I watched Bowling for Columbine, don't get mad at me.


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mastiffhound
December 30, 2012, 12:31 AM
I've never watched it before, and, well, know thine enemy. It seems to be half anti-gun, half pro gun? It shows the similar situation that happened in 1999 during the assault weapons ban. Also about other school shootings. It was filmed during the AWB too. It talks about how these kids were mentally unstable. Video games, movies and music were also blamed. There was a full on verbal attack on the NRA. The calls for 2nd amendment being repealed. It talks about how we are a gun culture. It shows the Nazi's, the British slaughter in India, and many others.

It shows regular gun owners and some not so regular ones. When he starts screwing with Charlton Heston about a school shooting which of course was not advocated or condoned by him it makes me angry. It talks about how the media, corporations, and government uses extreme scare tactics to rile us all up and be constantly scared. It does a very bad job of being completely anti-gun.

I don't know if most of you know this but my brother, while home on leave from Iraq, was murdered with a gun. The man who shot him wasn't even able to own a firearm. I still cry probably once a week. Sometimes more. I know first hand what it feels like to lose someone to gun violence. So does my other brother and sister. So does everyone in my family. It hurts every day. The day before he was killed he had talked about getting his CCW permit. It hurts to think that it could have made a difference.

Not once did anyone in my family question gun rights or say they should be banned. We knew that a man took my brother from us, not a gun. None of us thought that taking away everyones guns would fix anything. I guess we are not as ignorant as these other morons. I'm sorry but that is what I think. No one can say to me" Well you don't know what it's like to lose someone to gun violence". Sadly, I do know. 99% of these gun grabbers don't know what it's like though. Sorry for the long post but this has been picking at me for awhile. It makes me sick that people are using this tragedy to further their idiotic agenda.

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ColtPythonElite
December 30, 2012, 12:35 AM
I have watched it. I found it entertaining.

stickhauler
December 30, 2012, 12:37 AM
You choice, your time. I've never wasted a moment of my precious time watching any piece of crap Chubby ever made, and don't plan to.

jim243
December 30, 2012, 12:37 AM
No problem, sorry for your loss.

Jim

velojym
December 30, 2012, 12:40 AM
I've watched that piece of propaganda a couple times, and he practices a sleazy form of bait-and-switch in order to drag folks off the fence (because he sounds *so* reasonable), and shellacks them with fake scenarios and sloppy showmanship in the hope that enough will be weak minded enough to take the bait.
The Heston scene was just wrong.
The flashy cartoon sequences would have been right, if the 'fear' aspect had been applied to the victim-disarmament crowd, as their behavior almost perfectly matches the 'scaredy-whites' in the cartoon.
The bank scene was falsified, and made to look as if he opened an account, and was handed a wicked-evil GUN to take with him right then and there. The bank actually gave him a coupon, with which he could pick up a shotgun at a gun shop, jumping through all the hoops he'd have to go through if he were buying it himself.

Check out "Michael and Me" for a better rundown. I can't even imagine a word to describe how low this buttwad is willing to go to promote his pet agenda. Honesty isn't even in his vocabulary.

Your response to your personal tragedy was a more logical approach. The wrong was done by the evildoer, nobody else. Of course, this doesn't work in the mind of a collectivist, so they have to drag in a bunch of other people without including themselves.

wacki
December 30, 2012, 12:44 AM
It bugs me to no end that there isn't a well made pro-2A documentary.

The facts are on our side yet we don't communicate effectively.

Bobson
December 30, 2012, 12:45 AM
I watched it a few years back. I was entertained by it, and I can't say I remember it being significantly anti.

velojym
December 30, 2012, 12:52 AM
It is. If you really look closely at the message in each segment, it's a scathing "indictment" of America's gun culture. Much of the unreasoning fear he attributes to us is merely projection, though.
He even went as far as buying a life membership in the NRA in order to give him some false "gun cred" for this sewer lump of a film.

