There has been no court case that I know of that affirms that the magazines for the firearm being transported are protected under FOPA. Also, in a state such as Ohio, it is illegal to transport loaded magazines for a firearm anywhere in the same vehicle (without possessing a permit). A person can meet all the requirements of FOPA and transport ammunition loaded in magazines. But would the FOPA exemption hold up because the state law against loaded magazines was violated?
Master Blaster
January 2, 2013, 01:32 PM
Further note on New Jersey Law, hollow points are illegal to possess outside your residence, even .22lr bulk pack. Do Not bring any Hollow points, the exception as I understand it is if you purchased them at the store and are driving home with them in the box. A few years back a Delaware State police officer picking up a prisoner in NJ was arrested for having his gun loaded with hollow points. He was allowed to return to Delaware without his ammo. The charges were latter dropped as a professional courtesy. It is a serious offense and can get you one year in prison.
unclenunzie
January 2, 2013, 02:06 PM
In NJ, hollow-points are subject to the same set of restrictions and exemptions as handguns are (without a NJ carry permit, or unicorn). So you can take them to a target range, go hunting with them, etc, from home. As you noted above, the Delaware cop had them in his gun, and he was not involved in an exempted travel activity at the time, apparently.
The NJ State Police web site explicitly calls out what is allowed by way of reference to the statutes.
The NJ State Police web site explicitly calls out what is allowed by way of reference to the statutes.
Master Blaster
January 2, 2013, 07:38 PM
Uncle Kenzie,
Just as I said in reference to the Original poster's question. For him and me and most people Even an out of state LEO on Official business in his state issued car wearing his Police uniform. :barf::barf:
HOLLOW POINTS OF ANY KIND in your possession will land you in Jail. Do Not drive through New Jersey with them in your car even locked in the trunk.
:eek:
Here is the info from the NJ state police website:
http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_hollow.html
If the OP has a Florida Hunting license and can produce it on the spot and is heading there to hunt in season he is ok with hollow point hunting ammo for his hunting rifle. Not for his 9mm Glock though.
Just dont stop to eat, pee, sleep, shop, visit a relative etc.
Just as I said in reference to the Original poster's question. For him and me and most people Even an out of state LEO on Official business in his state issued car wearing his Police uniform. :barf::barf:
HOLLOW POINTS OF ANY KIND in your possession will land you in Jail. Do Not drive through New Jersey with them in your car even locked in the trunk.
:eek:
Here is the info from the NJ state police website:
http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_hollow.html
If the OP has a Florida Hunting license and can produce it on the spot and is heading there to hunt in season he is ok with hollow point hunting ammo for his hunting rifle. Not for his 9mm Glock though.
Just dont stop to eat, pee, sleep, shop, visit a relative etc.
unclenunzie
January 2, 2013, 07:57 PM
Like I said, so long as you adhere to the permitted exceptions, you are not breaking the law. The state has been and continues to be hostile to 2A rights, so even if your advice is perhaps over the top, as it would be for any hunter driving in season with a hunting license, it is not unwise, generally.
For those who do venture the risk of firearms transport through NJ, and wish to have defensive ammo along, some have recommended non-hollowpoint expanding rounds as a viable substitute. Like Federal EFMJ, Corbon Pow'rBall, or Hornady Critical Defense.
Although I have traveled this way myself, I can't vouch for the legal effectiveness of this approach.
For those who do venture the risk of firearms transport through NJ, and wish to have defensive ammo along, some have recommended non-hollowpoint expanding rounds as a viable substitute. Like Federal EFMJ, Corbon Pow'rBall, or Hornady Critical Defense.
Although I have traveled this way myself, I can't vouch for the legal effectiveness of this approach.
Master Blaster
January 2, 2013, 11:19 PM
Why take a chance of getting arrested and having to call a lawyer to get out of jail and get you guns back? The OP can SHIP himself any hollowpoint ammo he wants to bring to Florida via UPS. Better safe than sorry.
steelerdude99
January 3, 2013, 06:08 PM
Further note on New Jersey Law, hollow points are illegal to possess outside your residence, even .22lr bulk pack. ... A few years back a Delaware State police officer picking up a prisoner in NJ was arrested for having his gun loaded with hollow points. He was allowed to return to Delaware without his ammo. The charges were latter dropped as a professional courtesy. It is a serious offense and can get you one year in prison.
So how does that work? DEL officer "I'm here to pick up to pick up the prisoner". NJ officer, "Not until we inspect you weapon." Is that how it is? It's an embarrassment for DEL department for not knowing the law there, but a much bigger embarrassment for the NJ police for being <deleted>. Do they bait other "out of state" officers to come to NJ knowing that they'll have hollow points?
A few years back a caravan NJ state police were either stopped or ticketed (I don't recall) for speeding at about 90 mph in Northern Virgina. It made the local papers. NJ made a huge stink about it saying how the VA State Police were "unprofessional" for their treatment of other LEOs.
chuck
So how does that work? DEL officer "I'm here to pick up to pick up the prisoner". NJ officer, "Not until we inspect you weapon." Is that how it is? It's an embarrassment for DEL department for not knowing the law there, but a much bigger embarrassment for the NJ police for being <deleted>. Do they bait other "out of state" officers to come to NJ knowing that they'll have hollow points?
A few years back a caravan NJ state police were either stopped or ticketed (I don't recall) for speeding at about 90 mph in Northern Virgina. It made the local papers. NJ made a huge stink about it saying how the VA State Police were "unprofessional" for their treatment of other LEOs.
chuck
Deltaboy
January 3, 2013, 06:58 PM
Too bad that VA didn't Send the NJ boys to jail for violating the 2nd amendment on a daily basis.
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