Dr_B
December 30, 2012, 12:53 AM
I've seen it. I even met Michael Moore once in a Starbucks in Birmingham, AL, around 2002. The movie is garbage and the man is a weirdo. All of his movies are intentionally edited to present a very skewed viewpoint.

wacki
December 30, 2012, 12:56 AM
I watched it a few years back. I was entertained by it, and I can't say I remember it being significantly anti.

Moore says Guns = racism and you don't think it's anti-gun?

9MMare
December 30, 2012, 01:23 AM
Mastiffhound I am so sorry about your brother and am very grateful for his service.

I have not watched that movie. If I do now, I will keep your brother's memory in mind.

Warp
December 30, 2012, 01:29 AM
It bugs me to no end that there isn't a well made pro-2A documentary.

The facts are on our side yet we don't communicate effectively.

A history book that covers the war for independence just doesn't cut it these days, I suppose

Rail Driver
December 30, 2012, 01:39 AM
A history book that covers the war for independence just doesn't cut it these days, I suppose
Not when the liberal minded, anti-gun, government controlled educational system is in control of the curriculum. I finished high school 13 years ago, and I wasn't even properly taught about the American Revolution - I had no idea until just a few years ago that the British attempted disarmament before the revolution began, for example. There are significant differences between the American History I was taught in school, and the American History my younger sister (now 14yrs old) is being taught now. I remember an entire unit on the Revolutionary War (several chapters) - my sister's history book has less than a full chapter regarding the Revolutionary War.

Warp
December 30, 2012, 01:45 AM
Not when the liberal minded, anti-gun, government controlled educational system is in control of the curriculum. I finished high school 13 years ago, and I wasn't even properly taught about the American Revolution - I had no idea until just a few years ago that the British attempted disarmament before the revolution began, for example. There are significant differences between the American History I was taught in school, and the American History my younger sister (now 14yrs old) is being taught now. I remember an entire unit on the Revolutionary War (several chapters) - my sister's history book has less than a full chapter regarding the Revolutionary War.

The quickest way to get people right to the point of it, IME, is to ask them why the first shots of the war were fired. Most people know, but don't really know until you point it out.

The first shots were fired because the Redcoats attempted to confiscate our arms and ammunition (again). We took up arms against the Regulars of the army to keep our guns, cannon, ball, powder, etc

Cesiumsponge
December 30, 2012, 02:33 AM
It bugs me to no end that there isn't a well made pro-2A documentary.

The facts are on our side yet we don't communicate effectively.

It bugs me to no end that there wasn't much support on THR for a pro-2A documentary when the golden opportunity did present itself in the form of a credible, Emmy award-winning scientific documentary maker. Kris Koenig and his crew stopped by here back in September. He ran a Kickstarter campaign for a pro-2A documentary and secured PBS air time (an incredible feat in itself). It got HUGE traction at Calguns and a ton of donations there. During the final hours, a ton of people double-downed and still he barely exceeded his meager goal. He registered an account and started a thread here on THR, and it didn't get much traction. The thread was started September 11, 2012, last post October 8, 2012, only lasting four pages. Myself and several others did our best to keep the thread alive to keep interest but it never got traction here. I did what I could and threw a few hundred dollars at his project. If even 1% of THR skipped a box of ammo and sent $20 his way, we could have blown his budget wide open and provided him with a ton of extra funding instead of his shoestring budget. $70k is not a lot of money to put together a film. I could only imagine what kind of film he could put together if he had raised $100k, 200k, 500k or more.

The thread on THR is here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=676780
Here was the project Kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/assaulted/assaulted
Their site: http://www.deadpatriotfilms.com/assaulted/

Warp
December 30, 2012, 02:45 AM
Dang, wish I knew about that at the time. Missed it

Cesiumsponge
December 30, 2012, 02:55 AM
The website still has an active donation tab. There's a $50 shirt and a straight donation. All the cool Kickstarter schwag is no longer available.

He did a few interviews on various pro 2A radio stations. I was hoping he would snag support from the NRA or some heavy hitters, but perhaps that would make it look like "NRA propaganda". In any case, if you follow the various threads (he registered on a ton of various gun forums to get support), they're going to be doing it strictly by government figures and in a scientific manner so the facts cannot be simply dismissed.

Logan5
December 30, 2012, 03:05 AM
I saw it in the original theatrical release when I lived in DC, and I laughed a lot during the "Africanized killer bees" montage, which I thought was so much on point about how our current media culture alienates us from our neighbors and at the same time is so madly trying to fearmonger about this unknown threat of neighbors you haven't met yet. But then MM went on a mugging spree, abusing having the camera and prep time to make people he didn't sypmathize with look foolish without bothering to give them a fair chance to speak, and he lost me.

HOOfan_1
December 30, 2012, 03:11 AM
Michael Moore is one of the sleaziest people in this country. He is worse than Rosie O'Donell even. One of those people who thinks society at large should take care of all of the problems in the world. One of those people who thinks he knows how best people should live their lives, and that lifestyles should be heavily legislated. He is so short sighted and hypocritical that he can't even see beyond the tip of his nose.

Even a lot of the left leaning people find him deplorable

MistWolf
December 30, 2012, 04:22 AM
I tried to watch it but I had to turn it off it was so nauseating. It was blatantly slanted. Michael Moore is- never mind, gotta keep my comments family friendly

Pilot
December 30, 2012, 07:32 AM
All of his movies are intentionally edited to present a very skewed viewpoint.



All his movies are skewed to attract a un-educated, populist audience so he can MAKE MORE MONEY. That is what it is all about. He can talk a good game about 75% income taxes, and how unfair capitalism is, but watch him shelter his income to pay the least amount of taxes, and shamelessly self promote to MAKE MORE MONEY. Just another liberal hypocrite in the Al Gore, Barbara Streisand mold.

Baba Louie
December 30, 2012, 08:42 AM
An entertaining movie, guaranteed to get your blood boiling or convince you that somethings amiss with gun loving America. Moore did a good job of enflaming emotions and bringing himself to the forefront of mainstream media. Helps pay for food I guess. It really is a great propaganda piece, superb in fact. But Truthful? Kinda sorta not really too much. Just know that going in or coming out.

Several Sites did indepth research refuting the "facts" within his Oscar winning "Documentary"... here's one...

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Neo-Luddite
December 30, 2012, 09:23 AM
I loved Roger and Me. That said;

Michael Moore is a rotten man for the way he treated Mr. Heston. He showed up un-announced and the man was gracious enough to invite him into his home the very next day. He edited the interview to make Heston - a serious Civil Rights supporter who marched with Dr. King on Washington - appear racist. For that alone, and the attendant way the NRA was made appear founded with racist intent, I condemn that fool.

holdencm9
December 30, 2012, 10:35 AM
Not to mention the way the edited the footage to make it seem like the NRA came to Flint the day after that kid was shot, when it was way later (if you watch again, Heston's tie color is different between shots).

Also he went and got a kid that was shot at Columbine before going to Wal Mart to get them to stop selling the evil ammunition that was used in the shooting. Talk about exploitation of children.

The website still has an active donation tab. There's a $50 shirt and a straight donation. All the cool Kickstarter schwag is no longer available.

I donated back in the summer, whatever amount to get the free DVD. I tink response was better than you think it was, and he did eventually exceed their goal. I can't wait to see it.

ColtPythonElite
December 30, 2012, 11:04 AM
X2 on Roger and Me being good.

Deanimator
December 30, 2012, 11:15 AM
That's ok, I've watched "Triumph of the Will", and a few Japanese propaganda films. That doesn't mean that I think the wrong side won the war.

There's a VERY interesting book called "Michael Moore is a Big, Fat, Stupid, White Man". It goes into some detail on the INTENTIONAL lies and deceptions in "Columbine". You might want to find a copy and re-watch "Columbine" in light of what's in it.

Hapworth
December 30, 2012, 12:20 PM
It's understandable but unfortunate you feel compelled to apologize ahead of time for watching Bowling for Columbine or anything like it -- though many of the responses you're getting indicate your prescience in doing so.

But open-mindedly investigating and understanding in a substantial, nuanced way the beliefs, perceptions, overall goals, talking points and especially tactics of any opponent -- political or otherwise -- not only makes you a more rounded, informed and considered individual, but also significantly better prepared to advance your own position and counter theirs than the knee jerk, uninquisitive types are.

Good for you.

mljdeckard
December 30, 2012, 01:21 PM
If I had a dollar for every time I blamed the wrong party for what's wrong with America.....I'd be a fat filmmaker with a ball cap.

KTXdm9
December 30, 2012, 07:53 PM
Nothing wrong with knowing your enemy and/or challenging your beliefs. As mentioned, pretty much all of his films have been debunked. Most importantly, sorry for your loss.

fatelk
December 30, 2012, 08:39 PM
I think it's very important to know what the other side is saying, and just as important to try to understand why they believe it. It might challenge your own beliefs and cause you to dig into the foundations of what you really believe yourself.

That said, Moore is a propagandist along the lines of Goebbels. The truth is completely irrelevant to people like that, so long as they can get weak minded people to go along with them. "The ends justify the means"

Cesiumsponge
December 30, 2012, 09:11 PM
The only people that are freaking out and giving the OP crap about watching something politically/socially aligned in another direction must be folks who feel insecure and intimidated. I've watched plenty of programming that I don't agree with, by choice.

Warp
December 30, 2012, 09:13 PM
The only people that are freaking out and giving the OP crap about watching something politically/socially aligned in another direction must be folks who feel insecure and intimidated. I've watched plenty of programming that I don't agree with, by choice.

I'm not sure what you are referring to as I do not recall anybody freaking out. :confused:

Cesiumsponge
December 30, 2012, 09:19 PM
Perhaps freaking out was too strong a term. There are plenty of M&M threads where people seem to get irrationally worked up when someone brings it up. His work is tripe and garbage entertainment, despite trying to pass it off as a documentary.

Houser52
December 30, 2012, 09:46 PM
I'm not mad at anyone who watched it but I'm not going to and will change channels if I even see MM's face.

BCCL
December 30, 2012, 09:51 PM
I drove a ways to see BFC when it was in theaters, because none around here showed it. Moore is a liar at best, and what he did to Charlton Heston is all the proof anyone needs as to how low Moore will go.

Oddly enough, Marylin Manson made the best point in the whole thing about the media promoting fear.

Trent
December 30, 2012, 10:00 PM
I'm watching this show right now for the first time.

I've already thrown up a little in my mouth, a couple times.

I'm going to do something more constructive with my time for the second half of the movie. Like... go load some ammo in the basement. :)

BLACKHAWKNJ
December 30, 2012, 10:40 PM
Always a good idea to study your enemies, see how they think, express themselves. Rush Limbaugh's harshest critics are people who have never listened to him.

VVelox
December 31, 2012, 12:29 AM
Moore says Guns = racism and you don't think it's anti-gun?
wacki, as some one from Chicago, I find that fairly amusing. Gun control here grew out of Daley the First's racist policies, which grew into what we have today, which is very notably meant to discriminate against the poor, which includes more than a few largely black neighbor hoods.

velojym
December 31, 2012, 12:36 AM
Exactly. No matter what, gun control policy has ALWAYS had, at its heart, the desire to drive a further wedge between the classes, in addition to the economic one: giving the power brokers a monopoly of force.
The poor always suffer the most, and when the idea of gun control reared its ugly head, recently freed slaves were the excuse.

reggie_love
December 31, 2012, 12:54 AM
Michael Moore is a funny guy. He points to a culture of fear and a culture of racism, wraps them up in a really cool theory... and comes to a totally backwards conclusion.

The only ones living in media-generated fear are the anti-gun crowd, who have their roots in racist laws (he even admits to this part).

Seriously, what culture of fear? Did the NRA and that darn gun lobby use advertisements to convince me I needed a gun? Can any one of us here say this is the case? Has anybody who wasn't looking for a gun even SEEN an advertisement for one? The only ones being brainwashed are the idiots who think their neighbors are itching to shoot them up and will get the chance if we don't ban those awful, awful guns; just like the politician with more armed security than any of us will ever be able to afford says. Riiiight. Culture of fear drives the gun owners. Whatever you say, Mike.

He's the left-wing Ann Coulter. When you hear anybody cite him, make a mental note to yourself that this person is incapable of thinking for himself/herself.

Justin
December 31, 2012, 12:59 AM
David Hardy has a phenomenal take down of Bowling for Columbine and all of the outright lies, misdirection, and sleight-of-hand Moore pulls to make his point.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Furthermore, much of what Moore claims about the Columbine shooting is patently untrue. If you're actually interested in getting a reasonable understanding of that event, you're much better off reading Dave Cullen's book Columbine. (http://www.amazon.com/Columbine-Dave-Cullen/dp/0446546925) While Cullen is probably not, in fact, pro-gun, he doesn't generally betray any bias in his book, and he does a damned sight better at research and source-citing than Michael Moore ever would.

Michael Moore is utterly shameless in the lengths he's willing to go in order to exploit his audience in order to make a buck.

rozziboy18
December 31, 2012, 01:00 AM
seems to me there was a movie a while back based on it. i think it was call elephant? good movie, dark but good non the less

Justin
December 31, 2012, 01:10 AM
Elephant was Gus Van Sant's shameless attempt to cash in on school shootings by creating a fictionalized movie based on it.

I never saw it, so can't really comment as to whether it's any good or not. As I recall, however, Van Sant attempts to do some finger-pointing at US gun culture and gets it completely wrong. For instance, showing the killers buying guns mail-order and having them delivered straight to their home.

Warp
December 31, 2012, 02:02 AM
Elephant was Gus Van Sant's shameless attempt to cash in on school shootings by creating a fictionalized movie based on it.

I never saw it, so can't really comment as to whether it's any good or not. As I recall, however, Van Sant attempts to do some finger-pointing at US gun culture and gets it completely wrong. For instance, showing the killers buying guns mail-order and having them delivered straight to their home.

I take it they weren't C&R eligible guns, or guns from the CMP? I am not familiar with what you are referring to, I guess it was about Columbine specifically?

I guess I'll just have to stop being lazy and Google it

Cosmoline
December 31, 2012, 02:28 AM
It's a skillful bit of agitprop. Moore is master at using emotionally intense sequences to keep his audience from thinking very much. He also avoids taking any firm positions. So he can say he didn't call for any bans during the film and he's right. In fact he comes to NO conclusions. And his outright fabrications like the history of the NRA and KKK being linked are presented to ensure he can deny having claimed anything of the kind. But the message is abundantly clear--America is inherently sick and gun owners are at the core of the sickness. It's a message that resonates well with the selected audience.

He's about the worst ally the antis could have. Polarizing, ruthless and interested ultimately only in his own fame and wealth.

VVelox
December 31, 2012, 05:57 AM
Cosmoline, hmm... agitprop... Thanks. Interesting and useful word.

To further expand on the first paragraph, I will throw the word "othering" out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othering

Deanimator
December 31, 2012, 09:57 AM
His work is tripe and garbage entertainment, despite trying to pass it off as a documentary.
Let me go one step farther and state that "Bowling for Columbine" is no more of a documentary than "Jew Suss".

AT BEST, Michael Moore is Josef Goebbels with an eating disorder.

messerist
December 31, 2012, 10:05 AM
I will light a candle for your Brother. Nuff said about the other.

Deanimator
December 31, 2012, 10:06 AM
wacki, as some one from Chicago, I find that fairly amusing. Gun control here grew out of Daley the First's racist policies, which grew into what we have today, which is very notably meant to discriminate against the poor, which includes more than a few largely black neighbor hoods.
As another former resident of Apartheid Chicago, let me throw out a few other things to consider:

Richard J. Daley, the father of gun control in Chicago, was a member of one of the organizations which instigated the 1919 race riot. Oddly enough, Chicago was one of the few cities in the late 19th and early 20th centuries where there was rough racial parity in casualties arising out of a race riot. Why? Blacks were armed and shot back. Not only that, but Black doughboys raided the National Guard armories for weapons with which to defend themselves and their families. My grandmother was there at the time and told me about it decades later. A motivating factor for the Daleys? You tell me.
In ANY discussion of gun control on an online comments section of a Chicago newspaper, a substantial portion of the anti-gun comments will be framed in naked racial terms, and express a need to "control" Black people.

In Chicago EVERYTHING is about race, and gun control as much or more than anything else.

Trent
December 31, 2012, 11:33 AM
Ahh, I felt so much better. My wife made me turn off the TV and sent me downstairs to go load ammo.

"Why are you watching this?"

"Because this guy is a ----- ----- -------"

"If it upsets you why are you watching it?"

"Because this guy is a ----- - ---- ------ ------"

CLICK.

"Go downstairs and make some bullets."

"Yes honey."

Cesiumsponge
December 31, 2012, 12:16 PM
"Why are you watching this?"

"Because this guy is a ----- ----- -------"

"If it upsets you why are you watching it?"

"Because this guy is a ----- - ---- ------ ------"

Reminds me of talk radio. 50% of the listening demographic are head-nodding supporters. The other 50% are people that absolutely hate the show. :D

xfyrfiter
December 31, 2012, 12:19 PM
Michael Moore, Al Gore, Obama , etc, are all George Soros puppets. They are only in it for power and money.

Trent
December 31, 2012, 12:25 PM
Reminds me of talk radio. 50% of the listening demographic are head-nodding supporters. The other 50% are people that absolutely hate the show. :D

Man, I'm like a moth to a bug zapper when it comes to this stuff. I think it runs in the family. I remember my grandfather yelling at the television a lot when he watched the news.

It reminds me of the Two Minutes Hate in 1984. It's like, therapy or something.

HOOfan_1
December 31, 2012, 06:50 PM
And his outright fabrications like the history of the NRA and KKK being linked.

Wonder how he would explain the NRA being founded by and presided over by several Union Generals.

SSN Vet
December 31, 2012, 07:21 PM
Don't you know....

Michael Moore is a big fat liar.

Cesiumsponge
December 31, 2012, 10:11 PM
It reminds me of the Two Minutes Hate in 1984. It's like, therapy or something.

Don't worry, I do the same thing!

Hacker15E
January 1, 2013, 08:25 AM
I think every firearm owner should watch that movie.

As citizens, we endanger ourselves and the security of our continued ability to exercise natural rights by NOT making ourselves smart about what is being said to counter those rights.

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.

If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.

If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.

The OP shouldn't ever feel the need to post 'don't get mad at me' to caveat watching some thing like this. Knowledge is power.

arjppj
January 1, 2013, 09:23 PM
Don't fuss at me, it is only my opinion.....but.....the only thing I got out of it was that Moore kinda says that black people cause most of the crime. His connection with Detroit vs. Canada shows it.

guitarguy314
January 1, 2013, 09:31 PM
It is a good movie. They had to set up the bank scene ahead of time though. A lot of it was rigged.

gossamer
January 1, 2013, 09:33 PM
I could only imagine what kind of film he could put together if he had raised $100k, 200k, 500k or more.

A final product with about 20% of the production budget of the typical MM film.

Just sayin'.

gossamer
January 1, 2013, 09:45 PM
Michael Moore, Al Gore, Obama , etc, are all George Soros puppets. They are only in it for power and money.

Moore's history of popular filmmaking goes back about a decade before George Soros's founding of MoveOn or really his interest in Democratic politics. In fact, Soros has said in a number of press accounts that he doesnt like Moore.

When Moore made his first film Soros was busy manipulating currencies in foreign countries.

Moore is about Hollywood and selling movie tickets. Soros knows squat about that.

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